NSW GPS – It’s Changed Again

Lee Grant October 27, 2012 43

Last week it was confirmed that the NSW GPS 1st and 2nd XV competitions in 2013 will involve just six schools:

Newington College
St Ignatius College (Riverview)
St Joseph’s College (Joeys)

Sydney Church of England Grammar (Shore)
The King’s School
The Scots College

The schools will play two rounds, home and away, and play just one trial game before that.

What are the other GPS schools doing?

Their 1st XVs will play in a competition with the 3rd XVs of the other six schools.

Sydney Boys High School (High)

High was already playing in the 3rd XV competition. It had withdrawn from the 1st XV comp in 2008 after interest in the sport had dropped, as it had in other selective schools outside the GPS.

In 1983 21 rugby teams ran on every Saturday for High, but by 2008 the ethnicity profile of its boys had changed. That year only 32 boys registered for open rugby, compared to 79 for soccer. It hadn’t won a Ones game since 2001 and after a flogging by Joeys 112-0 in Round 1, High forfeited the other 2008 games to protect the lads from injury.

After 106 years the school that produced great Wallabies John Thornett and Peter Johnson, and Wallabies coach Bob Dwyer, withdrew from the 1st XV competition.

High is the only public school in the GPS and selects its students on an academic basis. Alumni have criticised the school for taking such a narrow view on enrolment. As “Steve” said on the SHS Old Boys Union website:

What a disgrace that GPS tradition and history has been sacrificed for the last 15 years to focus on academic intake which was always well above average in terms of HSC results in the first place.

Its time to make some hard decisions and make Saturday sport compulsory again. Who knows, it may even be helpful to focus on sport and develop social skills / friendships that will last a lifetime for even the most academic of students. Perhaps the school ought to increase the weight of consideration given to students who are willing to participate in more than just the classroom.”

In 2011 the High 1st XV played in the 2nd XV comp and struggled, winning just one game, against the Grammar Twos, but in 2012 they played in the 3rd XV competition. They were competitive and beat Newington and Shore.

The Armidale School

Their 1st XV was competitive in the 2nd XV competition last year in every game but one, and they beat Riverview. They should be one of the favourites in the 3rd XV competition.

Sydney Grammar School (Grammar)

Grammar on attack

Grammar haven’t won a 1st XV game in the last 4 years. They decided to have one last try in 2012 but lost all their matches again and shipped over 300 points in their last three. Like High in 2008, Grammar has withdrawn from the top competition for the sake of player safety. The lads played with great heart in 2012 but they will find the 3rd XV competition a lot more enjoyable and safer.

Alumni of Grammar, or Old Sydneians as they are called, are not happy about the deterioration in the rugby results of the school that produced famous Wallabies Alec Ross, Col Windon and Johnnie Wallace. They fear that Grammar will follow High into rugby oblivion.

Old Sydneian, “Pooks”, commented on Green & Gold:

Why does the school continue to recruit scores of pupils only interested in a UAI over 95? The school needs to look at students who give back to the school.

“George Smith”, not connected with the school, mentioned:

The school needs to start from the ground up. That is, the U13s and U14s and start getting really good skills developed in a ‘safe’ environment well before they are really tested in an ‘opens’ age group that is characterised by a whole team of well developed physical and technical skilled players.

To ensure a sustainable solution is obtained a leaf from Grammar’s rowing program is needed. That is, develop core skills, gain a little momentum of success, allow the school kids to celebrate and support the success and then enjoy the ride.

The Super Six

They will find the going tougher with 10 hard competition games in 2013 compared to only 5 in 2012 (plus Grammar.) This will test their depth as the CAS found out when they went to two rounds in 2009.

The draw, not finalised yet, will be trickier for them too. Usually the reserves of a side come from the the team playing before them, but in 2013 the 3rd XVs will often not be playing at the same school as the Ones and Twos are.

Not everybody is happy with the changes and the marginalisation of the weaker GPS schools; certainly not the headmasters of High, Shore and Grammar who are reportedly pointing their academic fingers at the recruitment policies of others.

They may have a point, said “Think About Rugby” in the Green and Gold Schools forum:

GPS rugby is doomed in 2013. The idiots who have taken away the amateur schoolboy game have won. In doing so they have destroyed the competition. I hope they enjoy playing against the mirror! I am sure the trophy will gleam.

But many have been calling for exactly the type of competition that the AAGPS has come up with for 2013: two rounds involving the top six teams, instead of one round and too many trials — but with the proviso that if the other GPS schools prove themselves they should be let back in.

Do they have a chance to get back in?

Eddo

Perhaps the Grammar people, in particular, can take heart from one of their old school captains who made a comeback. As a young barrister he wrote to a friend:

“My prospects are worse than ever – you do not know the slenderness of my chances.”

But things turned out OK later for the Old Sydneian. Edmund Barton became the first Prime Minister of Australia, and one of the founding justices of the High Court.

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About the author: Lee Grant View all posts by Lee Grant

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Discussion »

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/ Matt Rowley

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jb7J8tBObc4&feature=g-all-u
http://www.facebook.com/giles.gibbins Giles Gibbins

speaking as a GPS old boy – this has been needed for a while.
i think the new two rounds format will make the competition much MUCH better.
Johnno

No it won’t work. It still is just a stop gap solution to the bigger problem in Sydney private schoolboy rugby union. What I would do if I made the designs and ran the show it this.

Scrap, CAS, and GPS. All private school unite under the banner of ISA.

And have 2 elite ISA divisions and 1 development division:

1- ISA Northern Zone Division:

St Aloyos, SHORE, St Pius(if there up to it), St Augistine’s, Knox,Barker,

Oakhill Grammar,Joey’s,Riverview Central Coast Grammar : Done- 10 teams :

-1 trial match – Then 10 regular season rounds play 1 team twice – 5 home/5away

-Semi finals- Top 4 : Then GF- played at highest placed semi finals Home school ground:

-Done simple: to the point and local so fires up community inerest and local derbies:

-So 13 matches max in a season:

ISA Sydney Metro ZONE:

East: Cranbrook, Scot’s,Waverley, ST Andrews,

InnerWest/West sydney/GWS:

Newington,ST Pat’s,Trinity, Kings,

ST Gregs campelltown, Kinross Orange, All Saint’s Bathurst,

11 teams – Play each team once – 5home, 5away

-Top 4 semen finals- GF at highest place homes school Ground:

-Done

3rd Tier developmental division:

SCEGSS redlands,PittwaterHouse, Sydney High,Sydney Grammar, Blue mountains grammar, Chev Bowral, Oxley Bowral, Blue Mountain’s Grammar, SCOT’S Bathurst,

Illawara Grammar School .

10 teams- Play 10 games 5 home/5 away

-Tope 4 seimifinals – GF highest place home team school ground:

My System is clear Geographical zones in the 2 elite divisions. Under 1 united banner ISA, no more factions. Clear programs. Flexibility to promote/releagte, expand .

-Player welfare and cost Issuess for parents/schools:

(Less travel time on weekends. Massive relief for parents/players/coaches)

-More local derbies which generate hype and interest and passion

eg Knox VS Joey’s in a real meaningful comp match , not a mickey mouse trial with no value.

SO that is my system. More modern and with the times. No more geographic flip flopping in school boy rugby, unless in 3rd tier division but have no choice there.

2 elite ISA divisions would be clear, competitive ,local derby passion and to the point.
- Barbarian
  
  Disagree totally. The GPS has over 100 years of tradition, and throwing that away for a ‘more competitive’ rugby competition is completely nonsensical.
  
  Some people seem to think the GPS system is simply there to produce a good rugby competition. But it’s far from that- these schools have competed against each other for decades in a multitude of sports and other pursuits as well (eg debating). Rugby is just one of many facets of the relationship. The most prominent facet, sure, but still only one of many.
  
  This is a good system. Despite the proliferation of sporting scholars the GPS comp was closer than ever before in 2012, with premiers Newington winning 3 or 4 games by less than a try. Two rounds is logical and allows for the competition to peak and trough- for example you can afford to drop a game in the early rounds, whereas with the one round comp one lost game meant you were pushing shit uphill to get your hand on the trophy.
  
  Great article Lee.
  - Johnno
    
    Barbarian totally disagree with you points you make some good points but disagree. Times changes, society changes, traditions change, and traditions end. New traditions are formed out with the old in without he new, if you have a better business model. I’m a business man and i always change my business model heck every 2 years.
    
    Aussy rugby is in crisis. We could be so much better. It has been proven in NZ, and south africa having a storng schoolboy comps help the AB’S and Boks be globally competitive. I want aAussy rugby to be globally competitive as much possible, and you ultimately are willing to sacrifice ausys rugby reaching it’s maximum globally competitive potential based on keeping traditions. And your points about rugby academies i say to you let’s make this schools as sturgeon a rugby comp s possible. As ultimately these schools are facilitators to make aussy rugby as globally competitive as it can be . And schools have to step up to the plate and do this for aussy rugby.
    
    You go on about traditions eg other things eg debating:
    -You can still have debating in my model Knox VS joeys in debating is no different to Joeys VS scots in debating. Just gerograhically closer for heavens sake.
    
    -This is 2012 and GPS,CAS,ISA are all outdated business models. Not meeting the needs of modern day parenting, and also society changes.
    
    -Globalisation is here.
    -God ,Queen,Country model of GPS schools are so 1950′s, the schools know it too.
    -All the kids now are no longer just white, christian, or farmers dominated.
    -they are student from all over the World and all religions especially Asian cultures.
    -White middle class christian kids, and kids form Asia have no affinity to the old GPS cultures of Cahtloics VS Anglicans, of “GOD,Queen,COuntry” stuff . It is meaningless.
    -It like the old NSL soccer the GPS model. trying to stlll run along ethnic lines in Australia in twenty 12, SO outdated.
    
    -And Geograhpy nightmare too. Modern Parents in 2012 have no concern whether joeys VS Scots had a passionate rivalry in the 1990′s or 1950′s.
    
    -Most parents now both work, are cash strapped with cost of living increases, and time poor. And would much prefer elite competiion be based on local derbies, rather than flip flopping around Sydney on a Saturday after working all week, to relive 1950′s business models barbarian.
    
    And it would save transport costs for schools with bus hire and petrol costs etc.
    -I having been in a GPS school and played 1st 15 rugby used to hate the travel, and also felt no rivalry or passion with the non local derby games.
    
    -GPS has had to cut to 6 as it is. It is clutching at straws.
    
    -My business model allows, much more competitive standard, expansion,/ promo/relegation, and a 3rd developmental division to help schools get up to elite standard and promotion.
    
    -This is 2012 Barbarian get with the times this is not the 1950′s. Embrace change.
    - The Other Dave
      
      I disagree with this for so many reasons, but I’ll just go for a simple one: you’ve cited geography and cash strapped parents struggling to afford petty (in the GPS? Really?) as an issue, and then placed Riverview and Central Coast Grammar in the same pool.
      
      Regardless, you can spruik this ’til the cows come home, the people you need to convince are the schools, and making a case in the interests of Australian Rugby (however dubious I feel they are) rather than the schools ain’t going to cut the mustard. Especially true if you start attacking the traditionalism and history that these schools use to set theirselves apart from the pack.
    - Johnno
      
      Dave i am talking about geography and Zoning. And as close as possible. Central coast grammar have been integrated already as have Bathurst and Orange, into ISA sydney comps.
      But right now Central Coast have to travel to play teams like iN Bowral, or st Pat’s strathfield. Gosford to Honrsby or lane Cove is a hell of a lot closer Bowral or Strathfield.
      
      So there are some Geograhoichal distances but i am closing them as much as possible.
      And on Geography with GPS, and all this tradition nonsense. You think Scot’s bellvue Hill is not a trek to Kings Parramatta, or Joeys Hunter’s Hill,or RIverview Lane Cove. It’s nonsense . My models have far more local derbies, and not as many big road trips.
      
      And i can tell you in 2012 the regular kid at scot’s feels no joy playing King’s. He looks at it as a long road trip a pest, and would much prefer local derbies meaningful matches vs like cranbrook or waverley much closer to him. As would Knox Grammar Warree. Knox boys get no joy having to travel to Cranbrook Bellvuie Hill.
      
      -Same with barker Hornsby having to flip flop to Cranbrook Bellvue Hill, and Trinity Summer Hiil.
    - David
      
      I’ve got to disagree with you there. I was at Joeys and even though it was a huge slog to go to Scots or Kings we loved it because we were playing against schools that we loved playing against because of the long traditions of playing one another. Travelling to play the other GPS schools is really not that much of an issue. Besides, I’d far rather travel and play a meaningful game than play some local derby with a school I’ve got no association with.
    - Johnno
      
      David you make some good points You went to Joeys cool. New traditions start, nothing lasts forever all tradition starts somewhere.
      
      Are you saying in 2012. you went to the school Joeys and as a fan are you saying it could not have the ability to generate new rivalry and traditions with Knox Gammar for example, or Barker.
      
      Joey’s VS Barker would be awesome in a meaningful match. C’mon mate fair go. I would much rather watch a Local derby or northern ZOne match eg northern zoNEGRAND FINAL Joeys VS Knox at packed hunter’s Hill than, a Joeys VS Scot’s, or Joey’s VS Newington
      
      Both are on northern side of sydney , far georghically closer and would develop fierce rivalry straight away, already play trials vs each other.
      
      Newington VS Trinitys or Newington VS ST PAT’S, far more exciting than a Newington VS SHORE. As much more local derbies
      
      Cranbrook VS Scot’s would develop massive rivalry straight away as in same street basically and suburb. But in different school associations.
      
      A hell of a lot more people i can tell you would prefer to watch Cranbrook VS Scot’s slug it out, or a Knox VS Joeys slug it out in meanginful matches, than say a SHORE VS Newington both on other side of sydney.
      
      Trinity VS ST PATS would be awesome, as would KING’S VS ST Pats.
      
      More trinity kids would prefer a local derby title fight vs st Pat’s than , a CAS match vs Barker any day of the week.
      
      Local derbies sell just look at super rugby with local derby conference system.. And also in rugby league too., and A-league soccer. SYdney FC VS West sydney. Or in rugby league Brisbane VS North QLD, or EASTS VS souths or Bulldogs VS Parramatta.
      But matches like Manly VS NTH QLD don’t sell.
      
      Give me a joeys’ VS knox any day of the week , as opposed to a SHORE VS Newington both on other sides of sydney or a Barker VS Trinity , both far more sterile than a JOEYS VS Knox. Or a SHORE VS KNOX, would be awesome too in a meaningful match.
    - Barbarian
      
      Look mate I’ll be blunt- you have no idea.
      
      You keep citing Newington vs Shore as a ‘meaningless’ game, when it was one of the highlights of the 2012 GPS season. Newington won a nailbiter with the last play being Shore held up over the New line going for the match-winner. It secured the premiership for New. I don’t think too many of the players or spectators (of which there were many) would describe the game as meaningless.
      
      The fact that you seem to think that geographical proximity = rivalry shows to me you probably didn’t go to a GPS school. I went to Shore and I can tell you each and every fixture had meaning if it was against a GPS opponent. No-one gave two shits what side of the harbour the school was on, or how far you ahd to travel to play.
      
      You throw around the word ‘meaning’, well these schools have 100+ years of history playing eachother. If that isn’t meaning right there then I don’t know what is. Joeys don’t care about Knox, I can tell you now. Shore don’t care about Knox. Kings don’t give a flying fuck about St Pats, and never will.
      
      There are issues in schoolboy rugby in NSW. But screwing around with the one competition that works isn’t going to help that.
    - Johnno
      
      Barbarian, mate I’will be blunt you a living in a time warp , and have no idea. Yes some matches will go, but new ones just as good appear. And new rivalries and traditions formed, laws of diminishing returns my model works best.
      SHORE VS Newington you say:
      
      SHORE VS KNOX, OR SHORE VS Barker is a hell of a lot more exciting, and far more rivalries, and kids who know each other to playing neighbouring suburbs on the north shore.
      
      Another one you could say gone KINGS VS SCOT’S .
      
      Well say hello to a battle of Bellvue HIll Blockbuster
      Cranbrook VS Scot’s
      
      And I strongly disagree with you there Knox VS Joey’s would be massive
      
      And KING’S VS ST PAT’S would be huge
      
      As would a KINGS VS ST Gregory’s Campelltown who are getting better.
      
      Battle of western sydney these match ups
      
      AS would Trinity VS ST PATS
      
      ST Aloyisis VS SHORE would be massive to
      
      As would OAKHILL VS JOEYS
      
      And KNOX VS ST Augusitine’s would be massive
      
      Scot’s VS Waverley would be massive match too
      
      As would Newington VS ST PAT’S
      
      You Barbarian are stuck in a time warp and have no idea. And I did go to a GPS school played 1st 15 rugby 1 season in year 12, and found the travel very annoying, and craved more local derbies, far more passionate affairs overall.
      
      Just look at jOEY’S VS RIVERVIEW which would stay as local derby under my model as born on Northern ZONE of harbour.
      
      This is 2012, matches ar eno longer fought on religious ties for example, and the schools are now multicultural schools, all different religions.
      
      Like the old NSL soccer based on ethnic lines is an outdated model, so is the GPS system an outdated business model .
      
      And no the comepetiton is not working it is going okay but is not advanced to the level it could be. It could be so much better school rugby in sydney, and my model shows this. New traditions start and rivalries form, traditions doesn’t last forever, and new traditions that are better start and more relevant.
      
      AND GPS has got weaker, lost 2 teams High and sydney Grammar not up to it. Cut down to 6 now. Hardly working too little teams.
      
      If the quality is maintained local derbies is what sells, in all sports, eg think sydney FC VS west sydney. And same in school zones, more local derby eg battle of bellvue hill cranbrook scot’s”, Joey’s VS Riverview” Trinity VS ST PAT’S”, the better I say Barbarian.
      
      And also less travel costs, easier for parents get to matches, a saturday sleep in lol, easier to get back, less tiring on players so player welfare issues.
    - Antony
      
      Mate I went to Cranbrook. I can think of a fair few Knox guys who quite enjoyed playing us.
    - Johnno
      
      Cranbrook VS Knox is a good rivalry no question. But I bet you’d love a battle of Bellvue Hill local derby VS SCOT’S in meaningful match in the same division , not just a trial as is now.. And that is what my ZONE formats offer. More local derbies. SO for every so called old rivalry lost, just as good rivalries pop up as i have just shown. And also to get to a battle of bellvue Hill you are only a 200m walk, not a 20KM 40minute drive.
    - Antony
      
      Mate of course I enjoyed playing Scots, and I like where your head is at with these conference suggestions – I more meant that Knox enjoyed playing us because they flogged us so easily.
  - The Other Dave
    
    Well put. Moreover, could you see the GPS, CAS and other associations’ member schools accepting a convoluted competition where they lose/dilute their ability to control rules, scheduling, and choice of opposition? If a big competition is desired, there’s already the Waratah Shield.
    - Johnno
      
      The other Dave who do you agree ith me or barbarian i am confused. ANd on a side not with the warpath shield. I am not neccasily saying that, i said to split into 2 elite divisions. And a development 3rd tier division, ,Schools that are not ready to step up. And with my model, even i the 3rd tire schools stpe up. I want to split the Division into Northern Zone and
      Sydney Metro Zone(which covers, East,Innerwest/west/GWS).
      Waratah shield for private schools would get too complicated if all schools were included. I am splitting into 2 divisions. 10 in 1 division. And 10-15 max in the other. Each division i would never advocate getting bigger than 15 or 16. But i am not supporting like 30 team division no way, not enough matches would be had, and it would lose value as too small statiscal chance to win waratah shield.
      
      But the private schools should merge into 1 Association:
      ANd split into 2 elite divisions , divided by Geography. Divided by the Harbour Bridge.
      
      And a development high performance 3rd tier division to help some of the weaker schools get up to standard and join 1 of the elite divisions.
  - Engineer
    
    100 years of tradition unimpeded by progress?
- The Woodman
  
  Quick question, why put All Saints and CCGS in the top division? I know chev defeated central coast this season and didn’t lose by much to all saints. Also, what happens to redfield, the current ISA div 2 champions?
  - Johnno
    
    St Stannies I meant to put there instead of All Saints in sydney metro. Redfield if they are any good can join the Northern Zone Conference. And if Chev and Oxley are up to it they could join my elite Sydney Metro Zone COnfermence. Great thing with my Conferences is the flexibility it creates. You can o so much with it, expand cut down, increase team, change the format etc.
- Stin
  
  And not as much driving for mum and dad!
- Langthorne
  
  “-Top 4 semen finals”
  
  Shouldn’t that be for the ‘ISA Northern Zone Division’?
The Other Dave

Most of us don’t get the chance to participate in sport/music/debating to the same extent once we’ve finished school. Therefore, the most important thing in all of this is that the boys get the opportunity to get out, play rugby with their mates which is why I think the AAGPS did the right thing. Rugby is a professional sport and players, coaches, and officials make their livelihood from it, it shouldn’t be too surprising that a considerable gap has emerged between the stronger and weaker rugby schools.

This way, boys from High and Grammar can still play on Saturdays and not have cricket scores put on them; if they want to make sport and more specifically rugby a priority, that’s up to the school admin, families, and old boys (and government in the case of High). For what it’s worth, I’d like to think that High could maybe give a little bit more consideration to the student who has healthy cultural and sporting interests (and I don’t just refer to rugby); even the Rhodes Scholarship takes extra-curricular activities into account, without the need to be a world-beater. As it is, if more High boys want to play soccer (not really my thing, but neither’s Nicki Minaj), that’s their choice and the GPS caters for this as well. On the other hand, it’s possible that a proactive rugby department might be able to encourage more kids from outside ‘traditional’ rugby-playing backgrounds to play; they may not win 1st XV premierships, but many of them will discover what we all have been lucky enough to.

As an aside, isn’t it interesting that such a gap has opened up in Sydney, yet in Brisbane, Grammar turned things around and won the 1st XV premiership this season? Weren’t BGS threatening to withdraw from the 1st XV competition a few years back?
sjc

@disqus_8ekyhilojH:disqus as a current Joeys boy i can tell you that i, along with the majority of boys at GPS schools would disagree with what you’re saying. I would rather trek it out to Kings then play Knox or Barker anyday. The times haven’t changed all that much mate and the GPS competition still means as much to the boys as it did in the 70′s and 80′s. No boy could care less about geographical zoning. I agree GPS schools should play more trials against CAS and ISA schools, but not as a replacement for the GPS comp. And even if i did agree with your idea it will never ever happen, the GPS isn’t just about rugby, its so much more. Good day sir.
- Johnno
  
  sjc I went to a GPS school to mate,. Scot’s played 1st 15 , i am a bit older i played in the 90′s. Yes it was good days, but all models and conferences and traditions end. You may say you want to go to King’s cool . But I’m sur many other kids ay joeys would love a Joeys VS KNOX GFinal any day of the week. A SHORE VS KNOX would be MASSIVE MASSIVE. And a Battle of Bellvue Hill Cranbrook VS Scot’s Massive as well. I admit you lsoe a few games but for every 1 fans complain they lose i the bussnessman come up with something better.
  And saying GPS isn’t about rugby it is so much more is nonsense too when you think about.
  And the geographical zoning stuff i beg too differ, iw as in the 1st 15 and did hate the travel. I hated traveling to kings at Parra, and hated going up to Northbridge to face SHORE, and Hunters hills and lane cove to face joey’s and Riverview, so yes travel did annoy me.
  When if me begin a scot’s old boy i had 2 great rugby schools cranbrook literally next door neighbour, and waverley down at bond junction. Nothing at all no hassles, a good sleep in etc.
  And under my format Kings VS scot’s would still happen as that would be sydney metro zone anyway.
  
  The only matches that i miss under my format would be these ones:
  King’s VS Joey’s
  Knox VS Cranbrook
  Joey’s VS Scots
  SHORE VS Kings
  SHORE VS Scots
  
  But the law of diminishing returns you for every loss get masses of good matches back , that is a salesman and give you just as good matches and more and some better too:
  Knox vs shore Massive
  KNOX VS JOEYS massive
  Cranbrook VS Scot’s Massive
  Kings VS ST Pat’s Massive
  Knox VS ST Pius Massive
  SHORE VS ST Aloyo’s Massive
  SHORE VS ST Augustine’s massive
  Knox VS Oakhill Massive
  Knox VS Riverview Massive
  ST Pat’s VS Trinity Massive
  As well as keeping matches like Barker VS knox, JOey’s vs Riverview, KING’S vs Scot’s
  Newington VS ST Pat’s Massive
  
  SO i have given lot’s of big matches under my format more than current formant
- http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/ Matt Rowley
  
  Such a well behaved young man!
http://twitter.com/TomH4Eva Tom H

@Johnno That you keep on referring to the GPS as an ‘outdated business model’ shows that you just don’t really get it. This isn’t the NFL we’re talking about; no-one’s trying to maximise market share or trying to increase TV viewership by orchestrating the greatest number of ‘blockbusters’. These are kids playing rugby on the weekend. Over the past 15 years or so there has been a concerted effort by the GPS to play down the competition’s presence in the media, essentially going in the opposite direction to what you propose. Schoolboy rugby isn’t about money or exposure, it’s about winning fixtures that have happened for a century and therefore have meaning.
- Johnno
  
  Tom H. You go on about winning fixtures for hall a century , and there for must have meaning. Nonsense . There comes a time where the term borderm and player welfare set in. Joey’s now keep beating High and Grammaer so badly at 1st 15 level that they can’t even play them anymore for player welfare issues or at least in High’s case. Grammar tried this year in 1st 15 and were smashed. Now on that theory we just keep GPS going to what there are only 2-4 teams that might compete, and never allow any team in.
  
  Traditions change too. And so should GPS , it is an old outdated association. And Tom H heck one should think about making money and attracting enrolments, and connecting with the local and broader community more it helps kids development. And the kids love playing in front of 10,000 people and on tv. Ask any of the kids int he 90′s who played GPS rugby they loved the big crowds, and the pressure and excitement and hype.
  
  And yes you are dead right Tom H. The concerted effort by GPS to close down it’s prescience in the media, has really hurt interest in rugby union. GPS have made it clear they are a closed society , a private society and the wider sydney population can butt out , form being nosey or taking an interest in them. That pretty much seems ot be there mission statement if based on there Actions. They have made it celar they ar not rugby academies and they are not, but what if i ask you TomH by GPS closing down there media exposure to the wider population i would argue they have closed of a really good avenue for wider socket to take an inters tin guy like in in NZ/STH Africa. Huge tv ratings for school rugby have done wonders for getting wider interest to new audience sin rugby, and thus heaping create more depth.
  
  Obviusly when push come to shove TomH GPS schools the people that mange them are ultimately if it means we are less globally competitive in rugby , then so be it it is not there responsibility to help or harm it. Well don’t complain when the ARU start doing what rugby league is doing and set up elite under-15,16,17, 18, teams. As NZ friends tell me all the time the standard and business models of NZ rugby are much better and the tv ratings are through the roof and look who ar world champs , and it is not us, and SA has far more depth than us too, and they also have full tv access to school boy rugby.
  
  Rugby league is ambitious as part of there tv deal the GIO schoolboys comp is now going to be on FTA tv next year or on foxtel.
  
  GPS clearly don’t want too or don’t see it as there responsibility to help rugby in OZ to maximum levels,, and ultimately don’t care enough about contributing keeping Australian rugby globally competitive when push comes to shove, and making there comps more higher standard. Sad for rugby.
  
  And you’d think they’d want more of the greaster sydney population knowing about there schools and what goes on , clearly a more closed or private or sheltered image or society it want to poetry. Sad indeed as so much potent could be done if they opened there doors to the greater sydney public more.
http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/ Matt Rowley

There’s an element to what Johnno is saying that I like – getting the schoolboys comps into something that generates broader interest and unites rugby more rather than keeping strange pockets of historical competition.

However, I’m just not sure that’s realistic in the way he’s structured the new comp, for the reasons that everyone else in the competition has outlined!

Probably the best you could do is try and get the comps timed better so that a more involved cup style comp (like a schools Heineken Cup) could also take place on top of the leagues – a more inclusive and comprehensive Waratah shield.

If that got traction maybe you could challenge the status quo?
- Johnno
  
  Matt exactly. You hit the nail on the head broader interest. Wider interest of school boy rugby in the community, and also in local areas where these schools are. Tv deals for 1 would be good, but also local derbies like i said that what generates most interest . Old NSL soccer has the same problem as GPS rugby.
  Like a closed society it was only on ethnic lines massively marginalising a huge majority of aussy population. Same with GPS schools too. Flip flopping 6 teams all over sydney metro, with no modern or relevant links to each other as much anymore. Very outdated model this GPS format in 2012. Resembles the 1950′s and 1980′s when rugby was an amateur game and society was different but not a modern global city like Sydney. SO old world like a relive form the 1950′s in OZ the GPS system, and CAS too. I find ISA the most progressive out of the 3 overall.
  
  With regards to waratah shield . I think there are now some public schools vs private schools sevens events. Very hard in 15 a side to align public VS Private.
  
  Simple reason is saturday school sport. Public schools basically don’t do saturday school sport , part of there teacher conditions at most schools. The overtime payments would kill state government budgets, and unions would demand masses of conditions eg triple time etc, . So saturday school sport will never happen again in most public schools on a consistent basis outside of the occasional rep game, or sevens weekend , or a waratah shield grand final.
  
  Think Super rugby where i got a lot of my thoughts from, and the old outdated NSL soccer moving to A-league.
  SUper rugby has loaded up on conference system. (Higher tv ratings $$$,crowds interest and local interest in majority of teams.
  
  -Old NSL soccer was done on ethnic lines now has branched out more.
  
  -With my System
  -1 Assocatiaon centralising power
  (You get more organisation, just look at NZ rugby centralising there super rugby teams , been more successful overall than OZ’s program),. this works for super rugby in Europe private clubs are better.
  
  -And GPS model is outdated. Rugby needs more traction and interest at schoolboy level. A more localised conference model does that-tick
  -A Tv deal -Tick would be good to like NZ/STH AFrica school has. The old faddy duddy GPS system said no to it.
  
  -And in 2012 the greater Sydney public honestly can’t relate to GPS rugby, GPS rugby fans are the minority, and in decline i think too. It worked in the 90′s some greta times, but society has evolved eg globalisation, more Asian immigration, where as GPS has not. And anyone who says Asian people don’t like rugby have rocks in there head and are the types who are ignorant and the sort of old school God,Queen,COuntry, old school tie, strong ties to farmers(nothing wrong with farmers but they ar not the only GPS type of kid in 2012, nor a bankers,lawyers,doctors) new type weatlh eg rich tradies who went to public schools. white middle class christian types that have GPS rugby in the 1950′s. And im someone who believes Australia should stay a monarchy but more the image of this Britannna rules the world or england rules the world attitude.
  
  Heck the name GPS in this definition is so outdated: Greater Public Schools:
  -No one calls private schools public schools anymore not even in ENgland they don’t for heck sakes. Just shows how out of touch head int he sand 1950′s time warp GPS is living in with it’s governance , and arcahic system . The rest of society has changed and has evolved GPS in sydney have not.
  
  Heck even the ARU are having a governance review. A GPS going to be the last line in the sand. In a global city like sydney a 6 team elite comp is simply not enough teams simple as that.
  
  -And with my local derby stuff: All government school comps in any sports are based on geography so long as teams or schools are good enough to make the division
  
  -GPS was based on schools having similar cultural values(eg god,queen,country,christian, pro England, excluding rugby league, keeping rugby amateur etc, jolly good lad attitude, old school tie)
  ANd also the inter christian rivalries too eg cathlocs VS anglicanVS Chucrh of england.
  
  -In 2012 AUstralia has changed, : Totally multicultural, all religions, and cultures, many students not sons of old boys sons of kids who went to govt schools.
  
  -Queen less of a figurehead in Austrlaian society on a daily basis and she wont live forever and prince william will maybe take over.
  
  -All these GPS schools have large Asian student background, and many kids go to these schools who are not christian anyway,a nd GPS don’t care they need the money.
  
  -The rise of soccer too has more market share now too in these schools, as does basketball with cricket in summer the last 20 years.
  
  -So these schools are moving with the time with getting students of more diverse backgrounds but there business models are way out of touch and archaic and old school tie style like the ARU governance model still runs the show.
  
  -We have big problems in aussy rugby and it all starts at schoolboy and GPS is one of many reasons to blame. NZ/South Africa have much better schoolboy set up, smaller countries but they have local city comps and also national comp to in schoolboy and tv coverage to get interest we have none of that.
  
  -We beat NZ schools this year good effort but NZ still has more depth than us, and wins most of the time anyway at school boy level. And the strength of your national team is not always a reflection of the state of the game or sport in your country.
  
  -Think west indies cricket mid 90′s but basket case domestic comp and internal politics,, and aussy rugby team ranked 2 in world but same as south africa in reality, but our super rugby teams have been a mess as has the ARU how it manages the game has been a mess, Decline of shute shield etc, and also the decline of GPS rugby eg it is no where near as big as it was int he 90′s, for media coverage or crowds, and knowledge of all the players.
  
  -New conference models needed that are more modern and more competitive. 6 teams is not enough, and the travel times could be reduced big time by my conference models. And united banner centralised association all under 1 banner too much better to help rugby union.
- Barbarian
  
  I disagree. Schoolboy rugby is the last true bastion of amateurism in our game. It needs to be kept that way, and not spoken about in terms of ‘the wider game’.
  
  The GPS and CAS comps are one of rugby’s major strengths in Sydney. Taking away the historic rivalries would be frankly disastrous, and erode the one thing the game has going for it.
  
  I have frankly stopped reading what @disqus_8ekyhilojH:disqus is spouting, every 1000 word essay just makes me realise he’s a bit of a dill. Why would the GPS schools want ‘more exposure’? For christ’s sake enrolment at these schools are through the roof, they have waiting lists a mile long. These days you have to enrol before your kid is born FFS. And the lack of media coverage doesn’t have anything to do with the schools, they don’t control what the papers cover, they never have.
  
  I am all for the GPS looking after itself here. They are one of the few rugby bodies who have a product that works, and that people want to see. It consistently produces great rugby year after year. I wouldn’t be totally opposed to a wider ‘champions league’ style tournament post-season but at the end of the day it just isn’t going to happen with the HSC being where it is. You only have so much time, especially with the widening rep calendar.
  - Johnno
    
    Barabrian
    
    “I disagree. Schoolboy rugby is the last true bastion of amateurism in our game. It needs to be kept that way, and not spoken about in terms of ‘the wider game”
    
    - That opening quote of yours just shows where your head’s at. Rugby is professional and shoud have that attitude , not amateur ideals and values , the fact you like rugby having an amateur bastion shows you are a tradionilists and living in a time warp again Barbarain so backward.
    You probably were the type of fan that was disappointed rugby went professional and don’t believe in more imports coming into super rugby. You sound like a tradionilist, and traidtionislists always hold back progress and rationalisation in sport.
    
    Historic rivalries that do not have the same meaning for kids in 2012 for all the reasons i have said in my many comments.
    
    And as shown by grammar and High’s demotion .
    - Barbarian
      
      And yet you have had a CURRENT student come and tell you that the historic rivalries DO have the same meaning. I’ll take that over your generalisations and crazy proposals thank you very much.
      
      And yes rugby is professional but schoolboy rugby isn’t and never will be. Any move towards making it more professional should be opposed. Let schoolkids be schoolkids.
    - Johnno
      
      Barabarian the kids don’t know any better coz know one gives them a voice or tells them a better model. they have just had it ingrained into them, that long distance travel is fine and don’t know how much easier it could be.
      So i suppose under your theory then, of letting schoolkids be schoolkids, you would then be opposed to the commercialisation of schoolboy rugby league. As part of the $1 billion dollar NRL rugby league deal. School boy rugby is going to get massive boost.
      
      Next year the GIO schoolboys rugby cup is going to come into being and is going to be on pay tv. I suppose then you are opposed to that, a big multinational corporation like GIO sponsoring a schoolboy rugby tournament, and with it going ot be on pay tv as well. I suppose that is over commercialisation and to proffesional then for your levels for schoolboy sport.
    - forthefunofit
      
      Water polo is one sport where CAS/GPS play in a combined competition. It works very well. Sure, compared to Rugby, it us a minor sport. It has needed a combined comp because not all the schools played, or play it. It is growing. Now only 3 GPS schools do not play it: SHORE, Kings and Grammar.
      
      In looking at this long debate above, I know Johnno is getting very annoying to many of us (me included). And as a parent of a CAS student and a GPS student there is much to be said of traditions and rivalry.
      
      I think there are two choices. One would be for the Waratah Shield to be the competition that get promoted and pushed. It has a grand history. It is a knockout format. It involves private and public schools. It would be great if NSWRU or ARU could assist in getting it a TV deal, or whatever. That way, each school can play in their own systems and then shoot for the recognition of NSW champion via the Waratah Shield. If promoted well, then maybe all of the good GPS schools may choose to compete? The point being, they need to choose.
      
      My other option, would be to let the CAS and GPS and ISA schools play themselves in a 1 round competition, crown the victor with the relevant trophies, etc. Then play the 2nd half of the season in a divisional system based on performance in the CAS, GPS and ISA comps. 1st division and 2nd division and 3rd division. Best schools against best schools, etc.
      
      It preserves tradition, and modernizes formats and pathways for the schools/boys more serious about the sport. After all, it is a valid pathway into a profession. But that is not why everyone plays. Isn’t it great going out and watching a 6th XV play for the fun of it?
    - Johnno
      
      forthetunofit
      
      you make some good points , and however much I may annoy you and others on here, you at least acknowledges in reality that things can’t stay the same, and seem other options have to be looked at. And maybe the waratah shield or other formats.
      
      Reality is is this it’s 2012 not the 1950′s and things can’t stay the same if Aussy rugby is to be globally competitive..
      Kerry packer changed cricket int he face of tradiotnislits types in the 70′s (there seems to be a lot of tradiotnlsits on here at least in this thread),
      
      Test cricket now is changing with the prospect of day/night tests, and talk of coloured clothing too.
      
      A-league soccer changed it scrapped the old NSL.
      
      Reality is the CAS/GPS comps are not competitive enough. 6 teams each play each other twice 1st past the post is , massive setup backwards and doesn’t work or maximise it’s full potential.
      
      Either the private schools CAS/GPS which only number get in the real world and help the ARU, and let the ARU have a bigger say in there rugby programs , like in NZ where the NZRU take a big role and a heavy input in directing there sports prgorams.
      
      Or the ARU ditches them and says right we will go down the rugby league model and create elite junior comps eg under 18 -16 , like in rugby league where the NRL clubs have Harold Matthew/SG Ball.
      
      If the private schools do not see it as there responsibility to help the ARU in making the wallabies be the no 1 team in the world then i say to the ARU after this review then just let the CAS/GPS schools be and we will go down our own elite pathways without them.
      
      I still say they should merge with CAS/GPS/ISA, to create a stronger division.
      And there should be a whatever it takes attitude to make the wallabies the no 1 team in the world, and sacrifices need to be made at all levels of rugby in OZ, and traditions scrapped if need be to achieve that.
      
      How serious are the CAS/GPS schools in making the wallabies be no 1in the world again, at the moment not serious enough as they are not willing to merge and make a super division.
      
      If they as single entities then, they should embrace the warpath shield, or have a champions league style play off series, and should embrace commericlaizion eg Corporate sponsorship, on there jerseys of school teams, and naming rights of cup eg Mcdonald’s cup/Coca cola cup.
      
      Water Polo seems to be working with CAS/GPS combined for the funofit well rugby should too.
      
      Your format for the fun of it could work, but the ultimate sacrifice these schools could make is to merge divisions and create a super league division and have the best teams in divisions either 2 elite divisions, and a 3rd tier high performance division.
      
      The waratah shield they should go in too. But when push comes to shove if these schools do not see it as there responsibility to be as elite rugby comps as possible for the ARU they should be moved on , as the central area where the ARU depends on developing elite talant.
      
      And the ARU should develop elite junior clubs from shut shield teams etc, pump money into them. But such good facilities at CAS/GPS schools make it perfect location to develop semi-proffesoinal elite divisions. And a pay tv deal would be perfect, just the headmasters being such a conservative lot didn’t want school boy rugby to get to big. Says it all really about there lack of ambition and where there priorities really are and how backward that is.
    - SS
      
      As an ex GPS student of minimal rugby talent from the early 80′s and enjoyed playing at various places until the early 90′s – and with two teenage sons (at non GPS private schools) who have no interest in rugby – all I can say is just watch out for the AFL!
      Rugby needs to re-invent itself quick smart to stay relevant – and not just at a school level. This zone idea seems fantastic. I will never forget the game when Scots 1st XV beat Joey’s in 1980, but we all have to move on, not backwards.
    - Johnno
      
      The beauty of my Zone idea, is joey’s vs Scot’s could still happen, but like super rugby in a conference format, North zone VS greater sydney zone, so come semi final’s and grand final time they could still meet for like a sydney cup or basically a waratah shield. Your point about re-invention is exactly that. And AFL hot on the heel’s. A warpath shield with all the CAS/GPS schools in would be a start, or just 1 big merged private school conference. AFL/NRL move with the time’s, rugby in OZ has to, as it’s becoming a dinosaur rapidly in OZ. It will end up like water polo, volleyball, field hickey, type popularity with in 10 years if it doesn’t get it’s act together soon.
  - http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/ Matt Rowley
    
    Mate, you’ve misread me. I said keep the current comps, just look how we can build on it.
sjc

@disqus_8ekyhilojH:disqus I happened to mention your idea to a group of mates today at school. I asked if they would rather a 10 round home and away GPS comp over a ‘zoning comp’ against Shore, View, Knox, Barker, Aloys, Auggies etc. Everyone of them looked at me as if i was stupid, and said of course they would rather the GPS comp. I then asked if they thought a Joeys Vs Knox or Barker game was bigger then a Joeys vs Scots or Newington one, again they all said the GPS fixtures. I then asked mates at Scots and View the same questions and got the exact same responses. I think it is safe to say that the majority of students, teachers, old boys and parents at GPS schools would much rather keep the tradition then change to a more ‘geographically’ friendly comp. Again, it will never ever happen anyway, so please give it a rest.
http://twitter.com/scrumblue Steve Bell

Holy shit – @disqus_8ekyhilojH:disqus is certainly passionate about this topic.
Old Prop

I do not agree with “Think About Rugby”. SHS and SGS have been dwindling since the late 1990s. The rest have kept up the tradition, these two schools have not and their boards should be ashamed. What about the age old question of combining the top 4 CAS with top 4 GPS? Why shouldn’t the better players be allowed to play competitively. The relegation system works for Subbies, English Premier League soccer and most other sports around the world. Would you want to play tennis with 7 year olds if that is all who is left at the tennis club?
Two to the Valley

Very sad. Don’t know anything of Sydney GPS rugby, but surely there would be schools willing and able to take the place of these schools. Worrying times for rugby nurseries I would say.
Polo

QLD GPS should play NSW GPS at end of season , that would be great to see at Suncorp or ANZ , School boys rugby is a great style off Rugby , The ARU should look at it, All the old boys then Qld v NSW what more do you need , we’ll trade Cooper for an up and coming 5/8 from Sydney