PODSLAM 80 – rofl. With SANZAR CEO Greg Peters

Steve Timms October 10, 2012 18

No GravatarMatt presents us with the next instalment of “CEOs of World Rugby” with his Interview of SANZAR boss Greg Peters (who could be next?). Jack and I then join him for a wang on all things Australian Rugby.



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  • bludge

    i like these references to “richie” now. where’s this come from? years of bleating about foulplay, an OBSESSION with mcCaw, the guys on your T-shirts, he’s in the sound-bytes… you’re absolutely obsessed with rubbishing him and suddenly you’re referring to him in the same manner as “sharpie” and whatnot.

    weird. i assume this is man-love in a stockholm syndrome kinda way. right?

    • ooaahh

      I’m the first guy to scream at the TV when he’s playing but you gotta admit, the guy is just an awesome player.

  • Dally M

    Another great Podslam guys & i look forward to your grilling of J O’Neill on the next one.

  • mxyzptlk

    Interesting discussion about Super Rugby expansion into North America…

    That’s where I’m at, would absolutely love to see some real push behind the sport in this country, and something like SANZAR stepping into this sports-mad market would make a huge dent. But it won’t be easy. Right now the U.S. couldn’t support a Super Rugby team; they’d make the Rebels and the Lions look like the Crusaders.

    *BIG BREATH — long comment ahead*

    SOME ARGUMENTS WHY RUGBY COULD/MIGHT NOT SUCCEED IN NORTH AMERICA

    (To ward off eye coma, skip down to the IN SUMMARY)

    The time might be right to make some moves; rugby union is the cousin of our own gridiron, and gridiron is facing some significant issues right now (as seen by the season opener of South Park, “Sarcastaball”). At the high school, NCAA and professional levels, there are some real concerns over debilitating neurological injuries that rugby just doesn’t have (at least to the same degree). A study done with the Univ. of North Carolina football team a few years back showed that even in practice, the linesmen were taking the equivalent cranial impact of a low-speed car crash again and again and again, and it’s leaving a brown sheen of scar tissue on the frontal lobes of their brains. This is leading to all kinds of unknown problems in football players later lives — Alzheimer’s-like symptoms, MS-like symptoms, ALS-like symptoms, depression, dementia, etc. It’s similar to a heavyweight boxer being punch-drunk, but to a different degree. American football players at all levels become bigger and more powerful, and the padding and helmets just aren’t keeping up with the damage done. In fact, arguably the helmets are the problem, because they mask repetitive low-level damage, for the same reason why boxers tend to experience more brain damage than mma fighters — the 16 oz. gloves do less damage than the 4 oz. mma gloves, so the boxer is more likely to recover from a hard shot and come back for more than the mma fighter, and end up with more damage over time. Similarly, the helmeted gridiron player is more likely to get up from a head knock that should have him sitting out for a game or two, and that leads to some real concerns.

    Those concerns are being felt at all levels of the game, and that’s creating an opportunity for rugby to make a push in North America. Rugby isn’t the safest game in the world, but it’s a damn sight safer than gridiron, and caters to more athletic types. It requires a broader variety of skills and a different kind of strength and conditioning, which can appeal to a lot of high school age players. Gridiron also favors the biggest and strongest in each position, which leaves a lot of capable players who’d love some game time kicking dust on the sidelines. Those athletic kids who are just a few kilos shy of being able to play the front line on their football team, but are too ungainly for the darters on the soccer team, may make the perfect lock or flanker. There are plenty of running backs just a shade too small for varsity who would only need to see a Shane Williams highlight reel to see what they can do with their particular skills in rugby. Since the tackling in union requires more technique, they’re also less likely to get up maimed, which will make administrators and parents happy.

    And they’ll get game time. A lot of game time. In rugby there isn’t a two-minute break between each tackle, plus time for a mandatory celebration. And in rugby, the tackle is where a huge part of the game actually begins, so they’ll know they’ve participated in a real athletic endeavor.

    [Sidenote: I grew up in a Green Bay Packer country, but lost my heart to rugby after living in Ireland for a few years. Recently, after loads of ITM Cup, Pro 12, Premiership and TRC, I tried to watch a DVR'd Packers-Bears game. About an hour in, the game was only part-way into the second 15-minute quarter -- commercials skipped. Watching the game stop after every tackle was jarring, let alone the post-tackle celebration and 2-3 post-tackle replays of the 11-second play just seen. It was more like watching drills than a game, and I had to watch Counties Manukau-Otago and Ulster-Munster to cleanse the palate. I'd have even taken some league at that point.]

    There’s also an untapped class of athlete in the Upper Midwest of the U.S. that would make perfect rugby players — amateur wrestlers. Speaking from experience (I did it up into college), it’s a huge sport there, especially with the advent of mma. It’s a weight class sport so you get athletes of all sizes. Wrestling’s also a winter sport, and the strength and conditioning required for rugby is just about perfect for off-season wrestling training (wrestlers generally look for off-season sports to stay in shape). And many of the skills used in wrestling translate very well into rugby — rugby tackles, the breakdown, clearing out rucks, scrummaging, all require specific skills that wrestlers use all the time. There are thousands and thousands of Upper Midwest wrestlers who want to compete in a contact sport (it’s why they’re wrestlers) and can’t/won’t bulk up to the necessary size for gridiron because that kind of size can really hurt their wrestling. Rugby could be perfect for them.

    But this is all at the lower levels, not a pro level. Right now it’s unlikely the U.S. has enough players, or enough overall talent, to field a competitive Super Rugby team. They’re coming along in sevens, but if Argentina got into Super Rugby, a 15s series between that Argentinian Super Rugby team and the U.S. team (or a joint U.S./Canadian North American team) would be well-received and good jump-start. If there was a Premiership/Championship structure, then a North American side at the championship level could be possible, and might draw some of the NA players from abroad back for part of the year. North American rugby won’t grow in stature unless and until the best North American players are actually playing their best in North America, at least some of the time.

    However, there’s another issue to deal with; how the game is televised in the North America. Sevens works okay because it’s tailor-made for commercial breaks, but 15s isn’t, and commercial appeal is the One Ring to Rule Them All when it comes to American sports. The sideline billboards and sponsors on jerseys would go over well, but not the uninterrupted play (see the above Packers-Bears comment). Not only would broadcasters balk at not being able to slather the programming with beer and viagra ads, but its doubtful the U.S. attention span could deal with much more than seven minutes of uninterrupted play. (More people in the U.S. watch the Super Bowl for the ads than the game.) We’re a long way off from dealing with that as a problem, but it’s a problem nonetheless. There are a total of 22 minutes of commercials for ever hour of U.S. programming; would you just cut out from the game for 22 minutes every hour? Would you just delay what’s broadcast while the game goes on in order to get all the ads in? It’s a conundrum.

    IN SUMMARY:

    – Gridiron football in North America is dealing with some long-term injury difficulties, and that could be a chance for rugby to step in and sweep up some players (crisis/opportunity, and all that);

    – There are a lot of athletes who would like to play football but lack the specialized size for a particular position; rugby has something to offer them;

    – Rugby is a more free-flowing and active game than gridiron, which can be more satisfying for young athletes looking for an outlet;

    – North American amateur wrestlers could more easily pick up and be really successful at rugby;

    – Rugby in North America could be very successful at the school/college level, but it’s unlikely they’re ready for Super Rugby competition, unless it was at a Championship level. (Maybe a joint U.S./Canadian side?)

    – Televising rugby in the U.S. could be an issue; in general we have the attention spans of excited puppies, and broadcasters are probably more interested in selling commercial time than the programming itself, which could clutter up how we actually watch 15s.

    • mxyzptlk

      …I’m really sorry about that… should have read it to my wife before posting.

      • Dave

        Don’t apologise. I like a good long comment. It’s like a bonus article.

        Success is of course built on spectator appeal. And I feel that Americans just don’t get rugby and I fear never really will. Similar to how most Australians, kiwis, etc don’t get gridiron.
        I’ve heard some speak negatively of rugby’s unstructured style of play (I’m not even going to mention what they think of the shorts). I’d imagine if someone is so used to american football, the switch to watching rugby would be a difficult one. Mainly because they are so accustomed to the highly choreographed plays of the NFL.
        It would be great to see rugby successful in the US. I don’t see it happening, even in the near future. The NFL is too entwined into the US culture. Rugby will always be seen as the unorganised, nonsensical, poorer cousin.

        A while ago I was interested to find a version of American football that doesn’t utilise offensive and defensive teams. The one team playing both roles and thus requiring more all-round skills in a particular position for the individual player. Although the physicality of the offensive line-men compared to defensive line-men is on a par (it seems to me) one player requiring the skills for more than one role may go some of way to reducing the need to do the same thing over and over and therefore encountering a higher risk of repetitive injury. It may be a way to go in the future if this is indeed the case.

        • Dally M
        • Dave

          I imagine his outlook may be different if he backed the WBs in that game.

          Seriously though, a good write-up. It’s good to get a perspective like this. I think we often forget about smaller things that we enjoy about this game.

          It’s interesting his opinion about the Haka especially that it makes the WBs look like frightened children. The scoreline probably didn’t help in this regard either.

        • Dally M

          Unfortunately to get the average American across the rules or any newcomer i suppose, you need to have someone there to patiently explain to them why things are occurring etc. Once they get the gist of it, they are usually a fan as they love the continual contest for possession which sets Union apart from NFL & League etc.

        • mxyzptlk

          That Grantland piece was pretty good. It missed a few things — even my wife kept going “Hey!” at some of his suppositions; we can’t just import the Haka to the U.S., but we thought maybe we could get the Cleveland Indians could do a rain dance before games.

          I think you’re right that for the sport to take off in the U.S., you’ll need sort of an army of translators who can explain the game while it’s going on. I got my dad to watch the Vegas 7s, all of it, and then a Leinster match. After a couple days, he said he was starting to understand the open field play, ‘but then there was a tackle, and it seemed like chaos for a minute, then it all started again. I didn’t quite get that.’

          My wife was a different story. She began by watching me watch the latest World Cup, and after getting a few of the basics down with me to explain a few things, she fell headlong into complete fanaticism. Now that’s all she wants to watch at night. She gets fierce during games and terrible things come out of her mouth. But her favorite is to point out when someone’s off their feet at the ruck — eagle eye, that one.

          So from those two experiences, I think the sport could take off in the U.S. if it’s properly introduced. College sevens is growing, and with the Olympics coming up, I think we’ll see more and more NCAA and NFL football players cross over to chase some yellow metal.

    • Dally M

      If American’s can sit through a 3 hour Yankees v Boston baseball game or through a Basketball game, i think they can handle 40 mins with stoppages for scrums, lineouts & after points are scored.

      It’s the big untapped market along with Asia that Rugby needs to get into in a professional manner, but not sure how SANZAR can get go about getting them in to SuperRugby. Do they do it one team at a time or do they expand & add 5 new teams at once & create a whole new conference?

    • bill

      I don’t think rugby union will suplant grid iron, but they’ve got something like 1500 rugby clubs, there would be a market for it that would grow.

      Sevens in the olympics could be a big boost in terms of college programmes. Even allowing current nfl guys(linebackers/ends/corner backs etc) an avenue to the olympics. I mean pure ball players like Marques Colston would fit in well with a sevens layout.

      Grid iron isn’t quite the slouch sport it’s made out to be, and rugby with subs isn’t quite the aerobic challenge it was.

    • Gooddog

      As an aussie who has lived in the states on 3 occassions I’m all over this issue:
      a. You talk of wrestlers but the other major group is gridiron players from High School who did not get into College teams or College players who did not get into professional teams. There is basically no amateur gridiron in the states so if you miss out on College or professional, your playing days are over. There are a ton of great athletes who play their last game of footy at 18 or 21.
      b. Rugby is growing rapidly – Rugby participation in the US has grown significantly in recent years, reportedly growing by 350% between 2004 and 2011 (admittedly from a low base).By 2010, the number of registered players in the US had grown to over 81,000, moving the US ahead of Wales and Scotland in terms of playing numbers. A 2010 survey by the National Sporting Goods Manufacturers Association ranked rugby as the fastest growing sport in the US.
      c. Rugby in the US is based on sevens and college – both of which are booming.
      See – http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/jun/24/american-sports-fans-warming-rugby
      Las Vegas and college sevens are now a big event.
      d. Rugby has been close to a professional national league for some time but as its strength is still in College, College sports requirements causes havoc with timetables.

      • Dally M

        There was somthing on the Rugby Club last night about a guy trying to get a professional union comp off the ground in the US & he claimed to have been in talks with NFL owners and the proposal was to run it in the NFL offseason & utilise the MLS (Major League Soccer) grounds etc.

        Sounded good in theory, but i doubt they would get the numbers of quality players they were talking about – 25 man squads with 13 imports & the rest US or Canadian rugby players.

      • mxyzptlk

        a. You’re right about the gridiron players who won’t go on to college or pro — that’s kind of what I meant when I talked about the football players who won’t crack varsity because they’re a bit small for that particular position. There actually is some lower ranks for gridiron, but it’s pretty negligible. There’s the UFL now, which only has like 4 or 5 teams, and there’s arena football (and indoor version of 7s for gridiron). There’s also lower-level leagues, but they’re the kind where the player pays to play (a buddy of mine did that in Texas).

        b. Yep, rugby is the fastest-growing sport in the U.S. It’s always been more prominent in the northeast, California, and has a foothold in the mountain west. But it’s growing enough now that high school football coaches are getting nervous; I’ve read of at least once case in Massachusetts (I think) where the football coach would let athletes on his team who played rugby in the off-season.

        d. There have been a few abortive attempts at a semi-pro competitions in the U.S. — like our own Super League, which is actually rugby union. To be honest, it kind of baffles me; it currently has I think 10 teams and recently shrunk, there’s a lot of friction between them and USA Rugby that I’m ignorant of, and it seems they’ve just shut down as a league and are now running as a cup competition alongside the D1 club competition (like the Heineken Cup running alongside the Pro 12, Top 14, and Premiership).

        Ruggamatrix America covers a lot of this stuff, but its a far cry from GAGR. It’s kind of like listening to a post-board meeting chin-wag, with a lot more discussion about contracts and overall competition structures and a lot less about actual game play. I kind of force myself through it because I live in the U.S. and feel a little obligated.

  • Mart

    Great podcast fella’s. I was going to have a whinge about the gaps between podcasts, but geez you manage to pull some serious guests on now.

    Awesome work, your rants speak for all of us.

    Matt. Spot on with the Deans/ O’neill analogy.

  • bill

    As Timms said we’re pretty horrible to watch at the moment.

    That Deans is an authoritarian in style isn’t a problem, being an authoritarian and producing shit rugby is.

    Last year during the world cup after we beat SA i found myself thinking even if we win it all I won’t be enjoying it because it’s so f*ing awful to watch.

  • Scotty

    bang on boys, your sentiments about not being able to NOT watch totally reflect mine.
    they might be horrible but they’re still my wallabies.

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