Sub-par substitutions: What the hell happened?

Matt Rowley October 1, 2012 85

No GravatarDon’t know about you, but I was pretty dumb-founded the Wallabies management out subbing themselves in Pretoria, effectively self inflicting a second yellow card as they played the last 10 minutes with 14 men (and even fewer at times as players continued to hit the grass).

Sept? Oui, Sept.

Well, here’s how someone who knows what they’re talking about explained it in an email to me -

The Wallaby coaches and management let the players down last night in relation to the substitutions for two reasons:

1. Law 3.12 says that if a player is substituted they cannot come back on except in the case of a front rower where they may replace another front rower who is injured or temporarily suspended.  This exception is in place to avoid uncontested scrums.

In recent matches the Wallabies have rotated Benn Robinson and Ben Alexander.  When Robinson comes back on, Alexander doesn’t even feign injury.  The Wallabies coaches obviously read the laws and despite being against the spirit of the law they decided it would be a clever move.

To breach the spirit of the law like that brings the game in to disrepute but last night that decision came back to bite them and more importantly the remaining 14 players on the field.

2. The Wallaby coaches obviously considered the Laws before implementing this rotation policy but failed to understand the Laws well enough to prevent the debacle last night.  The laws relating to this incident are:

3.9 The referee has the power to stop a player continuing on – as he did with TPN.

3.4 A team can replace two front row players and five other players – which is where the seven replacements comes from. However 3.12 also applies in regards to front row players.

3.12 Provides an exception for front row players who have been replaced coming back on to replace another front rower.

Exception 2: a substituted player may replace a front row player when injured, temporarily suspended or sent off unless the referee has ordered uncontested scrums prior to the event which led to the front row player leaving the field of play and the team has used all the permitted replacements and substitutions.

The word ‘and’ means that both of the conditions must be in place before the referee can stop a substituted player coming back on to the field.  The uncontested scrums condition had not been satisfied when the Wallabies attempted to bring Faingaa on.

Did the Wallabies have a substituted player available to replace TPN? Yes, Ben Alexander who wasn’t injured.  The referee was right to stop Faingaa coming on but couldn’t have prevented Alexander coming on.  It is not the job of the referee to give the Wallabies options – he is only there to apply the Laws.  Once he announced that scrums would be uncontested it was too late to then try and bring Alexander on.

Did the Wallabies coaches and management know the rules or did they think the referee wouldn’t know the rules or would not pay attention?  It was the Wallaby coaches decisions that caused the team to have to play with only 14 players. Sure, Robinson would still have had to throw the lineouts but having 15 on the field would have had helped.

The Wallaby coaches and management failed the players and at international level that is unacceptable.

Clearer now?

Discussion »

  • McKenzie

    I read that a 4th referee told them that they could do it.

  • SKippy

    Amateurs.

  • BloodRed

    As if we needed any more evidence that Deans and Co are not up to it. That was unforgivable, not to mention that the cynical “rotation” of uninjured props is the most despicable of substitution strategies in the game. Not only is Deans bankrupt of ideas, game strategies and selection policies, he can’t even count to seven.

  • Ooaahh

    You cant really blame Deans, prior to this years rwc he thought a bench was a park seat.

  • RJ

    Deans has been subbing off his props in the first half only to come back on at the 65 minute mark all year through “well timed injuries”. Its pathetic, and has come back to bite him.

  • suckerforred

    Let’s face it, He is not the only one that does it. But yes it is still unforgivable for the management & coaches to loose count and place the team in that situation.

  • Atawhai Drive

    The subbing of Gentle Benn at the 30-minute mark is a shabby, cynical ploy that I hope we’ll never see again.

    And if Gentle Benn isn’t fit enough to go the distance, then it might be time for him to fiddle with his headgear somewhere else, such as Japan.

  • Dally M

    Not sure on the rules but apparently the IRB has said the referee & officials got it wrong.

    • johnny-boy

      Some evidence would be good Dally M, or I am missing the humour ?

      • Dally M

        http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/rugby-union/toxic-tweets-put-spanner-in-works/story-e6frg7o6-1226484941261

        “Irish referee Alain Rolland refused to allow reserve hooker Saia Faingaa to come on to the field in the 71st minute to replace Polota-Nau because the Wallabies had already used up their seven substitutions, which included prop Benn Robinson being subbed out tactically early in the game and brought on again later.

        And Polota-Nau was not permitted to stay on because the Wallabies doctor had told Rolland he was unfit to continue.

        It is cold comfort, but it is understood the Wallabies checked the ruling with the IRB and were told they should have been allowed to make the sub.”

    • http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/ Matt Rowley

      At best the 4th official made a mistake in not realising that what the Wallabies management were trying to do was wrong.

      Does that make what they were trying to do right? Clearly not.

      Moral of story – If you’re going to try and game the system, make sure you know your stuff.

  • Duncher

    hmm hmmm hmmm toxic environment

    • bill

      hey does this make Quade the Toxic Avenger!??: Cultish 80′s d grade flick.

      • Nutta

        Hey – no way!

        “Toxic Avenger” was brilliant and besides I was saving it for a Quade slag-off!

        Damn…

  • Goldie

    It was all Quade Coopers fault!

  • adc

    Surely this must be the final straw for Deans and co

  • first time long time

    This rotation of front rowers is not new it has been going on for years and we used to complain when South Africa did it will Ollie Le Roux. There is a simple solution.

    If you sub a front rower and need him back due to a genuine injury you should have to play a man down and take someone else off. I am completely at ease with the ref’s decision and hope they get even tougher on it.

    I want to see players out on the field getting tired. That is when guys like shipperly and digby will tear a game apart.

    The only thing all these substitutions does is sure up the defence leaving fewer gaps and less broken field play. It does not make for a faster game as league has found out with the interchange.
    And what do we get? The over analysed rubbish that is test rugby at the moment.

    I wish they would start televising schoolboy rugby so we could see how well the game can be played.

  • Brumby Runner

    It was another embarassment for all Wallaby supporters. Unforgivable.

    Reminds me though that a couple of years ago, the ABs returned a substituted No9 to the field after the replacement suffered an injury. How does this line up with the Laws?

    • Jay

      It was Jimmy Cowan who was replaced from memory – I think the AB’s managed to convince the match doctor that Cowan had a cut mouth (to go with his rather obvious knee injury). I’d hesitate to accuse the AB’s of Harlequins style blood capsules, but there’s little doubt in my mind that it was the knee injury rather than the cut mouth that caused Cowan to go off.

    • Jay

      But, just to clarify, Cowan did actually come back on the field after some treatment for the ‘blood’. He was in some fairly obvious discomfort from the knee injury though.

      • skip

        i was scrolling down looking for this. It was cowan back on for ellis incorrectly (illegally). Who knows whether it was deliberate (or whether Sir Grahame decided to mention it in his book) book it probably would have cost NZ the log points had they won. That’s why you didn’t hear much about sivivatu’s claim for a penalty try that would’ve given them the lead and momentum, it would opened the obvious retort.

        The point is RD and his staff at the time were going nuts about it to get cowan back off. He knew then that it can go badly wrong, why not now? why are we always making the same mistakes?

        • Jay

          It wouldn’t have cost NZ any log points as they lost the match (it was the Sydney 08 Bledisloe that the Wallabies won).

          The AB’s/Cowan were on to it/dishonest enough to make sure that the doctor took note of the blood at the time Cowan was subbed off, I recall, which is why they were allowed to sub him back on. Dodgy, I guess, but rorting the substitute system isn’t exactly a new thing in test rugby – the reason they allowed optional subs in the first place was due to so many sides blatantly faking injuries to sub on a fresh player for instance.

        • Skip

          yes, that’s why I said ‘had’ they lost.

          whichever was the illegal sub was pulled back but he saved a certain try before hand, hence why camp dingo was going nuts.

          the point is, it was cock up not acceptable at test level. a long string of unacceptable at test level things in planet ARU

        • Dave

          They did what a lot of teams do and make the sub citing blood first (if available) to keep their options open.
          It was hardly illegal (unfortunately) yet it was taking the piss.
          What RD did was just as legal and equally as dodgy.

  • redbull

    So will the ARU remain silent as the national team becomes and international joke?

    JON, Cooper, Deans, Nucifora, whoever the team manager is. Everyone one of them can f@*k right off. I am sure as hell not going to support AFL or NRL, so someone had better fix this unbelievable mess.

    • Sandpit Fan

      Haven’t you heard?

      JON is too busy trying to stop Echo burning to worry about inconsequential shite like Aus Rugby circling the plughole. :)

    • spectator

      Deans has a proven eye for raw rugby talent and has a focus & talent for the basics.

      The crusaders essentially did the basics very well, which combined with a more power game, flowed on very well.

      The Wallabies are not going to have that kind of dominance in the forseeable future against the top teams however.

      I would have someone else, with an inclination towards flair play, in charge to combine with Deans.

      Probably the best & most exciting play the backs have produced, was that one against the pumas when it was just Cooper, Barnes & Sharpe the lock, against about 6 to 8 opposition players. Cooper and Barnes naturally combined in their lines and timings to schism the well proven Puma line at the same spot and put a lock, Sharpe, through a hole.

      It was classic back play in motion.

      That’s where the Wallabies need to develop as a pattern. It’s less a game plan to be followed as it is one to prepare properly for.

      Also, more nuance in what pressure is, would help. The Wallabies need to develop a short kickin attack game to blunt more dominant forward packs and associated flow on opposition defence, through running them around backwards at high intensity – in effect leading the forward effort from the back in giving a leg up which can then be taken advantage of by the forward pack in a more easily grasped pressure way.

      Ball in hand is not the issue, it is in applying & building up the right kind of pressure that suits a teams strengths.

      Fans have to realistic, the Wallabies are not going to have the constant power game of the A.B.s nor the more harnessed contemporary Boks anytime soon.

      • johnny-boy

        Woo hoo we’re ranked no.3 ! Yahoowee. I’m so happy !. Thats more than we could ever hope for ! Oh wow that’s so great !. Those world cups we won must have been flukes and holding the Bledisloe for 5 years, it must have been bribery. Yay we’re no.3 … crack out the champagne – it’s celebration time ! Deans is the greatest demi-god super coach guru of all time . All hail Robbie Deans – what a guy to confuse the opposition with 14 players. Wow, breathtaking cunning.

        There’s no way McKenzie will be any better cos he will select exactly the same players as Deans, coach them the same, motivate them same (hey you’re not all blacks you’re second rate) use the same cunning tactics – so lets stick with Deans …. it’s so much fun and we are so overachieving – woohooo !

        Sarcasm is all that’s left…..

        • skyblue

          Dont think we deserve to be no3 really.

        • ‘Boutbloodytime

          Number 3 til this weekend or November at the latest when we’ll be fielding a club level starting XV after everyone else has been stretchered off following courageous individual play & getting smashed all over the park as we sink to another all time low after getting rolled by Italy…

          But then cynical substitution ‘strategies’, unclear gameplans, selections based on reputation, substandard fitness levels in key players & poor use of the bench may all be excused at club level…it’s just an absolutely diabolical shame we have to be subjected to it at international level…

          I feel bloody sorry for the players & have the utmost admiration & respect for them for fronting week in week out to get hammered for their country, their fans, team mates & the Gold jersey…after another coaching/administrative clusterfuck!

          FFS, this farce has to end…put a broom through the ARU, that’s the only way to rid the whole organisational level of this cancer, give the new coach absolute carte blanche to select any & all support staff they require (like Cheika has at the Tahs & Macqueen when he coached the Wallabies) hold the head coach totally accountable & start turning this ship around…

          Someone somewhere has to be held accountable properly for a change & give the rugby loving public a proper answer to the questions that the fans ask every bloody week after another dose of brain explosions at the coaching & management level.

          As much as I think Deans is horribly out of his depth, I can’t believe this is all down to him…JON & others weilding the power at the ARU have to be held accountable cos the current situation is tantamount to having a 4 year old running round the house with scissors…it’s ridiculous & irresponsible.

          At this rate, we will be lucky to make up the numbers at Super level for the next 2 seasons after our key players are further decimated by brainless decision making by the ARU/coaching brainstrust & we’ll be lucky to be in the top 5 after the November tests, causing us to no longer be a seeded side in the RWC2015 group stages, (I don’t know if that’s a mathematical possibility but every northern hemisphere team must be licking their lips at facing us at the moment with good reason), then we’ll get absolutely spanked by the Lions…

          Unfortunately, all of this is a distinct possibility & fucking depressing to think about…but currently we merely face a re-run of bringing back injured players too soon, only for them to get smashed again with possibly/probably career ending injuries (eg: Drew Mitchell) & Australian rugby is damaged beyond repair for the next 2 to 5 years…or longer.

          I can’t believe Beiber is still out injured/re-injured…the cynical side of me thinks he may be protecting his ‘brand’ in a more intelligent way than QC & possibly Quade has been more on the money than us members of the public have realised…

          Every time I read another Sydney Morning Herald sycophantic suckfest in favour of the status quo at the ARU, the more I’m absolutely convince that something stinks…

          Bloody hell, that\s 5 years of pent up frustration finally spewed out over my keyboard…I need a lie down after that rant…

        • johnny-boy

          Beiber is not the only one who will be keen to protect his brand. Deans is the worlds greatest ….. career killer. Just ask a few ex All Blacks. When assistant All Black coach he was respsonsible for killing the career of one of the greatest ever All Blacks Christian Cullen and did his best to try and kill off Tana Umaga’s career as well, in favour of his plodding Canterbury mate Leon McDonald (playing hm out of position surprise surprise) , in another of the worlds great coaching cock ups, at a world cup.

          There is a distinct possibility after the next tour that Deans will end up taking us backwards, to
          5th on the world ranking. (we were 4th soon after the last world cup before Deans had coached a game). Eales and Gregan and Hawker and Robinson and Cosgrove will then have an awful lot of explaining to do to
          excuse their grossly incompetent management of Australian rugby

          It’s almost inevitable as revenge karma for the disgraceful attacks on Quade Cooper last week that these ARU board members will be begging Khoder Naaser to encourage Quade to come back to the Wallabies and when Khoder says kiss my ass, they will all go up in unison, which cheek first sir ?

        • Brumby Runner

          Boutbloodytime – that’s the best summary of the current situation that I’ve seen. Agree with everything. Deans must go!

          If there is any sanity left, Link will take over but will have much the same injury toll as now exists. But while that might mean we will still continue to lose games, you can bet that we will all be a lot happeir with the way the team will be playing.

      • bill

        Well i wouldn’t call Leon McDonald a plodder, I wouldn’t call him better than Cullen though.

  • #1 Tah

    Law 3.12 seems to be in place to prevent uncontested scrums. Had Alexander come on, uncontested scrums would have had to be called. It’s not written that way, but its in the spirit of the game.

    Anyway, nothing really matters after law 0 – the man with the whistle is always right.

  • Bay35Pablo

    Deans & co flubbing subs?! Unprecedented!!

    They have stuffed it up enough times tactically. Is it any surprise when it was a pressure situation due to real injuries it got flubbed?

    Plus you can always bank on the refs (I) deciding to be inconsistent (ii) applying the letter of the law rather than the spirit.

  • chris

    Good summation of the rules, but I think you are wrong about Alexander being allowed to return.

    A substituted front-ranker (Robinson) can only return in the case of an injury (Alexander). Now Alexander did not look particularly injured sitting next to the field, but he could not return to the field of play.

    The role of the medical staff is pretty interesting in this whole affair. Once Rolland refused the substitution of TPN by Fiangaa, the wallabies tried to return TPN to the pitch, but Rolland said they are not allowed to do that as he was informed by the team doctor that TPN was not fit to continue.

  • mattyinred

    Okay I have held back from making comment because as a dyed in the wool reds fan I didnt want to be seen as pushing the proverbial reds cart; enough is enough.

    I look at the state of Australian rugby and Deans needs to go. The fact is we are band aiding our lack of capability in the front row with smoke and mirrors and it has finally bitten.

    Deans need to go and Link needs to replace him.

    Not because I am a queensland supporter but because I love the green and gold.

    This aint because of the comments made from cooper either – he presented some good points but then undid himself with the SBW and I go together statement floating around. (well done with News Ltd printing that press release as news).

    My thoughts are that Link can bring the S15 teams together. He has a relationship with Cheika through the randwick connection, Foley through his time with the Wallabies and White will respect what his capabilities are due to the fact he followed them in the capital.

    We need a national coach who can bring the various provinces into a single focus.

    We need a national coach who can work with administration to reconnect with the supporters.

    We need a national coach who works on merit rather than status (that includes you Quade, Kurtley, JOC etc)

    We need a national coach who promotes young talent and challenges them to question the status quo.

    We need a national coach who can drive the best out of our old war horses to allow the next gen to take over

    We need a coach who can recognise the qualities of a player and provide framework for them to flourish.

    Link has proven this.

    I look at the Wallabies and the Reds. I have seen the likes of Samo, AWH. Van Humphries, they have all done there bit. Then add Schatz, Gill and Shipperley and we have a mix.

    From everything I have heard Link is a good communicator and works with people to get to the outcome. He motivates and challenges.

    What we saw is with the prop subs (not the first time) was a band aid rather than an elixir – time to provide the second not the first. Fix the problem not the solutions.

    I will say that if cheika hadnt just come back I seriously would have seen him in the running with all reports out of the the northern hemisphere.

    • Skip

      Amen!

    • Stin

      What’s the likelihood of ARU trying to get Link, let alone him being interested?
      Isn’t the talk that Nucci has been promised the spot next? (God f$@@king forbid!)

  • Justtacklehim

    Very interesting article and it helped explain the finer points. Such a simple and fundamental mistake at this level is unforgivable. It will be a tough one to defend for the ARU particularly if Deans is still in the role at the end of the rugby championship, we finish last and there is a review of the season.

  • Lets all face the facts

    Did anyone else notice that Benn Robinson threw straighter than Polota-Nau?

    • Dave

      Funny, but untrue. In all fairness TPN’s throwing was much improved during this game.

  • Dirty Socks

    The Exception 2quoted is not at all as clear as Rowley would have us believe.

    Exception 2: a substituted player may replace a front row player when injured, temporarily suspended or sent off unless the referee has ordered uncontested scrums prior to the event which led to the front row player leaving the field of play and the team has used all the permitted replacements and substitutions.

    The question is what was the event; the player being injured, temp suspended or sent off, or was it when the ref ordered uncontested scrums?

    I am of the view that it was the first series of alternatives rather than the last. The recent history of refereeing would indicate that most refs see it my way.

    The whole thing is a shambles. I sit on a judicary and the IRB have just issued a series of new guidelines for judiciaries. They are a legal shambles. I am not certain who writes this crap, but it is not professional and it all needs to be sorted out.

    • http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/ Matt Rowley

      I’m not sure what your point is.

      No, there hadn’t been uncontested scrums yet, but that wasn’t the first issue.

      The first issue was that Aus had used up its 7 substitutions and so therefore would need to put a front row player BACK ON (a ‘substituted player’), not put a fresh unsubstituted player on (Faingaa).

      If they had tried instead to put Benny A on (BEFORE the uncontested scrums), they would have been OK.

      • Dirty Socks

        Matt, the point is that under Exception 2, non contested scrum should not have been called until the front row substitutes/replacements has been exhausted. In this case they weren’t.

        How many substitutions/replacements are able to take place? Law 3.4 does not specify how many substitutions/ replacements are allowed during a game, it ineffect talks in terms of what is required on the bench at the start of the game.

        “For interational matches a Union may nominate up to seven replacement/substitutions”

        If I read replacement/sustitution as a noun representing players on the bench at the start of the game, and then to use them, I look at the Laws governing how they can be used in that role. It is quite clear to me what is allowed. It does not require a count of how many have been changed, it requires the changes to be done according to the Law from the available seven. In the case of Front rows, any substituted player under certain conditions. eg A front row player being replaced for injury he can no longer go back on. But a substituted front row player simply takes up a role in the pool of any remaining substitutes/replacements and he can be used to cover suspensions, blood and injury, but cannot be used as another substitution. Faingaa was one of the seven, had not been used and should have been allowed on when TPN was injured off.

        • http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/ Matt Rowley

          The exact wording (as you quote it) is “substitutions” not “substitutes”. By fiddling the props, you might well use up all your substitutions before you use up your substitutes?
          UNLESS that substitution was for a front row player previously substituted.

          What you can’t do is endlessly swap your front rowers around and then expect to still use your full bench.

        • Dirty Socks

          Matt, you are right it does say “substitutes” so clearly I misquoted (it was late and I was tired), but that reinforces my case for it being a noun.

          You can only swap your front row under specific circumstances. If replaced the player does not get back on the field. If substituted, a front row can only go back on as a substitute for blood or to recreate a front row if one has been yellow carded or sent off. Both the first two are temporary the last is permanent. He can go back as a replacement if one is injured.

          There is no question that you can randomly substitute them as you suggest, you can’t after their first use. No one was being randomly substituted as I saw it. More importantly there is no restriction written into the law covering how many times substitutes can be used. It is implied by the laws covering when a substitute can be used.

          The ref made a mistake as have you in your analysis.

      • http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/ Matt Rowley

        Not looking that way:

        “The referee was correct,” said the IRB’s James Fitzgerald in response to an inquiry from the Fairfax. “Australia had already used their seven replacements permissible.”

        Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/wallabies-got-substitution-wrong-irb-20121003-26y7w.html#ixzz28DVdwuv4

        • Dirty Socks

          Then ask them where the law says seven other than for the makeup of the bench.

          As we have seen over the years, with the worst and most public example being Paddy O’Brien’s support for Wayne Barnes’ refereeing mistakes in the RWC Qtr Final in Cardiff, the first official step by the IRB is denial and loud support for the ref. Later and much quieter, will be an admission.

          They should have stayed with their first unofficial reaction that was reported on Monday.

  • Who?

    Last time we had uncontested scrums, the coach was sacked… It was more understandable back then, because we were against a good front row with an underdeveloped front row. This time, we were playing against a team where we had parity in the scrum (Boks’ scrum hasn’t been great for a while now), and it only happened because a ref finally copped on to Deans’ illegal substitution tactics.

    I’m not saying Rolland had a great game. He made MANY errors (Slipper’s card wasn’t even a penalty, the penalty before that (where Habana got in quickly) for sealing off was wrong (we’d cleaned out, not sealed off, there’s heaps more where the Bokke got the home ground advantage andmore), and he shouldn’t have allowed Fat Cat back on (that would’ve been the correct decision), but it’s about time someone finally effectively said that the tactic of swapping props isn’t on.

    All that said, don’t they have to have an extra prop on the bench for the Spring Tour, as specified here: http://www.irb.com/newsmedia/mediazone/pressrelease/newsid=2062222.html
    That being the case, the line, “You’ve used your seven substitutes,” would be accurate. Perhaps Alain was just a month ahead of himself?

  • Lindommer

    Having been a referee and a Level II touchie in the past I’ve never quite got the gist of the replacement/substitution definitions. The Laws seem to say replacements are for those injured and substitutions are for those not. See here: http://www.irblaws.com/downloads/EN/Law_3_EN.pdf That Law states a team can have up to seven substitutions (two front rowers and five others) but no mention of the number of replacements. Another section of that Law mentions replacements/substitutions in one breath. And another section states the union with jurisdiction over the match may alter these numbers. I’d suggest a sideline lawyer may have been able to successfully argue Australia were allowed to run Fainga’a on under Laws 3.12, 3.13 and 3.14.

    As clear as mud. Are there any other SANZAR competition rules we don’t know about?

  • Dave

    It was an embarrassing debacle at the worst possible time for Deans and Co. Not to mention the Wallaby playing group that was already under so much pressure, and now, even more so. What we need is to do the simple things well, on and off the field, yet the WB staff can’t even manage successful substitutions. Why make what is essentially a simple process more complicated? Does Robbo coming back on really benefit us more than him getting subbed at the 40/50 minute mark? Would he be that much more refreshed? I applaud them looking for solutions outside the box but this speaks more to desperation and panic than clear headed ideas. And in turn it has falsely lead them to solutions the equivalent of crossing their fingers and hoping this random tactic will add something. This was never going to be an area where we could gain an advantage that would make any difference. Yet the tactic exposed players to more injuries and exhaustion and yet another blow to their confidence. Amateurish stuff.

    I don’t know how Deans can survive this. When the WBs needed a calm head and a settling influence he choked, we choked. His only excuse will be pre-game injuries, the ref got it wrong, and in-game injuries. If he still refuses to look at himself, his techniques and his priorities then it’s further proof he is out of touch with the real problem.

    • Who?

      It’s not about Fat Cat being refreshed, it’s about Benny A not having to play 80. ;)

  • bill

    I thought Robinson and Slipper looked the best of our prop combinations.And Slipper was a shitload better in general play than the other props.

    Honestly I can’t fault Taf’s commitment but for energy in general play I think Saia Faingaa is a better choice.

    Bad look of that last game was watching Hooper try and accelerate from a standing start in the second half and he ran in the same shortened shithouse manner that Phil Waugh used to, not because he was useing short steps to wrong foot the opposition, just poor mechanics. Not good. either exhausted or the wallabies are ruining a good player.

  • bill

    I thought sept was 9?

    • Lindommer

      Neuf it’s not.

    • http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/ Matt Rowley

      I should have been asking for a soixante-sept all these years???

    • murph

      It’s seven. September was the seventh month in the Roman calendar until July and August were added (to correlate months with seasons) and named in honour of Julius Caesar and Augustus Caesar.

  • murph

    Once again, these are basic details. Either Deans and co. are negligent or they are lacking the knowledge required to run a rugby team. Either way, they must go.

  • Benny

    Was it just me or did Digby go down with a sore shoulder and all of a sudden was in the blood bin? Didn’t see a drop. Did the medic bop him in the nose?

  • Ref

    This is all hopelessly wrong.

    Australia had not “used up all their substitutions”. That requires 7 tactical subs. Therefore the Fainga’a sub was perfectly legal.

    Rolland got it wrong. There will be a public announcement of this at some point.

    This article is total nonsense, I’m afraid.

    • murph
    • http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/ Matt Rowley

      Yeah, not looking that way Ref:

      “The referee was correct,” said the IRB’s James Fitzgerald in response to an inquiry from the Fairfax. “Australia had already used their seven replacements permissible.”

      Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/wallabies-got-substitution-wrong-irb-20121003-26y7w.html#ixzz28DVdwuv4

      Want some seasoning to eat those words with?

      • Ref

        As promised:

        http://www.irb.com/newsmedia/mediazone/pressrelease/newsid=2063781.html#irb+statement+match+officials

        The IRB has confirmed that the match official team taking charge of Saturday’s Rugby Championship between South Africa and Australia in Pretoria incorrectly prevented Australia from making a substitute during the second half of the match.

        Following a review, the five-strong match official team acknowledges that they failed to recognise Law 3.12 (Exception 2) when managing a substitution in the 66th minute, which meant that Australia finished the match with 14 players.

        Under the Law exception, Australia’s Saia Faingaa (16) should have been permitted to replace Australia’s Tatafu Polota-Nau (2) as Benn Robinson (1), who had already been substituted, replaced Ben Alexander (3) who was injured during the match. Therefore, Australia had one permitted technical substitution available.

        IRB Match Official Selection Committee Chairman John Jeffrey said: “The area of substitution management is a team effort. This was an unfortunate case of human error by the match official team who fully recognise and accept that they made a mistake in the application of the substitution Law.”

        “All match official performances, including last weekend’s match, are thoroughly reviewed and assessed by the IRB and are considered when appointments are made for future Test matches.”

        Performances during The Rugby Championship will be reviewed at the IRB Match Official Selection Committee meeting in Johannesburg, South Africa this weekend.

      • Ref

        PS when correcting the original article (and apologizing to the Wallaby management I suppose) you might link to this article which actually has sane discussion of the issue:

        http://www.sareferees.com/laws/view/2829805/

        • Scott Allen

          The laws of rugby often require interpretation as they are loosely written. The interpretation issued by the IRB does not follow the letter of the law. As pointed out in the SA Referees article you refer to, the referees followed the letter of the law.

          However, regardless of the wording the IRB is the body that interprets the law and going forward there can be no confusion on how the law is to be applied.

          The interpretation in relation to this particular instance relies on one central claim – that Ben Alexander was injured and therefore Benn Robinson was a replacement.

          The IRB statement makes it clear that this is the basis they have ruled on – if Robinson was a substitute (if Alexander wasn’t injured) then the clarification shows that the Wallabies would have had no substitutions left.

          The Wallabies management sought a clarification from the IRB on the basis that Alexander was injured and the IRB have responded on that basis. Ask the IRB for clarification on the basis that Alexander was not injured and you’d get a different response.

          I doubt there are many people who will accept that Alexander was really injured. The footage of the match shows him moving freely on the sideline after he came off and in fact keeping warm in case he had to go back on. The SA Referees article you refer to says “Robinson came back to replace Ben Alexander. This was a replacement for an injury apparently”. They know what was really going on.

          To suggest Alexander was injured suggest he has been getting injured at the same point in the second half of matches most of this year – this defies belief. We all know the Wallabies have been flaunting the law (as other teams do) and substituting Robinson and Alexander.

          If you accept that Alexander wasn’t injured then the referee got it right on the night based on the IRB’s clarification.

          It is the Wallabies management that should be apologising – they have been breaching the spirit of the law all year and have now continued the farce by seeking clarification from the IRB on the basis of a claimed injury.

        • Ref

          I’m sorry but you have it totally wrong also.

          If Alexander was not injured, then the match officials erred horrendously in allowing a previously substituted player (Robinson) on for an uninjured player. They should never have allowed Robinson back on.

          If Alexander was injured, they cocked up.
          If Alexander was not injured, they cocked up.

          The referees did not follow the letter of the Law.

          People are taking the suspected unfair rotating of props, which is a legitimate issue of concern but has been going on for years by just about all teams, and trying to twist the facts to blame the Wallabies management for the debacle which was entirely the match officials’ fault.

        • Scott Allen

          Ref I agree – where the error was made simply turns on whether Alexander was injured when Robinson came on for him.

          If Alexander was injured the error occurred when Faingaa was not allowed on.

          If Alexander wasn’t injured then the error occurred when Robinson went back on but the decision regarding Faingaa was then correct.

          How the referees interpreted the Faingaa decision on the night depends on how the fourth referee recorded that Alexander/Robinson player movement – replacement or substitution.

          The Wallabies have told the IRB that Alexander was injured. In clarifying the position the IRB have relied on that information.

          Whether we believe Alexander was injured or not determines where we believe the error was made by the referees.

          I for one don’t believe Alexander was injured.

        • johnny-boy

          Obviously by trying to replace a player that wasn’t really injured, Deans instigated the debacle and therefore should be held responsible, regardless of whether other teams have also done it in the past. I wouldn’t be surprised if Rolland had spotted it in previous games and decided he wasn’t going to be ‘gamed’ as GAGR put it

        • Dirty Socks

          Hell Jonny-boy, you hate with such a passion that you can not give credit when it is due. It was the Ref and the other match officials that made the mistake not Deans.

  • Ref

    There will be a further clarification from the IRB.

    The statement from the IRB referred to above set a few wheels in motion today.

  • Lindommer

    Yep. As I said earlier it’s as clear as mud. A careful reading of the Laws could (and has) come up with two contradictory conclusions. And pity the poor bastards who have to translate the English Laws into another language: does the word “substitutions” refer to the act or the players? Is “close” a verb, adverb or adjective?

    Let’s get the Plain English Foundation on the job.

  • Jimmy

    Note that the IRB has now reversed it’s ruling and stated that Rolland and Co. got it wrong.

    Not the first time Rolland has screwed the Wallabies from memory. He doesn’t seem to like us at all.

  • barramundi

    Has anyone read the IRB release stating that the refs got it wrong and that rule 3.12 would allow Faingaa to sub on as BR would not count as a sub as he was coming on for a fellow injured front rower… if its this confusing no wonder it got screwed up.

  • Refabit

    The IRB ruling decision says that 7 substitutions are allowed but as Alexander was replaced he doesn’t count as a substitution. This doesn’t make a lot of sense when several of the other “substitutions” were for injury and therefore actually replacements (not tactical).
    Under their decision apparently you get a total of 7of:
    - non front row substitutions/replacements &
    - front row substitutions.

    Seems bizarre.

    • murph

      Sounds like they’ve just set a precedent for an interchange bench

  • ‘Boutbloodytime

    There’s letter of the law & spirit of the game being debated here…similar to Bodyline being within the laws of cricket at the time but not really in the spirit of the game (and any Kiwi reading this post will probably bleat on about Trevor Chappell bowling underarm)…

    My point being, how many of us have pissed & moaned about Saffers/ABs lying all over the ball at the breakdown, not rolling away/McCaw spending half the game offside etc etc…and then we do something bloody questionable ourselves with regard to the spirit of the game.

    In isolation, the Wallabies management decision was probably correct to the interpretation of the law. Yet we have used this cynical approach previously & it is a slur on the spirit of the game. I don’t give a shit if other sides resort to the same tactics, I’m just pissed off & frustrated that the Wallabies coaching staff/management have to resort to these questionable tactics because they have little if anything else to offer.

    Manage & coach the side properly & incidents such as these don’t even come up on the radar in the first place.

    • Jimmy

      It’s the Kiwi way and let’s look at who is running the team…wait….it’s a kiwi.

      Totallly agree – this shouldn’t be our style and it needs to be stopped along with the “dumb” football we have started to play. Being smarter was always our strength but we have abandoned that since Deans took over in favour of flakey talent, showmanship, tatoos and fancy haircuts.

  • rae1

    I was embarrassed for the fans and the team and Im a kiwi, this kind of stuff up falls on management. Thought this only happened at club level. Someone from management on the ground obviously cant count to 7.Shame!

  • Nutta

    The thing that gets me about this is where was the pre-game refs discussion in all this? It’s not new to have a chat with the refs a couple of days in advance of a test. I am aware of even a few Super teams who do it. It’s not as though this sub/rotation is new so why was it not covered off before-hand? why is it allowed to get that far it becomes not only embarrassing for Oz rugby but for the IRB and the Game too surely?

    In business, when you have a big event coming up you get together, have an agenda of topics to cover and move through it so everyone knows the lay of land. This is no different and if anyone tries to say “This isn’t business” well they really need to go play on the road for a while.

    • Dirty Socks

      Nutta, the thing that has come through loud and clear to me about this issue is that very few people actually know the laws about replacements and substitutes. Frankly I think it is a disgrace at international level. I have some difficulty blaming Rolland as he was simply acting on advice from the 4th match official about the “seven use” issue. On the otherhand, if he knew his law he would have known that “seven” is not the issue, it is what they are being used for that dictates how many.

      Until we can sort these things out and get some clarity within the laws, Rugby is going no where fast.

      • Nutta

        Dirty Socks

        Completely agree. People are getting paid to do a job to in producing a “product”. That means there is a good-faith duty of care to know just how you are supposed to do your fkn job. Part of that is preparation. Part of preparation is having due-diligence discussions with relevant parties (ie Refs) about relevant issues where there may be a lack of clarity (ie substitutions).

        If you don’t want to do that, then quit or take the repercussions. If you can’t do that then your Boss needs to weed you out and replace you (that’s their good faith duty)

        For me this goes to the heart & soul of the issue our game faces – managerial leadership and a lack of both Will to do what is needed and Repercussion for failure.

        The actions of soldiers are a reflection of their general. Public player dummyspits, ridiculous player demands in contract negotiations, “indescretions” covered up and not being judiciously dealt with in the open, over-working of assets until they broke down with no fresh assets coming through to replace them (3rd tier), bullshit game-day tactics, player deviations away from tactic, etc etc etc… Weak and Ill Prepared Leadership.

        Can you imagine what would happen in the private sector as repercussion for this sort of fiasco? Or better yet, in a publicly listed company? They would be lucky if they only lost their job. Their career would certainly be over and if they were a contractor then I hope their professional liability insurance was paid up. I’ll say here that none of my staff would DARE be this incompetent – scrub that in that we have levels of reviw to protect us from such incompetence – and if they did screw it up this bad they would resign out of shame before I came knocking. But here we accept this crap because it’s sport? Go back to paragraph 1…

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