Tuesday's Rugby News - Green and Gold Rugby
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Tuesday’s Rugby News

Tuesday’s Rugby News

Tuesday’s Rugby News has a Senate report to be handed down, a hopeful TPN, a wise Mako Vunipola, and Allister Coetzee facing the chop.


48-72 Weeks Later

pulver-clyne-announcement-questions

Finally, at long last, there’s a sequel to 28 Wees Later. Except this time it isn’t about a zombie virus decimating Britain, it’s about about rugby and stars Val Kilmer as Bill Pulver, Michael Douglas as Cameron Clyne, and Brendan Fraser as Matt Hodgson.

More to the point, the Senate – yes, the Senate. them – are going to finally do what they’re supposed to, and talk about rugby. Specifically, their findings into the whole Force thing.

“After three public hearings, the senate committee has compiled a report, with recommendations for Australia’s rugby future, which will be handed down,” reports rugby.com.au, doing all the hard work for GAGR’s Rugby News.

“Rugby Australia CEO Bill Pulver, former chief operating officer Rob Clarke, chairman Cameron Clyne and Western Force general manager Mark Sinderberry were among those to give public evidence to the senators during the months-long process.

“Twenty submissions were made to the inquiry before it closed on October 12, with organisations from the Rugby Union Players’ Assocation (RUPA) to the NSW Rugby Union all submitting documents.”

The report was meant to be handed down yesterday, but much like everything else to do with rugby, was pushed back for unknown reasons. Apart from currently being gutted because there’s a lack of Senators who aren’t provided enough staff, entitlements, or salary to check if their Nan was born in County Donegal, it’s hard to say what exactly the Senate inquiry can tell the ARU what to do. Clyne has actually repeatedly questioned the need for an inquiry which, in a way, is valid if there’s no real point to the inquiry other than shaming the ARU board.

Anyway, here are the 7 points the inquiry will address:

  1. the Australian Rugby Union Board deliberations leading to the decision to reduce Australian teams from five to four in the national competition;
  2. whether there continues to be a truly national rugby union footprint in Australia;
  3. the role of national and state-based bodies in encouraging greater national participation in rugby union;
  4. the corporate governance arrangements and composition of national and state-based rugby union bodies, including community representation on those bodies;
  5. whether Sonny Bill Williams is the stupidest man in the world rugby;
  6. the impact of the decision to reduce the number of Australian teams on national participation in rugby union; and
  7. any other related matters.

TPN Has Eyes For Bill

Tatafu Polota-Nau brought down as Hogson, Jantjes and Whiteley look on

Tatafu Polota-Nau may be doing one to England, but he still wants to play cup. Rugby World Cup, that is. With Stephen Moore hanging up the crooked nose, TPN is next in line to throw bad lineouts.

“I’ve got to take it game by game,” Polota-Nau told the SMH. “I’m a bit like Steve, it’s definitely starting to take a toll on this body. In saying that, if I keep performing, then most definitely [I would want to play at the World Cup].

“I still personally feel like I’ve got a lot of room to improve. At the end of the day, what is prominent is just trying to make sure that I continue my form from the Test series into the English Premiership, so hopefully he [Cheika] does give me that call.”

After he left the Tahs last year, TPN had a proposed move to Bristol scuppered by a broken elbow. The Force gave him a space, but now he’s been kicked out.

“I thought why not come and challenge [myself] in a different environment,” Polota-Nau continued. “The move to the Force was great, it’s such a shame that I couldn’t stay there longer but I guess the next challenge is to come test it up in the northern hemisphere where it might be a bit slow from what I hear from a couple of friends. I guess you never know until you experience it.

“I’ll definitely miss home but it’s the way the cookie crumbles.”

The SMH also reports that every Aussie Super side offered TPN a contract, but in actual fact the Afroed one had basically signed for Leicester Tigers yonks ago. At Leicester, he’ll join fellow Aussies Matt Toomua, Nick Malouf

Regardless, it’s ok that he’s not in Aussie Super because there’s so many young hookers coming through.

“I have no doubt that the future of Super Rugby in the hooking department is well-covered,” Polota-Nau said. “I’m really excited to watch from afar the likes of Jordan [Uelese], Alex Mafi, Andrew Ready and Tolu [Latu].

“Obviously Steve and I have held that reign for a bit but for the sake of the growth of our game, I think it’s definitely a positive to watch them from afar.”

Mako Makes Sense

Photo courtesy of Tim Anger

Photo courtesy of Tim Anger

Mako Vunipola, the towering, Easter Island Statue-looking prop for England, reckons that if the English play like crap, the Wallabies could mash them up.

England, apparently, didn’t play too well in their 21-8 win over Argentina last week. Vunipola was awarded the Seiko for that game.

“We have to look at the game, see where we can improve and take the learning otherwise, if we don’t have that cohesiveness… Australia, the team they are at the moment and the form they’re in at the moment, they’ll take you apart,” said Vunipola, according to the London Telegraph.

“We’re going into it with a new slate, new opportunities to perform better than we did today and we know Australia will be a tough opponent and one we’re looking forward to.

“We know we’ve got areas to work on. But the important thing was coming out today, getting the win. We know we were rusty in certain elements. It’s going to be another step up next week. That’s going to be a tough game. But look, we won and we’ve still got areas to work on. We’re not in a bad place.

“You’ve got to take the learning from it. You can’t brush things under the carpet. There were some good bits as well. I think we defended pretty well.

“Unfortunately our discipline wasn’t too great in allowing them out too easily. And, as a team, that’s something we’ve got to address. But, all in all, a good first hit out, with much work to do.”

Coetzee Gone?

Super Rugby: DHL Stormers Training Session And Press Conference

South Africa – are they the Crab Juice of international rugby for 2017 as well as 2016? It’s getting so embarrassing that there are reports that Allister Coetzee may be facing the sack.

The Sunday Times of Cape Town says that, according to top SA Rugby suits, Coetzee’s tenure should be measured in “weeks, not months”. Ooh ah.

“Inside sources revealed that SA Rugby president Mark Alexander had a heated exchange with Coetzee in the immediate aftermath of the Dublin debacle‚ reminiscent of scenes after the Boks lost to Italy in Florence in 2016,” writes Craig Ray, which sounds like a name that would be funny to same in a Saffer accent.

“SA Rugby’s executive committee is set to meet in early December where Coetzee’s contract will be terminated following two seasons of disastrous results.

“It is understood that some thought had been given to recalling Coetzee immediately following the latest embarrassment‚ but that plan has been shelved in favour of a formal dismissal process.

“The Boks still have Tests against France‚ Italy and Wales to come on the current tour and could suffer further humiliation‚ but changing coaches mid-tour would serve little purpose.”

Coetzee, the report reliably informs us, has only won 9, or 41%, of his 22 tests – or in other words, he has a not-lost 11, or 50%, of his 22 tests.

While he wasn’t coach at the time that South Africa lost to Japan (lol btw) at the 2015 World Cup, as it says before, under his tenure the Boks have: lost to Ireland at home (a historic first); lost to Argentina; lost to Italy (lol) and won the Crab Juice Classic against the Welsh last year (that’s a bad thing).

Ray ends the report with this:

“Mercifully the end is near.”

  • P00chie

    Is Coetzee really the issue? Seems a scapegoat.

    • D. Braithwaite’s The Brumbies

      There are structural problems but his performance, his tactics, his scapegoating of players, his constant deflection and inability to take responsibility for any results, the pathetic style of rugby under him, his diabolical selections (I though Phipps and Hanigan were bad, but Raymond Rhule…!) and his pathetic results mean he has to go.

      • P00chie

        His first year had a tough bedding in period but this year they lost 3 games to far better sides (one was a 1 point loss to New Zealand and admittedly the other two were emphatic) got two good draws against Australia and won the rest of their games.

        • D. Braithwaite’s The Brumbies

          They’ve only beaten a very poor France B team and Argentina. Couldn’t bear an average Australia (we’ve improved but we weren’t great then) on the highveld or in Perth when their forwards beat us up twice.

          57-0 to New Zealand is a disgrace, and now a record loss to Ireland.

          I had previously thought that the Boks had turned it around after France, but I was wrong. This cannot continue.

        • P00chie

          The fallacy is blaming him for this.

        • D. Braithwaite’s The Brumbies

          He is responsible. He achieved nothing at the Stormers, continued his form at the Boks while picking shit players (not about transformation – he’s picking shit players of all colours over good players of all colours), never taking responsibility and blaming his players for his errors and has demonstrated no coaching nous or tactics.

        • P00chie

          You’ve repeated the same point several times, your opinion on it is abundantly clear.

        • D. Braithwaite’s The Brumbies

          Please provide some effort for it not being his fault beyond you claiming that it is a fact that he isn’t at fault—in direct opposition to every other voice on planet earth.

        • P00chie

          More straw-manning.

          I came here to discuss rugby civilly, not provoke arguments with random strangers.

      • Bakkies

        Agreed Daryl.

        There’s another side to this SARU. When he started last year SARU tabled a 4 year deal with no performance clauses which he signed. This is a union that was recovering from major losses and lost the Boks’ major sponsor. His backs coach was a recently retired 7s player and the other assistants who inherited off Meyer he hadn’t met.

        It’s up there with the World’s greatest sporting administrator offering Deans an extension after losing to Samoa and Scotland at home with RWC results not coming in to the equation

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    • Bobas

      nau-nau

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  • Perth girl

    Showing your true colours now Nick! So theres no point to an inquiry because nothing can be done about mis-management, millions of dollars being squandered, lies by the ARU board etc. Oh well you will get what you deserve then

    • Greg

      “if there’s no real point to the inquiry other than shaming the ARU board”

      Honestly, this is the only point isn’t it?

      There are far more qualified people to hold a review of recent rugby management performance than the Senate. The inquiry will allow the WA pollies to beat their chests and then…. hmm not sure.

      • Markos

        The ARU need to be shamed and I am confident they will be. The alternative is what – turning a blind eye to unethical and unaccountable behaviour?

        Remember this is the mob that turned down more than $50 million dollars for Australian Rugby. That is money for juniors, grass roots, women and many other initiatives…and why? Because it was too late! Tell that to the struggling clubs and juniors.

        • Bakkies

          and spent millions of dollars on consulting fees that changed nothing for the better.

          ‘The report was meant to be handed down yesterday, but much like everything else to do with rugby, was pushed back for unknown reasons. ‘

          Small matter of swearing in a new Senate President which took up two hours of sitting time which included a suspension (probably to do with Sen Ryan being sworn in by the GG) and another 90 mins at least in condolences to Sir Ninian Stephen (former GG for those who don’t know).

        • Bakkies

          Andrew Cox sent in a response on Nov 10 which is up on the Inquiry website under correspondence. This probably explains why there is a delay.

        • Rob Hill

          Not really it says precisely 100% of nothing

      • Bakkies

        Greg the ARU have already had 13 reviews in at least 5 years one of them conducted by one of de Clyne’s Friends of Sydney Uni allies Patrick Allaway. Accenture and Mark Arbib haven’t been able to turn around the ARU/Sydney Uni cabal. Enough is enough they have had too many reviews time to take their conduct to task and sweep them out of the room.

        • McWarren

          Agreed, reviews by your mates or even just reviews commissioned by yourself of yourself are pointless.

        • Bakkies

          Exactly and there have been countless internal reviews. The reckless spending continued. To top it off the ARU threw their toys out of the cot at the IRB by crying poor over lost revenue and gate receipts yet they put themselves in this position.

          Speaking of the IRB there is a meeting on the 14th where Twiggy will be making his pitch

        • paul

          And ultimately, has there been any repercussions of this whole fiasco.

          Not a single board member has resigned, Pulver is serving out his time and Clyne does not think they have done anything thing wrong.

          And after a couple of Wallaby wins its business as usual.

          Exactly what or will change to make the game anymore popular than it has been.

        • Bakkies

          Well apart from Geoff Stooke, COO Weasel Clarke, CFO Todd Day and Bumchin Bill.

          Arseholes R Us have been looking for replacements for months. The longer they look for replacements the more money it costs.

        • Perth girl

          No board member resigned?? shows how much you have been following this Paul!!

      • Alister Smith

        Just to clear up from the start I am not from WA but I wasn’t a fan of the Force being culled. There are a couple of points as to why this is inquiry was necessary and why it could have important ramifications for the governance of the game and the reputation of the ARU. Firstly, the ARU receives federal government funding and it and Rugby WA were also involved in discussions with the WA government and the enquiry was set-up by WA Senate representatives so I think that is a fair purpose. Secondly, rugby claims to be a national sport and that is part of why it gets government funding etc so if there is some question over its decision to preference development of its game in one area of the country and act disadvantageously in another then that is worth investigating. Finally, there are some potential governance issues relating to the choice to drop the Force and retain the Rebels. To me the selection process wasn’t entirely transparent and if the integrity of the decision is questionable or if there are aspects of it that are potentially dishonest or fraudulent or compromised then the Federal Senate is perhaps one of the few national bodies that could look at it. The Senate reviews any number of industry bodies, looks at marketing arrangements to see if there are issues and, as the impact of this decision impacted on a particular state i think it is fair that the state representative took a look at it. I am not sure if they can effectively rule on their findings or if their recommendations will be picked up but if the CEO’s and Chairman’s actions are found to be lacking then they will have to, at the very least, explain to the games stakeholders why they acted in the way they did. I personally think that, regardless of the decision of the senate committee, that the Chairman at the very least, should move on as I don’t believe that his leadership and his vision for the game is supported by most stakeholders and many of us have lost confidence in the boards ability to address the challenges that we face going forward.

    • BigNickHartman

      hopefully something comes out of the inquiry, i just doubt it though. the aru and cutting the force is a crock of crap, but it doesnt look like the ARU can be told what to do by the government.

      • Missing Link

        That’s exactly how I feel, I know the ARU made the wrong decision to cut any team but I also think the senate inquiry is a complete waste of time. I get the impression from force fans that they were hoping the senate would somehow be able to reverse the decision when half of them can’t work out what country they are a citizen of.

        • Valzc

          If you think the Force fans hope the decision to be reversed, we’re not. What we DO want is to see a little thing called justice be applied, and although Eastern staters still have your teams we have been completely gutted by this abominable action done through sheer vindictiveness by Clyne & helped by his dodgy mates who took full advantage of the cash cow he gifted them. Unlike a lot of fans over East, the Force fans turned up to games EVEN when they lost. So taking the smug attitude that a lot of you have taken & saying move along it’s over, then just stop and think a bit about the nest of incompetent rats you are stil stuck with. At least the Force can now regroup, regather & commence a new world of rugby without the lack of ethics & integrity of the ARU. So maybe you guys should think twice about patronising us Force fans.

        • Missing Link

          I contemplated replying to this with a really long winded explanatory post but I realised it’s like pissing into the wind, how many f*ing times do we have to tell you that we don’t like the decision as much as you guys? But you continue with this east vs. west garbage and you continue to subject us day in day out to the same posts about pulver, clyne, their dodgy mates and their dodgy dealings, lies and corruption with no actual evidence, click bait posts about “you’ll never believe what happened today in the senate inquiry ….” which amount to sweet FA and then have the audacity to call anyone outside WA smug and accuse us of patronising you!

          Rugby has to move on from the Force for now, whether you like it or not, and we all hope that one day in future we can go back to 5 teams and re-include the Force.

        • Perth girl

          Well said Valzc, it looks like some people on this site are happy to continue with the status quo when when it means grass roots rugby is dying from lack of funds. The board is lead by a man who has no moral compass and has been involved in 2 Senate inquiries now. Surely that should should tell you something!

        • BigNickHartman

          stop lying. no one here is happy with the status quo. i assume of course that you listen to podcasts, read the news, read the articles on this site. if you don’t, then you’re just making stuff up

        • Perth girl

          I’m out of here I don’t like to be accused of lying.I would be banned if I had said that. .So many of you have an opinion about this without even having read the information coming out of the Senate enquiry. You will get the Rugby leadership you deserve!

        • BigNickHartman

          if you don’t like being accused of lying, then stop lying :^)

        • McWarren

          Yet when someone who is inclined to take your side gets a fact wrong you in particular jump down there throat with a snide and uppety remark. See above your reply to Paul. Most people on the East coast are in complete agreement with you. Don’t confuse the nasty little ARU board members as being reflective of the Eastern seaboard.

        • Missing Link

          Many fans drive hundreds of k’s each season to see their team win lose or draw, many fans tune in to watch their team at all hours of the night from the other side of the world win, lose or draw. To suggest the Force fans are somewhat more deserving of a team because they turn up when the Force lose is an interesting thing to say considering you call everyone else smug and patronising.
          We all know that the ARU made the wrong call cutting any team, but this is the hand they dealt us and no magic fairy will change that, let’s deal in reality here, our only hope is to wait it out in hope that one day we will expand back to 5 teams and the Force will be re-included.

        • Perth girl

          We know which country we are a citizen of ML, its the rest of the country that doesn’t, except when it comes to spending our GST money!!

        • Chinese Dave

          He’s referring to the Senate, not you. Honestly, I think you and Bakkies and other WA-ers are firing at the wrong people. We all think the decision was crap and the ARU are a bunch of snobby arseholes. I’ve personally posted many times about what a farce it is that Lack-of-Leadership Billy got the job in the first place and is paid 800K a year to do it. And that’s just the beginning.

          The problem is that you are all just wallowing in it, continuing with the negativity, yet offering nothing more than a rehash of what we all know. They are self-centred arseholes who made a very bad and very self serving decision under circumstances that are at best questionable if not unconscionable. But it’s happened, and there’s nothing to be gained by revisiting it, at least not in a site whose membership is still dedicated to wanting Australian Rugby (as opposed to Rugby Australia) to do well.

          Now, the rest of us just want to go back to the original and not at all tedious argument over who is more crap, Bernard Foley or Quade Cooper and what all the ways in which they are crap are.

        • Bakkies

          Chinese Dave were you aware that the ARU sold the Rebels to an organisation that were technically insolvent at the time in NZ, the web of unit trusts and the millions spent on consultancy fees? I wasn’t aware until the Inquiry as no journo has bothered to chase the money trail. They have also wasted taxpayer funded dollars.

          As soon as Spiro made an attempt he was forced to apologise to Arseholes R Us and hasn’t said a peep about them since

        • Chinese Dave

          In all honesty, no I’m not aware. And there are probably many other details about this whole sordid affair of which I’m not aware. But that information doesn’t change my mind about it, because my opinion is that this whole thing was wrong, borderline corrupt and that the people who perpetrated it did so for ulterior motives which were not stated.

          The question is, now what? Even if all of this is true, it doesn’t change anything. The Force have been cut, their players have moved on and the blow to Australian Rugby has been struck. You can either dwell on the past and wallow in negativity or engage with and hope for a better future. I don’t blame you or anyone else who doesn’t want anything to do with the Wallabies going forward. But the rest of us do and there’s really nothing to be gained from this.

          I’d be curious to hear what positive outcome is possible from any of this.

        • Bakkies

          ‘The question is, now what? Even if all of this is true, it doesn’t change anything. The Force have been cut, their players have moved on and the blow to Australian Rugby has been struck. You can either dwell on the past and wallow in negativity or engage with and hope for a better future. ‘

          That’s got nothing to do with exposing the ARU and making them accountable. The ARU bar retrenching staff have not laid down a future for WA Rugby and have done a David Brent style takeover of the Force by the Rebels who still haven’t proven that they can finance their future.

          No one in the press is willing to do it bar Alan Jones. The rest are just boot lickers looking for a scoop.

        • Rob Hill

          So you’re happy to have the same “borderline corrupt” people in charge of you rugby clubs membership fees, any windfall from broadcasting deals and any other funds that come into the game?

          You call us delusional because you don’t listen to us when we say we don’t want the force reinstated, but you still want the criminals to have the keys to the bank.

          Are you sure you’re not looking into a mirror?

          For the eleventh billionth time nobody over here is in any way interested in the force being reinstated to super rugby, we see that as a poisoned chalice and a deep black hole into which we throw money that magically disappears into the pockets of some unnamed corrupt businessman.

          All we want is for Rats Arse to leave us alone and let us build our own destiny.

          If you’d been reading our comments, rather than thinking up juicy new ways to tell us to move on you’d know that already.

        • Chinese Dave

          Don’t be silly. Of course I’m not happy, but I don’t think there’s anything that can be done about it.

          And “looking into the mirror”? Really? Are you seriously implying that we are somehow criminals by complicity? Do you even have any proof that the ARU have committed any crimes?

          No, you’re just pissed off and feeling understandable negativity, and don’t want to have anything to do with the Wallabies. I get that. But it is what it is, and nothing is going to change it. Certainly not some toothless senate committee. So I choose to focus on the positives which is the Wallabies improvement, the eternal hope that next year will be better, etc. You choose to regurgitate the foul deed that was done to the Force, to you, and to us, again and again, but, seemingly, to no end.

        • Rob Hill

          You’re not really much of a reader are you Chinese Dave? I was telling you to check whether you were delusional, not criminal.

          If hoping for enough justice to be done so that the criminals that have siphoned millions of dollars of money into and subsequently out of the Melbourne rebels is “dwelling in the past” I guess I’m guilty.

          If hoping that the administrators who have destroyed the game West of UC get removed and the game finally becomes a national sport are removed is dwelling in the past…. Guilty

          However your hope that next year will be better is imho insane without a change at the top

          Don’t bother replying if all you’re going to do is defend the status quo that is threatening to destroy Australian rugby, you just keep feeling good about how well Ned hannigan can play against Japan.

      • Rob Hill

        2 million dollars a year federal funding might sound like chickenfeed in comparison to the 285 million from TV rights, but it’ll be the difference between solvency and receivership if the ra board chairman can be believed.

        So the inquiry can effect change, unless Clyne is lying.

    • Chinese Dave

      I’m curious. In your wildest dreams, what do you see coming out of the inquiry beyond shaming the ARU (an admirable goal in and of itself, BTW)?

      How exactly is Nick “showing his true colours”?

  • D. Braithwaite’s The Brumbies

    Don’t like seeing any coach go, and by all accounts Coetzee is a good man, but enough is enough, this cannot go on. Hopefully this is where the Boks turn a corner.

    • onlinesideline

      wheres Jake White these days ?

      • D. Braithwaite’s The Brumbies

        Japan. But he has made no secret he is desperate to return to international coaching, and he has seemed to me to be setting himself up to be parachuted in as Bok coach if Coetzee is removed.

        Jake his a history of wriggling out of contracts.

        • Bakkies

          He had to pay the Sharks himself to get out of his Brumbies deal

    • Kiwi rugby lover

      Yeah but I’m not sure anyone else will do better. The quota system along with so many players in Europe is not something that can be coached out of a team.

      • Parker

        Much more due to the number of players in Europe not able to be selected than the quota system.

        • D. Braithwaite’s The Brumbies

          There are better domestic players than Cronje, Jantjies, Skosan, de Allende, Kriel, Leyds and Coetzee. You could legitimately replace the entire backline with better domestic players.

          9. Reinach or Paige, 10. Pollard, 11. Mapimpi, 12. Janse van Rensburg, 14. Combrinck, 15. Gelant.

          Get Frans Steyn back and play 13. That is dropping a few black players and adding a few. Dan du Preez is a proper 6, PSDT is not. Just such baffling selections.

          For what it’s worth it’s Coetzee that chooses not select European based players. It’s unforgivable not to have Bismarck and Vermuelen in the team. I’d be considering getting back Habana and Pietersen also, as well as a few others.

        • mikado

          I can’t remember when Pollard last looked good. Probably just before CJ Stander KO’d him last year. But I agree there’s some weird selections, plus the team adds up to even less than the sum of their parts.

        • Tommy Brady

          The regression in Pollard’s play these past 2 years been tragic. Had all the hallmarks of being a magnificent No. 10 when he entered test rugby but injury and loss of form has been costly.

        • Bakkies

          It was Pat Lambie that was knocked out. Since going to France Lambie has barely missed any Rugby.

          Pollard picked up an infection from a surgery so out to miss several more months. These infections seem to be very common in SA players. That’s what started the problems for Schalk Burger who ended up in a coma and is lucky to be alive.

        • mikado

          Thanks, I got them mixed up.

      • Andrew Luscombe

        They’d do better just fielding the Lions team in SA jerseys.

        • Bakkies

          To field the Lions team you have to have the Lions attacking pod system that opens up space in the midfield and allows for wide forward runners. Instead they have adopted Cheika’s system with a centre pairing that has the same physique and doesn’t get over the gain line.

        • Alister Smith

          Hopefully that’s a temporary strategy for Cheika or perhaps a horse’s for courses strategy and he will revert to selecting Hunt and Kuridrani for England

        • Bakkies

          It’s the 1-3-3-1 pod system.

    • P00chie

      I think it is an immature approach rife in sport when you sack an individual when they are not responsible for the problem.

      This is scapegoating and nothing more. Similar to the attacks on Cheika which have thankfully died down.

      • D. Braithwaite’s The Brumbies

        Coetzee was responsible, you’ve provided no evidence I say he isn’t, and so was Cheika. The attacks on Cheika have died down as he’s changed and improved the game plan, stopped backing the shit defence plan and has started selecting better teams, so results have improved.

        • P00chie

          I didn’t think I actually needed to spell out the ills impacting South African rugby on a rugby forum.

        • D. Braithwaite’s The Brumbies

          Incorrect argument #1: ‘transformation is wrecking the Springboks’

          Answer: chronic under-performers in the Boss include Ryan Dreyer the human plank (white), Francois Louw played at number 8 (white), Ross Cronje (white), Elton Jantjies (black), Skosan (black), Kriel (white), Leyds (black), Coetzee (white). So 5 white players and 3 black players.

          Players that could take their spots and do much better: Franco Louw (white), Vermuelen (white), Rudy Paige (black), Pollard (white), Habana (black), Pietersen (black), Frans Steyn (white), Mapimpi (black) Gelant (black), le Roux (white). So 5 white players and 4 black players.

          In reality transformation is not the issue. There are plenty of very talented black players that could and should make the Boss on merit. They’re simply not being selected.

          Incorrect argument 2: ‘Europe has wrecked South African rugby’

          Argument has some merit, but the domestic talent in SA still far outstrips Australia. Also, South Africa has plenty of 30+ capped players in Europe to choose from.

          The du Preez brothers could have played at 8 or 6 all season. Instead they went for Cassiem and the dual open side flankers needlessly despite the du Preezs form. Dan still isn’t being selected at blindside flank in favour of du Toit, who is poor at flank.

          Habana, Pietersen, Bismarck du Plessis, Frans Steyn, le Roux and especially Vermuelen should all have been in the squad from the outset. Go onto SA Rugby Mag and everyone has been saying it. Now that Ireland have pumped them Vermuelen is finally called over, he should have played vs Ireland.

          Coetzee brought this on himself.

        • P00chie

          You’re presenting a purely subjective opinion as the objective truth.

          South African rugby has a limited selection pool due to a myriad of issues which are well-documented. Selective elimination, as above (with debatable conclusions which is a side issue) is merely confirmation bias. The comments on SA Rugby Mag I can only assume are as reflective of the consensus there as the hysterical reactions on this website are here.

        • D. Braithwaite’s The Brumbies

          Purely subjective that Rhule and Dreyer have been under-performing? Have you watched the Boks at all this year? Clearly not.

          ‘South African rugby has a limited selection pool due to a myriad of issues which are well-documented.’

          Please provide them—and yes, of course there are contributory factors like central contracts. They do not apply to Skosan, Rhule, de Allende, Leyds, Andries Coetzee.

          South Africa has a bigger selection pool than any country on earth bar New Zealand and England, despite the exodus to Europe. Coetzee achieved nothing with far more than Schmidt or Vern Cotter has had.

          Please explain how Coetzee has demonstrated any coaching abilities by blaming his own players for the losses and refusing to take responsibility.

        • P00chie

          Now you are starting a straw-man argument?

        • D. Braithwaite’s The Brumbies

          How?

        • P00chie

          By refuting an argument I did not make.

        • D. Braithwaite’s The Brumbies

          You haven’t made an argument or point, all you’ve said is: ‘it isn’t Coetzee’s fault because it is all the system’s fault’, despite the fact that it is the same system as was present under White, de Villiers and especially Meyer, yet the pathetic results did not appear until Coetzee took over.

        • P00chie

          Crudely summarising my opinion into a misleading sound-byte doesn’t seem like a constructive way to resolve a difference of opinion. The reality is that it does not need a resolution, your opinion is clear and valid.

          I would imagine that many would argue that the year preceding Coetzee’s appointment was the true Annus Horribilis of modern South African rugby but to each his own. I certainly can understand why two outlier score-lines have upset the fanbase.

        • D. Braithwaite’s The Brumbies

          ‘Crudely summarising my opinion into a misleading sound-byte doesn’t seem like a constructive way to resolve a difference of opinion.’

          You haven’t stated your point succinctly, so I interpreted it as you’ve implied it.

          ‘I would imagine that many would argue that the year preceding Coetzee’s appointment was the true Annus Horribilis of modern South African rugby’

          Nope. Aside from the loss to Japan the Boks made a RWC final and only just lost to the greatest All Blacks side of all time in the semis.

          ‘two outlier score-lines have upset the fanbase.’

          Are you trying to be misleading? The ONLY teams that they have beaten this year was France and Argentina.

          Coetzee’s record:

          – worst ever year in Springbok history in 2016 of 4 wins from 12 matches (33% win ratio)
          – 5 wins from 10 matches in 2017 (50% win ratio)
          – combined win ratio of 40%.

          Plus…

          – record loss to New Zealand in 2016
          – record loss to New Zealand in 2017
          – record loss to Ireland in 2017
          – first ever home loss to Ireland in 2016
          – first ever loss to Italy in 2016
          – first ever away loss to Argentina in 2016
          – winless Spring Tour in 2016

          You’re seriously saying you think that the 2015 year in which they came 3rd in the RWC was worse?

        • P00chie

          Arguing against me that South African have had a poor record with Coetzee coach is yet another straw-man argument. I have not presented that argument for you to counter. My position is that he is not responsible for South Africa’s problems. You are quite vociferous in your counter-opinion, you are entitled to that.

          “The ONLY teams that they have beaten this year was France and Argentina.”
          Correct. And the only teams they have lost to this year are New Zealand and Ireland.

          In 2015 they completed one of their worst series of consecutive defeats when lost to Argentina in Durban, Australia, New Zealand, and their most embarrassing result in their rugby history against Japan. They also had their worst Rugby Championship season on record. How much consolation a World Cup semi final place was is debatable.

          I’m not sure why you take such exception to the fact that some people regard 2015 as a worse year. It is not in any way a controversial opinion. You appear to have great difficulty in accepting differing opinions. I understand why you think 2017 is worse, clearly it has not been a great year for them.

        • D. Braithwaite’s The Brumbies

          ‘ My position is that he is not responsible for South Africa’s problems.’

          You’re yet to provide a shred of evidence for that opinion, and your opinion is directly contradicted by all available facts.

          ‘I’m not sure why you take such exception to the fact that some people regard 2015 as a worse year.’

          You’re the only person I’ve ever met who takes 2015 as a worse year for the Boks than 2016 or 2017. I think you might be the only person on planet earth who sees a 3rd place in the RWC worse than 2016 and 2017.

          Are you mates with Coetzee? I’m not trying to be a smart aleck, I’m honestly wondering if you happen to know him personally.

        • P00chie

          I don’t understand why you continue ignore the body of a post to lift a line in isolation in order to present another straw-man argument.

          But of course by the criteria you outline you are correct. If the sole factor to judge 2015 by is that South Africa reached the semi-final of the Rugby World Cup then of course it was a better year than 2016 and 2017. That is as obvious as the problems facing South African rugby being deeper rooted than the senior coach.

        • D. Braithwaite’s The Brumbies

          The 2015 RC was a shortened event. The team lost a close Test (7 points) to the greatest All Blacks side of all time in Joburg, then lost a close one to Australia in Brisbane (4 points) then lost a match to Argentina at home.

          The loss to Argentina is the only one that can in any way be considered bad. A loss to Australia in Australia is what usually happens, and Australia were the second best team in the world in 2015, and the All Blacks sides were the best team ever in 2011-15.

          The Boks went on to beat Argentina twice after this.

          The loss to Japan was horrible, to be sure, but Japan are better than Italy, who the Boks lost to under Coetzee.

          The Boks went on to beat Wales and made the semis of the RWC where they lost to the greatest team of all time by only 2 points.

          The Boks went on to win 6 of 11 matches in 2015 and get 3rd place in 2015.

          I cannot seriously believe you think this was a worse year than 2016 or 2017.

        • P00chie

          “I cannot seriously believe you think this was a worse year than 2016 or 2017.”

          I hope that you do not take a line out of context, ignore the rest and post another straw-man argument but…

          You stated that “the pathetic results did not appear until Coetzee took over.”

          My response was “I would imagine that many would argue that the year preceding Coetzee’s appointment was the true Annus Horribilis of modern South African rugby but to each his own. I certainly can understand why two outlier score-lines have upset the fanbase.”

          The point being that the “pathetic results” did not start with Coetzee and I deliberately did not say that I thought it was better/worse while highlighting that they have been on a run of bad years.

          I’m not sure where you want this to go. It seems like an awful waste of time.

        • D. Braithwaite’s The Brumbies

          Aside from the loss vs Japan 2015 was not a poor year. You’ve twisted facts to indicate that 2015 was a pathetic year. It wasn’t.

        • P00chie

          Actually I actually haven’t presented my conclusions about the results as facts. I’ve offered opinions and I have not attempted to discredit yours by telling you that you are wrong. My opinions are not facts and your opinions are not facts either. They are opinions.

          I politely requested that you not present another straw-man argument yet you argue against me calling 2015 a “pathetic year” while adding that I am lying about facts.

        • D. Braithwaite’s The Brumbies

          ‘I think it is an immature approach rife in sport when you sack an individual when they are not responsible for the problem.’

          Fact: 2016 and 2017 were pathetic years.

          If 2015 was not a pathetic year then literally this was Coetzee’s fault, given that the same structural problems have existed since far earlier than 2016.

          If 2015 was a pathetic year then there is validity to the argument it is not Coetzee’s fault.

          If 2015 was not a pathetic year then there is no evidence to suggest that the pathetic results in 2016 and 2017 were not Coetzee’s fault.

          You’re defending the indefensible in Coetzee, as he brings a proud rugby nation into mediocrity.

        • P00chie

          We’re back to square one now and you continue with a straw-man argument I explicitly called out in my previous post.

          I’ve made my opinion clear, you have no respect for it. Enjoy the rest of your day.

        • D. Braithwaite’s The Brumbies

          I have no issue with any opinion. However, I am reminded of the wise words of Daniel Patrick Moynihan:

          ‘Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts.’

        • Alister Smith

          Is South Africa’s white population in significant decline? Certainly there seems to be more and more immigrating to Australia and eslewhere. Are junior numbers declining as they are in certain part of Australia because of that? or does the increase in black/coloured players at a junior level counteract any decline?
          I am a bit reticent to criticise SA’s performance against Ireland until I see how well we perform against them next year. We struggled with England but I think, in many respects, this Ireland team is performing as well or better than England and they were the last national team (excluding the Lions here) to beat the All Blacks before we managed our recent win against them. Still the size of the loss must have been disappointing and frustrating for all SA supporters.

  • Kiwi rugby lover

    Point 5 is a bit rough mate. I don’t know why SBW attracts so much shit. He’s still one if the better 12’s around

    • Tommy Brady

      He’s like Richie McCaw KRL. They just wish he wore Green & Gold, not Black.

      • D. Braithwaite’s The Brumbies

        I probably wouldn’t pick him for the Wallabies anymore. He’s slow, has a poor pass and makes silly erross. Maybe 2-3 years ago when he was a bit faster.

        Laumape, Goodhue, Crotty, ALB and Ioane are centres I wish wore green and gold.

        • Kiwi rugby lover

          I tend to agree that Luamape is a more long term solution to 12 but apart from that one brain fart that didn’t even cost anything except make the French look better he had a bloody good game. I think he’s got a few seasons left and that as he gets older he’s developing more skills and is playing better

        • D. Braithwaite’s The Brumbies

          I still think we will see Crotty + either ALB or Goodhue by next year. Goodhue was phenomenal in Super Rugby, and seems to be in that Jonathan Davies/Conrad Smith mould of unbelievable defensive abilities + the ability make line breaks + great distribution skills.

          Scotty ‘Sumo’ Stevenson today said on the Rugby Round Up that he thought Goodhue could be a future All Black centurion. Anyway, we will see.

        • Kiwi rugby lover

          Yeah I’m not so sold on him I think he’s been made to look good in a good team. Also good Super rugby doesn’t always lead to good test rugby. I think Crotty and Luamape is a better combination. I’m not sure Crotty would do as well moving in one

        • Tommy Brady

          They are valid points. The correlation between torn achilles and an increase in speed of foot and movement is not high. You wonder if SBW just the latest statistic to that rule. His career feels at a crossroads – he has a big summer ahead of him to reinvent himself. I would be hesitant to bet against him.

        • D. Braithwaite’s The Brumbies

          We’ll see. He is a phenomenal athlete and a very hard worker so if anyone is to surprise me it would be him.

          That said, he has played rugby for 10 years and still hasn’t gotten stupid League plays out of his game; still hasn’t improved his passing; and Father Time catches up with everyone.

          I wish him the best though.

        • Alister Smith

          I agree. I was always a pretty average player anyway but after a fully ruptured achilles and a few months in a moon boot and on crutches I found it very difficult to recover even my lowly standards. The lost of speed over that first five yards appears to be the critical thing and footspeed a crucial part of the game – it makes the difference between making a gap or have it close on you or hitting the outside of a defenders arm as opposed to their shoulder. I think SBW still has plenty to offer but I am not sure I would start him – impact off the bench still worth it. Also once the achilles goes, unless his recuperation has been perfect, there seems to be a multitude of other injuries that follow, perhaps due to lack of balance. Knees and hamstrings etc that have greater strain on them because your running style has changed of perhaps because you are pushing that bit harder to make the gap because you have lost that foot speed. I hope he goes OK but they have plenty of options so I am sure Hansen will give him a chance but it wont be forever.

      • Hoss

        Didnt the Dark Lord Mccaw have a cousins aunty who once stayed here for 2 weeks – in this current climate – thats borderline citizenship – ipso facto……………………….

    • Ricky Johnson

      Don’t worry. What Australians call a larrikin, the rest of the world calls a tosser.

      • McWarren

        By that rule, there’s a lot toasters living in Bondi bro.

        • Ricky Johnson

          Thats poor. Have another go mate. And no, I’m not from NZ, bro.

    • Brisneyland Local

      I think that is just Nick’s attempt at humour. Because there are are far bigger tossers in the Wallabies than SBW.

      • BigNickHartman

        “attempt at humour” ooft :(

        • Brisneyland Local

          Big Nick, wasnt meaning to be harsh. But most of the others were really good. Just that one fell a bit flat.
          I am sure you could have slipped one in about airport bathrooms. That is always a winner!

        • BigNickHartman

          too late BLL, it’s over between us

        • Brisneyland Local

          Pity! I thought we had a good thing going there! ;-)

        • Hoss

          wait for the vote guys, wait for the vote………

        • Brisneyland Local

          Tip of the hat Hoss. That was fast!

        • Hoss

          Project managing at present mate and been dealing with Tradies & Suppliers. Have turned to GAGR for relief – that and a large whiskey and stiff BEX.

        • Brisneyland Local

          Mate I know the feeling. Make sure the Whiskey is a nice Islay (smokey / peatey) and you will be fine!

    • BigNickHartman

      argh, it’s related to what he did on the weekend!

  • Dud Roodt

    Fuck Mako is one weird looking unit.

    Reminds me of me mate Dave from Ali G https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/75010be81ed16bf3756a4e1926a0dd5dab5ed1982debcf65de4baa1b172342f1.gif

    • BigNickHartman

      is that dangerous dave or rainbow jeremy?

      • Dud Roodt

        Dangerous Dave of course!

        • BigNickHartman

          was Dangerous Dave the one who took 24 eccies in a night, and drove the eggham to langley bus better than he’d ever driven it before?

        • Dud Roodt

          Same bloke, wrong bus. You’re after the Egham to Ruislip bus

  • Hoss

    On fire today NH – some good laughs to kick-start the day.

    Interesting to hear what the senate finds, but i dont’ imagine it will be more than some of our esteemed colleagues on here have already mentioned over the previous months – seems like a flogging with wet lettuce leaves is coming.

    Be interesting dynamic for fans next year if the Rebels are there-about’s for the title and have a strong year – certainly on paper they seem well placed to compete for finals footy – along with the Reds. Emotions aside, what will be the final measure of the 4 team decision – wins over Kiwi Sides, Finals footy – a title, be an interesting 12 months ahead.

    • Dally M

      Well we won’t be finding out today, with all the Lambie citizenship nonsense going on, it will be held over again.

      • Hoss

        WA senate mate, not the basket case in ACT

        • Chris Bobridge

          The report is a Federal thing, so yes, same basket case in the ACT as you put it, Hoss.

        • Dally M

          Ha ha, you got me Hoss!

          I was searching for a WA Senate & thinking i was going mad cos i was sure i saw it on the agenda for today in Brumbie Town.

    • Dally M

      Report just tabled in the Senate now.
      Hopefully something good comes of it.

    • Dally M

      Outcome below.
      Recommendations 4 & 5 are interesting as it recommends referral to ASIC.
      LIST OF RECOMMENDATIONS

      Recommendation 1

      4.15 The committee recommends that the Australian Sports Commission

      consider an additional principle to be introduced in the Commission’s Sports

      Governance Principles in relation to National Sporting Organisations’

      commitment and duty to player welfare.

      Recommendation 2

      4.18 The committee recommends that Australian Rugby Union immediately

      transfer all intellectual property and trademarks associated with the Western

      Force to RugbyWA.

      Recommendation 3

      4.20 The committee recommends that the Western Australian Government:

      • review evidence to the committee in relation to the process used to

      eliminate Western Force from the national Super Rugby

      competition; and

      • seek further legal advice on what assurances were provided to them

      by Australian Rugby Union and in particular the Australian Rugby

      Union negotiations with both the Victorian and Western Australian

      Governments which informed the good faith investment decisions by

      the Western Australian Government on behalf of Western

      Australian taxpayers.

      Recommendation 4

      4.29 The committee recommends that the Australian Securities and

      Investments Commission review the evidence received by the committee

      regarding transactions involving the Melbourne Rebels.

      Recommendation 5

      4.30 The committee recommends the Australian Securities and Investments

      Commission review the financial circumstances reported in the Australian

      Rugby Union’s annual reports against the evidence presented to the committee.

      x

      Recommendation 6

      4.37 The committee recommends the Australian Rugby Union consider

      implementing measures outside of state based bodies which ensure the

      involvement and engagement with grassroots rugby union supporters,

      particularly in relation to consultation in decision making processes that concern

      significant change to the nature and future direction of the sport.

      Recommendation 7

      4.38 The committee recommends that the Commonwealth Government

      examine the structure of sporting organisations in Australia with a view to

      maximising community involvement, and increasing the accountability and

      transparency of organisations that bear the custodianship of a sport.

      Recommendation 8

      4.39 The committee recommends that the Commonwealth Government

      undertake a review of world’s best practice sporting policies in relation to sports

      funding and performance measures.

      • Hoss

        Cheers mate – apologies for delay.

        Its appalling reading, but nothing unexpected – the litmus test will be what comes from this now What structures, appointments will be made and the direction RA takes.

        Its like cricket in the late 70’s with Packer-ball looming. Now’s the time for a complete change to how Rugby is run. There’s a generous benefactor on the scene, an appetite for change and a chance to purge the decay that permiates the management of the ARU / RA.

  • Hoss

    In other news Matt Tomua has re-signed with Leicester – ruling him out of RWC 19.

    • Brisneyland Local

      That is a crying shame. I like that cut of that mans jib!

      • Hoss

        Call me opportunistic but if i was Foley i would be renegotiating my ARU (RA ??) contract about now – whats the old adage about supply and demand ( i am a Keynesian at heart) ?

        • Brisneyland Local

          You are spot on. The cynic in me says it is not a natural market forces issue of supply and demand. It is almost like the market is being short sold to favour a particular vendor. Because there is a supply, but the vendor has an exclusive contract, and no other supplier can get a look in!

    • Chinese Dave

      Damn, that’s a shame, scratch another 10 option. Hawera to the rescue!

  • Shtinatina

    PS – TPN had broken his right arm not his elbow ;)

  • Dorothy Ball

    28 Wees Later? That’s quite a few trips to the can. And how about that bloke who took Mako’s picture? He’d have to start a management company, surely.

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Hopes to play David Pocock in the inevitable biopic. Lifelong fan of whoever Jarrad Hayne is currently playing for.

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