Wallabies 2011 Involvement Rates

Scott Allen December 18, 2011 31

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This year in my analysis of games involving the Wallabies I’ve included a new way of measuring the level of work by players in the game – the “Involvement Rate”.   

The Involvement Rate is calculated as follows:

(Number Of Carries + Number Of Tackles Made + Number Of Breakdown Involvements) / Minutes Played

I don’t measure the Involvement Rate as a way of determining who is the best player for the Wallabies or even who is the most effective.

Any attempt to use statistics to show who was the “best” would include too many subjective decisions.  Statistics can’t be used to answer those questions unless someone sets the parameters of how the “best” is defined.

When we consider who was the “best” we take into account factors such as who scored the most tries, who scored the most points, who scored the winning try or points and who made the key plays in the game.  These are just some of the factors we consider and the list would be different for each person.  If a winger scores three tries in the game by catching the ball and falling over the line on each occasion, is it the winger or the player inside of him that drew the last defender and made the pass that deserves the credit? If the goal kicker kicks a penalty goal from in front to win the game, is it the goal kicker or the tight head prop that won the scrum penalty that deserves the credit?  If we could all agree that a game was won on defence, was the best player the player who made the most number of tackles or the player who made the most number of dominant tackles?  Or was it the player who made three try saving tackles?

You’ve probably all heard about the movie “Moneyball” starring Brad Pitt – I saw it last night and really enjoyed it.  I’ve also just started reading the book and it’s very interesting to learn how the measurement of baseball statistics has evolved over time.  The key thing behind the whole Moneyball concept was the different way the Oakland A’s team valued players by placing more importance on the way batters were judged.  The data was there for anyone to use – the A’s simply decided that using the statistic that had always been used to measure the effectiveness of batters was not as important as another statistic.  Their choice made a lot of sense to me but in making the choice they broke with the way that every other major league baseball team measured effectiveness.

When the A’s looked at players judged on what they believed was the key statistic they found that the players who performed best in that statistic happened to be among the poorer performers in the traditional statistic and as a result were amongst the players with the lowest salaries in baseball.  They went out and recruited and drafted as many of those players as they could which meant they could keep their payroll well below the top teams in the game. 

Essentially they decided that it was more important that a batter got onto first base rather than how they got there.  They didn’t care if the batter ignored as many pitches as possible to earn more balls and a walk to first base or whether they hit it a magnificent groundball to the fence and achieved the same result – they just had to make it to first base.  Their fundamental view was that if they had a high percentage of batters making it to first base, they would be advanced around to home by the other batters making first base and this was just as valuable as hitting home runs, which occurred much less frequently and it was much more expensive to buy players with good home run statistics.  That may sound basic but viewing things that way was considered radical.  Ultimately the A’s got results using their method and other teams adopted a lot of what they did.

The factors included in the Involvement Rate are there because I see them as the most important factors in determining how much work players are doing.  The fact that I don’t include factors such as passes, line breaks, scrums packed or involvement in lineouts doesn’t mean that they are any less important. 

The basics of rugby are – you catch the ball and run at the defensive line, you tackle any player with the ball who comes near you and you hit the breakdown wherever necessary to make sure your team retains the ball or in an attempt to disrupt the opposition’s possession.  And of course you win your set pieces but I measure that in another statistic. The more of each of those activities you can do, the more important you are to a team. 

As the Oakland A’s did I’m using things we’ve measured in rugby for a long time but looking at them in a different way, or more correctly in a different combination but don’t expect an “Involvement Rate” movie.

When I measure involvements I only measure what I believe are effective involvements in each category.

When it comes to a carry I’ll only record it if the ball carrier commits a defender, so no credit is given to a back three player who catches the ball, runs 20 metres and then passes the ball to a supporter when they’re still 10 metres away from the defensive line.  Similarly no credit is normally given to a player that catches the ball and passes it on straight away.  The definition I’ve set allows me to include as a carry a situation where a player catches and passes straight away under pressure as the defence rushes forward – they may not go forward but they have committed the defender trying to crunch them and in my view deserve credit. 

Tackles are obvious – I only record completed tackles and there is no deduction for missed tackles.  The question of missed tackles is covered separately in another statistic. 

Trying to give you a clear definition in words of what I consider a breakdown involvement is a little more tricky – the best way I can explain it is that if a player makes a hit on the breakdown with their shoulder, gets in position over the ball to protect it even if the other players have gone to ground or been cleaned out or in defence a player makes an attempt to play the ball, whether they are the tackler or not, I’ll record a breakdown involvement.  I don’t record an involvement for any player that stands at the side of the ruck acting as a pillar or any player who leans against the ruck when there was no threat that required them to even be there.  This is a subjective area but I’m the only one that codes the games, so you get a reasonably consistent view.

The Involvement Rate measure is weighted in favour of forwards because across the 14 games in the Wallabies 2011 season, breakdown involvements represented 52% of total involvements and 82% of those breakdown involvements were by forwards.  The backs led in the carry category with 53% whilst the forwards completed 67% of all tackles.  As a result, whilst the average Involvement Rate for the team across 2011 was 1.27, the forwards average was 1.64, nearly double the backs average of 0.84.  That sort of split fits with the obvious thing about rugby – the forwards set the platform for the backs to work with.  The Involvement Rate is still relevant for backs but primarily when measured against other backs.

Of course there are also differences between players in different positions.  You’d hope you’re your halfback has a very low Involvement Rate – you don’t want them having to get involved in breakdowns and they’re usually in a covering role in defence so you don’t want them having to make too many tackles.  In fact in a perfect game you’d only want them to have carries. 

You also wouldn’t expect to see a front rower having an Involvement Rate close to a back rower.  If you do, it’s an indicator that something is out of the ordinary – either the front rower did a lot of work in the game or the back rower didn’t!  That’s where I see statistics as being important – they alert you to areas that need to be looked at more closely to see where improvements can be made or opportunities can be taken advantage of.

Another factor that is relevant is whether a player starts a game and plays the entire game or is replaced at some point.  Obviously when that replacement is made and whether it is the result of an injury will also have some effect.  You’d also expect that players coming off the bench would have a higher Involvement Rate for the period they’re on the field as they’re fresh.  The results looking at some of these factors are interesting.  The Involvement Rate of players who started in a game but were replaced was 20% higher than for those who played the full game.  The Involvement Rate of players who started on the bench and came on as replacements was 24% higher than for those who played the full game.

Of course the results are different for different players.  An interesting example is Radike Samo who had an Involvement Rate of 1.27 for the season but an Involvement Rate of 1.01 in the games where he played the entire game, an Involvement Rate of 1.47 in the games where he started and was replaced but an Involvement Rate of only  1.19 in the games where he came off the bench.

I’ve talked about the way I measure each of the involvements but I also need to tell you about the other key factor – the minutes.  The Involvement Rates I’ve published prior to today have been based on an 80 minute game.  In hindsight this involves some inaccuracy because the average time played in the Wallabies 2011 season was 81 minutes 22 seconds per game. 

In addition, after the Wallabies game against Ireland at the World Cup one of our contributors, ‘Rucking Good Stats’ pointed out that there were some major variances between the amount of time the ball was actually in play during each game and this would also affect the Involvement Rate.  He was quite correct – the average time the ball was in play in all the Wallabies games in 2011 was 30 minutes 22 seconds or just 37% of the time on the clock.  In the game against Ireland the ball was in play for only 22 minutes 58 seconds or 28% of the time on the clock. That meant that the involvements in the Ireland game were achieved in only 63% of the time in other games. 

That factor was significant enough for me to know I had to make changes to the way I was measuring the Involvement Rate but the difficulty was in working out how long the ball was in play not just for the whole game but also how long it was in play for each player in the period that they were on the field, whether they started and were replaced or whether they came off the bench.  Fortunately the raw data I collect is time based and I was therefore able to extract that data.  To make sure we’re comparing apples to apples I’ve gone back over the entire 2011 season and extracted that data and re-calculated the Involvement Rate for each game based on the minutes the ball was in play so that what you see here today is as accurate as I can get it.

Whilst the results in any one game are interesting, there are other factors that make the results in any one game hard to compare to results in another game.  Those include the weather, the type of game played, what the opposition does, possession shares etc.  The results over a full season are even more interesting.  The table below shows the Involvement Rate for all Wallabies in 2011.

Game Time Whilst On Field Poss’n Mins Whilst On Field Carries Total Tackles Made Total Breakdown Involvements Total Involvements Involvement Rate Involvement Rate – Full Game Involvement Rate – Replaced Involvement Rate – Replacement
James Slipper 8:19:53 191.30 25 73 167 265 1.39 1.43 1.27 1.62
Sekope Kepu 12:01:03 258.00 29 76 275 380 1.47 1.48 1.39 1.56
Ben Alexander 14:17:32 320.45 65 106 315 486 1.52 1.53 1.84 1.09
Salesi Ma’afu 3:36:47 87.35 14 26 79 119 1.36 1.29 1.28 1.63
Pek Cowan 0:09:24 4.87 1 2 3 6 1.23 - - 1.23
Stephen Moore 11:00:03 244.95 85 106 214 405 1.65 1.76 1.58 1.42
Tatafu Polota-Nau 6:09:53 131.62 20 24 87 131 1.00 1.04 0.88 1.01
Saia Faingaa 1:40:05 48.67 6 34 54 94 1.93 - - 1.93
Dave Dennis 0:39:55 21.50 6 7 22 35 1.63 - 1.63 -
Nathan Sharpe 7:34:47 166.55 53 78 197 328 1.97 2.18 1.70 1.93
James Horwill 14:12:20 312.35 105 124 308 537 1.72 1.69 1.80 1.38
Rob Simmons 8:44:10 207.42 37 69 199 305 1.47 1.36 1.29 1.74
Sitaleki Timani 1:20:07 30.30 8 7 22 37 1.22 1.22 - -
Dan Vickerman 5:44:58 126.20 25 72 253 350 2.77 - 2.61 2.50
Wycliff Palu 1:29:59 30.33 5 11 26 42 1.38 1.27 - 2.30
Rocky Elsom 12:30:10 272.33 64 97 244 405 1.49 1.49 1.52 1.22
David Pocock 13:51:37 310.07 75 155 453 683 2.20 2.20 2.17 -
Ben McCalman 9:57:45 223.47 57 92 212 361 1.62 1.50 1.55 2.50
Scott Higginbotham 8:04:12 192.73 59 65 174 298 1.55 1.48 1.36 1.98
Matt Hodgson 1:34:19 36.07 7 25 49 81 2.25 - 2.55 1.93
Beau Robinson 0:29:28 11.88 1 3 29 33 2.78 - - 2.78
Radike Samo 9:34:03 209.83 55 75 137 267 1.27 1.01 1.47 1.19
Will Genia 14:54:21 332.87 130 53 9 192 0.58 0.56 0.54 0.87
Nick Phipps 2:03:03 45.90 9 9 8 26 0.57 - 0.70 0.46
Luke Burgess 2:29:32 55.33 18 16 15 49 0.89 0.78 - 0.99
Quade Cooper 13:48:57 296.87 191 33 40 264 0.89 0.86 2.26 -
Matt Giteau 1:20:07 30.30 23 4 7 34 1.12 1.12 - -
Berrick Barnes 6:28:59 150.35 54 49 43 146 0.97 0.98 0.86 0.99
Anthony Faingaa 9:00:29 199.77 31 59 133 223 1.12 1.22 1.15 0.96
Pat McCabe 11:37:23 253.40 65 111 84 260 1.03 1.03 1.13 0.54
Ben Tapuai 0:54:37 21.40 9 8 7 24 1.12 - - 1.12
Adam Ashley-Cooper 18:11:09 406.40 104 91 133 328 0.81 0.81 0.75 -
Rob Horne 3:32:40 87.00 18 20 41 79 0.91 0.95 0.95 0.85
Drew Mitchell 2:20:02 47.60 25 3 12 40 0.84 0.74 0.99 0.76
Digby Ioane 14:57:20 348.42 121 86 55 262 0.75 0.75 0.62 -
James O’Connor 14:11:23 316.92 109 72 76 257 0.81 0.80 1.01 1.22
Lachlan Turner 2:47:51 71.40 16 10 25 51 0.71 0.71 0.87 -
Kurtley Beale 10:22:35 225.70 103 39 61 203 0.90 0.88 0.80 1.84
Rod Davies 1:20:07 30.30 10 3 7 20 0.66 0.66 - -
Mark Gerard 0:54:13 19.98 9 2 9 20 1.00 - 1.00 -
Total 6,378.13 1,847 1,995 4,284 8,126 1.27 1.18 1.34 1.45
Forwards Average 1.64 1.59 1.63 1.68
Backs Average 0.84 0.84 0.83 0.94

I’ve attached a sheet that shows the Involvement Rate for each player in each game during 2011 so you can see how the measure varies from game to game.  Click here to download.

During the Wallabies bronze medal play off match against Wales in the World Cup I tweeted that I thought Scott Higginbotham was having a quiet game.  I had a few people tweet back who didn’t see it that way and thought he had done a lot of work in the game.  I made a mental note to look at that again when I analysed the match.  Unfortunately life got busy and it’s taken me until now to make comment.  Higginbotham’s Involvement Rate in that game was 1.23 and only Radike Samo and Tatafu Polota-Nau were lower in the forward pack.   Why did I see it differently to others?  Higginbotham carried the ball seven times in that game – equal highest in the forward pack with James Horwill (although Horwill was replaced earlier than Higginbotham).  We all know that Higginbotham is a very effective ball runner and he was again in that game.  I suspect the fact that he was prominent with his ball carries meant that the lack of work at the breakdown and in defence was easier to overlook.

For the entire 2011 season Higginbotham’s Involvement Rate was 1.55, a little below the average for forwards.  It was 1.48 when he played the entire game – again a little below average, 1.33 when he started and was replaced – again below average and 1.98 when he came off the bench – above the average for other forwards.  Does this mean he is best suited to a bench role?  Not necessarily – you’d have to look at the circumstances of each game to see if there were other factors having an influence.  He made 0.34 tackles per minute the ball was in play when he was on the field compared to the average for all forwards of 0.31 but there were 13 forwards who achieved a better result with Matt Hodgson topping that measure at 0.69.   Higginbotham was involved in 0.90 breakdowns per minute the ball was in play compared to the average for all forwards of 1.02 and there were 14 forwards who achieved a better result with Beau Robinson topping that measure at 2.44 in the short time he was on the field against Samoa.   Higginbotham carried the ball 0.31 times per minute the ball was in play compared to the average for all forwards of 0.23 and there were only three forwards with better results topped by Stephen Moore at 0.35 followed by James Horwill at 0.34 and Nathan Sharpe at 0.32.

I believe Higginbotham is at a point where he is the number one candidate to start at number 6 for the Wallabies (subject of course to form in Super Rugby).  I think the primary role of a number six is to be a ball runner and I believe that Higginbotham is the best ball runner the Wallabies can call on as whilst someone like Wycliff Palu is also a good ball runner, Higginbotham is so agile and quick he can get into space much better than many of the other back rowers.  But to fulfil his potential he needs to lift his work rate and that means he needs to play a little tighter.

I could comment on just about every player in the 2011 list but there are a few that stand out.  Tatafu Polota-Nau stands out for the wrong reasons – his season Involvement Rate of 1.00 is on par with many of the backs and is so low in comparison to the other forwards that I struggle to understand why he was even selected on the short End of Year tour and unless Stephen Moore was carrying an injury, I’m amazed that he started over Moore in the last game against Wales.  His Involvement Rates in the last four games of the Wallabies season have been very poor.  I can’t believe that if he’s being selected if he’s still carrying injuries but I can think of no other reason to explain what’s happened to his form.  And it’s not just that he’s not doing the work – he’s also not having the impact we all used to get so excited about.

Others that I should comment on in the forwards are Dan Vickerman who topped the 2011 Involvement Rate of any player with any substantial game time at 2.77.  He was only bettered by Beau Robinson at 2.78 in his short time against Samoa.  David Pocock came in at 2.20 but given the amount of time he played, that was in itself a remarkable effort.  The recent lift in performance around the park from Salesi Ma’afu compared to the other props is pleasing to see as his scrummaging has also come a long way.  Rob Simmons is another who needs to lift his work around the park – apart from the semi-final  against New Zealand he’s been consistently outperformed by the other locks.

In the backs Berrick Barnes and Anthony Faingaa have worked hard in recent games. Adam Ashley-Cooper’s numbers are not far away but the fact that he ended up slightly below the average for the other backs in 2011 reflects that it wasn’t his best season.  Rob Horne beat the backs average in each game – it would be nice to see what he can do if he can stay on the park.

My 2011 MOTS (Man Of The Stats) is a pretty obvious choice – Dan Vickerman.  To come back from such a long time out of the game at top level and do the amount of work he has done is a real achievement.

With the end of the Wallabies season I’ve also finalised a review of the key statistics for the Wallabies across the entire season.  Over the next few weeks I’ll publish articles analysing those statistics.

Merry Christmas to all of you and a G&GR New Year.

Discussion

  • cyclopath

    Scott, as usual a thoughtful and bloody interesting read. Your points about Higgers were well made – being obvious in one facet but anonymous (well, maybe that’s a bit hrash) in others. TPN’s numbers are an indictment, but many have posted how out of shape / form / condition he has been.
    I suppose Vicks is pretty skewed due to the “impact” nature of how he was used; if you start, and are pacing yourself a bit, because you don’t know if you’ll be on all game or not, end up having a ‘mare and get yanked, you’ll score badly, but I would guess it’s easier to go harder knowing you have a finite time on the field. In any event, it is interesting to see his level of involvement.
    Will have to re-read.
    Top stuff, mate.

  • royboi

    how long did that take you??
    awesome stuff mate, cheers!

  • Kiap

    Why count all carries as equal? We see feeble hit ups and flops for little to no gain. Sometimes it enables a roll-on but often it just increases the phase count against a set defence.

    Why is 7 carries for 14 meters in tight worth more than 6 carries for 60 meters in the loose? … Maybe sometimes it is and maybe plenty of other times it isn’t.

    The first base percentage in baseball is something more tangible. But I’m not sold on this simple carry count metric yet, Brad Pitt or otherwise.

    • cyclopath

      Fair point, some “carries” seemingly amount to little, but we all see how a series of effective pick and goes can sap a defence, and create holes around the breakdown and chances to go wide. A 15m carry out wide that gets isolated and turned over or goes into touch might look better for longer but amount to nothing over a 2m hit-up. The little things sometimes are the differentiators.
      It may not be a perfect measurement tool, but it’s bloody interesting nonetheless.

    • Mart

      “feeble hit ups and flops for little to no gain” eg Mcalman. I’ll shut up now.

    • Scott Allen

      I’m not trying to measure effectiveness – that is too subjective to measure statistically.

      I’m trying to measure involvements. I agree that the player with the most involvements may not be the most effective player but over a season it does give us an idea of who’s doing the work around the park.

  • Nicko

    Do you think carries, tackles and breakdown involvements are of equal importance to a team’s success?

    • Scott Allen

      I don’t think there’s one answer to that.

      If it’s an effective carry that creates a line break or leads to a try, it’s of greater importantance. If it’s a try saving tackle it’s of greater importance or if you win a turnover at the breakdown it’s of greater importance. Which is most important?

      That’s the problem with statistics – to measure importance or effectiveness you’d have to rank each type of event and it’s context in the game. It would be inaccurate to say a tackle is worth say 1.2 times that of a carry, hence I avoid measuring the effectiveness and just measure quantity.

      You could measure effectiveness but it would take a massive time commitment – to be accurate you’d have to rate each event as you watch the game, then go back to review the ratings to compare to similar events that occured in the game. Then you would have to review against similar events in other games to make sure you’re consistent. Even if I had the time, I wouldn’t fancy that job.

  • Garry

    Beau Robinson showed plenty of ticker in a beaten side against Samoa, his stats prove it. We can only wonder what difference he would have made in Ireland WC game.

    With such potential, isn’t it little wonder that Deans wanted to keep him away from our squad?

    Dingo. Ignorant? Not likely.

  • Robson

    Amazing work Scott, but I gotta admit it can get a bit baffling trying to sort out the wheat from the chaff on the chart visually. You need a pen and paper to record your own range of comparasions too. Most surprising result for me was Salesi Ma’afu, but you mentioned that too. Does Robbie Deans use statistical analysis like this? I would be interested to know, because if he doesn’t it’s about time that he did.

  • Red Slug

    That was an amazing read Scott I am not really a numbers persons but the article is a great read and easy to follow. Thanks for your time, passion and dedication it is obviously a pleasure.
    Look forward to your output in the Super Rugby Season!

  • Jimbo81

    Beau Robinson would have won us the world cup.
    I don’t agree with your statement that the primary function of 6 is a ball-runner. First and foremost 6 is a hitman, then mobile forward to win breakdowns, and if that’s done, loitering out in the backs for a hit up is fine. Important role yes but not primary task.

    • Scott Allen

      Jimbo

      Teams can use players in different roles dependant on game plan, conditions etc. No right or wrong in the different approaches.

      My preference is that the tighter roles belong to your locks and your #8 with your #7 playing on the ball. The one guy I think should play a little wider is your #6.

      Having said that, the width of #6 is for me no wider than outside #10, definitely not loitering out wide.

    • suckerforred

      Beau wouldn’t have won us the cup. He would have got us into the final, as I don’t think we would have lost to Ireland, but considering the atmosphere etc the AB’s were going to win the cup.

  • Ruggo.

    Great work Scott.

    I very much like and appreciate how you interperete the numbers to give them a context rather than just display the data and leave it at that.

    Have a Merry Christmas yourself and cheers for compiling this sort of analysis throughot 2011.

  • suckerforred

    Do the averages include all players no matter how much time they have spent on the field? I am in the camp that you need to exclude the outliers from any calculations – i.e. Beau for example – can we really draw conclusions from less then 30 min on the field in one game?

    The other thing that amazed me was the the ball is only in play for a little over a third of the game. Really? How did you measure this? I am not doubting you, am just curious how there can be such a difference between the offical time of a game and the amount of time the ball is played. But I am guessing that it is related to the definition on ‘in play’, hence the question.

    Over all great read and great work. Having just spent the last week building a model for a work problem (and I am guessing with a few weeks to come) I can appreciate the difficulty that you face doing this work and the subjectiveness of trying to measure a game and a players performance. One good thing that you did mention about the results that you show is the fact that you are the only one doing the analysis so should be consistant accross the games. Therefore rankings should be able to regarded as indicative (i.e. Vickers works harder then any other forward), and improvement accross a season can seen or not, which ever the case may be. Trend and comparisons are more relevant then actual figures.

    I am always aware that there is more then a grain of truth in two stastical quotes – 1) “Lies, damn lies and statistics”; and 2) “What wqould you like it to be / show?”.

    • Scott Allen

      Time in possession is measured from the time each team starts with the ball to when they end that possession.

      Start possession – when you receive the ball from a restart, when you win the ball from a set piece, when you collect it from a kick, when you win it at a breakdown etc.

      End possession – when ball is kicked, when ball is dropped, when a try is scored etc.

      Time in possession doesn’t include things like the time from when a penalty is awarded until the ball is won at a resulting lineout, time taken for a kick at goal, time to take a restart, time in between scrums etc.

      So it’s a measure of the time the ball was in open play as that’s the only time you can make a carry, make a tackle or be involved in a breakdown.

      • suckerforred

        Ahh understand now. So it is time in play in the Wallabies posession. Would this not be an irrelevant denominator for defensive involvements such as tackles? Therefore would it not be more accruate to use your original formula of time on the field perhaps adjusted for the times taken for penality kicks, conversions, lineout set up, etc.

        Not baiting, just interested in you point of view.

        • Scott Allen

          I measure time in possession for both teams to take account of defensive involvements in both tackles and breakdowns so this is the total time the ball was in open play in the game.

          The difference between the ball in play time and the clock is how much time is taken between possessions when the referee doesn’t call time off.

        • suckerforred

          Wow! That is just stunning. I would never in a millon years thought that there was that much time in a game where the ball was not in play.

        • Scott Allen

          Yes it’s amazing and there are stats from around the world that are similar.

          Once I saw this number I went investigating and for the Wallabies v Wales game at the RWC I did a full breakdown of where the lost time went.

          That will be included in an article I’m working on for the Christmas / New Year break including the time stats for all Wallaby games in 2011.

    • Scott Allen

      On the outliers, we can’t really draw any conclusion from such a short time on the field for someone like Beau but their effect on the average is miniscule.

      • Jimbo81

        Scott – Beau Robinson’s super 15 season was epic. I don;t understand why he wasn;t immediately elevated to the Wallabies opposite Pocock, or as a replacement – but everyone knows the selectors stuffed up the RWC.

  • wilful

    Nathan Sharpe’s figures look bloody good – everyone knows he works hard when he’s on the field. Funny he works harder when he plays a full game.

  • Jimbo81

    so why does Deans persist with non-performers?

  • http://twitter.com/sportamanda Amanda

    This is absolutely fabulous, Scott! Congratulations!

    I’ve been measuring work rates using tackles, breakdowns (attack and defence) and carries for my own games since early 2010. The nature of the game – number of set pieces, tries, penalty shots – certainly affects the stats based on overall match time – you’ve just done marvellously well to account for all that. Hats off!

    I’d just make the additional comment that the style of the game will also affect the involvement rates. For example, if a team is very persistent with the pick and drive, you’ll see comparatively higher breakdown counts for the forwards. It’s a minor point, though, and probably not very relevant to the Wallabies.

    Cheers, again. Very exciting to read.

  • wannabprop

    Love your work Scott – wonderful commitment. I find it interesting that it parallels my observations of players through only one (highly emotional) viewing of a game (via internet), e.g. (as you mentioned), Vickerman’s great workrate, Polota Nau’s poor form post injury, and Higginbotham loose etc.

    Do you know how they measure player stats in American Football (and if there’s something comparable)?

    Also, would love to see the same analysis applied to the ABs and SA when you’ve got a few spare weeks! Thanks for a great read.

  • Missing

    Wow. Thanks for this Scott. Very interesting and insightful.

    I think you’re right to put limits on just what this measures though. I’d keep it purely to work rate – although I understand that some measure of effectiveness is necessary here to make work rate meaningful. I’d also suggest that this is much more important for forwards, since the bread and butter of forward play requires hard yakka. I think the point about trend analysis is also a good one.

    Beyond that, I think its much more difficult to find a ‘moneyball’ style stat that can correlate with results – at least not in the same way as making first base correlates to home runs. I don’t think there is a keystone stat that a rugby coach could use to construct a list or even usefully judge performance.

    Baseball is much closer to a closed system than rugby. It has far fewer variables, particularly in terms of an individual batter. Rugby is so ensemble that statistics can never truly capture the things that produce opportunities and converts them into points. Even at the level of team selection the combination between players, the balance of experience and youth, the mix of consistent performance and game breaking flair are more important that the statistical properties of individual players.
    I think there has been a trend in rugby, and in sports science generally, towards breaking the game down into its basic components – technically, physically, strategically – which, while helpful in some obvious ways, obscures the wider ecology of successful rugby teams.

    On a tangent, there is a tendency in the statistical analysis of individuals athletes (in terms of weight, speed, strength, skills) to set in train a development model that produces a type cast player for each position – usually after the image of an established ‘best practice’ player. This has its upsides in terms of efficiency, streamlining, and all the other things associated with production lines, but it misses the fact that the best players always make hay out of their points of difference. This narrowing process is also evident at the level of team strategy, where there is sometimes little difference between the basic defensive and attacking structures of teams – particularly in Australia and NZ.

    This is all just speculation I guess. I think statistics can be revealing in particular, closely circumscribed areas. And I think that’s what you’ve done here. I also liked you’re earlier posts on patterns of play.

    But I guess I wonder about using this stuff as the basis for broader conclusions. I’ve seen too many players who are the fastest over 10 and 40 metres, but can’t sniff out the try line; too many big lifters in the gym, who never putt on hits; too many hard working opensides who find themselves buried under every ruck they can get near; and too many players dropped or cut based on the arbitrary interpretation of stats.

    Perhaps stats should be a useful aide to judgment but not the decisive consideration. Also, can I just say that I really like reading your posts Scott. I think they’re really interesting and valuable, and you obviously work really hard for our benefit. These comments are more in the way of engagement than dismissal.

  • tommo

    Great article and great work. Stats are really great. One thing that would be great to measure but cant be is a players mental strength and how much a player fires up players around him and makes other players go that bit harder. They give players around him the bit extra desire to win at all costs and the will to put their bodies on the line. Its a coaches role to find these players and ensure they are in a side.

  • Lee Grant

    Sorry I am late to this Scott.

    I have always been underwhelmed by stats and people who throw them at you on the forum as though they are sacraments to be worshipped. I was enthused by an involvement report you did earlier in the year and thought it was more relevant than some of the classic stats; though if a fellow attempts 10 tackles every game but only makes 5 of them, that would have to be of interest.

    I think your involvement method is of particular interest to the forwards. Sure some fellows get involved in a ruck when it would have been better not to, but by a large the high guy is more valuable.

    Whether he has a high rate because he gets off the ground quicker, or has a bigger engine, or can identify opportunities quicker, or yarda, yarda, it doesn’t matter – it’s the number of times he gets to 1st base that counts.

    I watched the movie myself last night. You had to feel sorry for those recruiting guys when the GM turned their world upside down. You could see a parallel discussion at a cricket selection meeting a few decades ago and selectors talking about a bowler’s average per wicket taken: a sacrosanct stat up to that time. Then a selector would ask: “But would he help take the 20 wickets required in each test of the series against their champion batsmen?”

    I was not surprised by the low count of TPN, but was by the high count of Vickerman – and his involvements usually have a bit of oomph about them too, don’t they?

    Well done Scott; thank you.

  • http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/ Gagger

    Finally saw Moneyball last night – now I get it!!

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