Sydney Subbies 2025

[Ref_Ted]

Whilst we are all watching the league instead of the Lions. I’ve had a crack at the divisions for next year to make a more even spread.

Outside of Div 1 the only 8 team Div. Everyone else is a 7 team comp, so there will be 2 byes to fit the 14 round season. Colts are still an issue but trying to fit the grade sides the best with like for like.

Div 1 5 Grades and Colts
Keeping the 8 team comp. With only UNSW possible to challenge the status quo. Newport deserve a 2nd year in Division 1 if they want it
1. Hunters
2. Mosman
3. Waverley
4. Colleagues
5. Mountains
6. Newport
7. Lindfield/Drummoyne/UNSW
8. Lindfield/Drummoyne/UNSW

Div 2 4 Grades and Colts
Hills with 3 grades this year and strong through the grades are the obvious ones to move up. Though I’ve moved Colleagues Colts to play with Irish as it’s a better fit travel wise.
1. Lindfield/Drummoyne/UNSW
2. Petersham
3. Forest
4. St Pats
5. Briars
6. Sydney Irish- With Colleagues colts 2.
7. Hills- No colts?

Div 3 2 Grades & Colts
The struggle with this division is finding enough teams with Colts and keeping Div 5 viable. It may be that if those clubs want to push up with Colts then we have a bigger Div 4 & 6. Hoping one of the bottom 3 find colts but potentially Brothers Colts could fit with Redfield if they don’t have a senior side?
1. Beecroft
2. Knox
3. LCOI
4. Hornsby
5. Redfield- No Colts?
6. Valley- No Colts?
7. Raptors- No Colts?
Brothers Colts?

Div 4- 2 Grades
Similar to this year but the top 3 clubs have been moved up to boost Div 3. Swapped this Div with Div 5 as it links more with Div 3. Harbour have been paired with Convicts given there location and Harbours strength in a 1 team comp.
1. Blacktown
2. Harlequins
3. Renegades
4. Epping
5. Canterbury
6. Harbour/Convicts
7. Manly

Div 5 1 Grade and Colts
The old Div 4… Some of these clubs may be eyeing a spot in Div 3 with 2 Grades. Though move anyone up you struggle to properly fill this Div. Hoping to see Barker back in Grade.
1. Wakehurst
2. Mac Uni
3. Chatswood
4. Kings
5. Balmain
6. Barker
7. Burraneer- Burra Seniors alongside Burra Colts but still 2 clubs…

Div 6 1 Grade
Not to many changes from this year other than Maccabi and St Ives moving back down as a 1 team club.
1. Merrylands
2. North Cronulla
3. Oatley
4. Georges River
5. Penrith
6. Maccabi
7. St Ives

Apologies if I’ve missed anyone….. Based off the current split and assuming numbers for clubs are similar to this year.

Rumour mill, North Cronulla to take over Burra Colts and move to Div 5, maybe Div 3? Big numbers in grade this year, not quite enough for 2 grades though. Desperately needs support from Souths who are afraid they will take players. However, North Cronulla are only interested in those that would otherwise stop playing if they missed out at Souths.
Burraneer will go back to focussing on juniors only.

 

[Odyssey_Park the 2nd]

Rumour mill, North Cronulla to take over Burra Colts and move to Div 5, maybe Div 3? Big numbers in grade this year, not quite enough for 2 grades though. Desperately needs support from Souths who are afraid they will take players. However, North Cronulla are only interested in those that would otherwise stop playing if they missed out at Souths.
Burraneer will go back to focussing on juniors only.

Either way thought it was a better fit than having them drive an hour up to Latham. Better fit with a local side and hopefully see some growth in the 1 club sides in that area. Still leaves us with the Burra senior abd junior split

 

[Prodigy]

Div 5 predictions
Maccabi v Raptors - the boys from the west will be looking to finish strong. Finals bound and seeking momentum.
Renegades v HVRU - still down on personnel, we're going to find this tough going against a settled lineup. Valley by a few.
Epping v Canterbury - shouldn't be a surprise here.
Harlequins v Redfield - Quins were in it for a long part of the game last time but ROBRs have all their stars back and will be a different prospect.

Canterbury over Epping???
Aren’t the Berries eggs in the second grade basket now?

 

[Pfitzy]

Canterbury over Epping???

Whoops my bad. Was so busy using bold on away teams I lost my train of thought

Aren’t the Berries eggs in the second grade basket now?

Did first grade ever get given any eggs?

 

[Fletch]

Whilst we are all watching the league instead of the Lions. I’ve had a crack at the divisions for next year to make a more even spread.

Outside of Div 1 the only 8 team Div. Everyone else is a 7 team comp, so there will be 2 byes to fit the 14 round season. Colts are still an issue but trying to fit the grade sides the best with like for like.

Div 1 5 Grades and Colts
Keeping the 8 team comp. With only UNSW possible to challenge the status quo. Newport deserve a 2nd year in Division 1 if they want it
1. Hunters
2. Mosman
3. Waverley
4. Colleagues
5. Mountains
6. Newport
7. Lindfield/Drummoyne/UNSW
8. Lindfield/Drummoyne/UNSW

Div 2 4 Grades and Colts
Hills with 3 grades this year and strong through the grades are the obvious ones to move up. Though I’ve moved Colleagues Colts to play with Irish as it’s a better fit travel wise.
1. Lindfield/Drummoyne/UNSW
2. Petersham
3. Forest
4. St Pats
5. Briars
6. Sydney Irish- With Colleagues colts 2.
7. Hills- No colts?

Div 3 2 Grades & Colts
The struggle with this division is finding enough teams with Colts and keeping Div 5 viable. It may be that if those clubs want to push up with Colts then we have a bigger Div 4 & 6. Hoping one of the bottom 3 find colts but potentially Brothers Colts could fit with Redfield if they don’t have a senior side?
1. Beecroft
2. Knox
3. LCOI
4. Hornsby
5. Redfield- No Colts?
6. Valley- No Colts?
7. Raptors- No Colts?
Brothers Colts?

Div 4- 2 Grades
Similar to this year but the top 3 clubs have been moved up to boost Div 3. Swapped this Div with Div 5 as it links more with Div 3. Harbour have been paired with Convicts given there location and Harbours strength in a 1 team comp.
1. Blacktown
2. Harlequins
3. Renegades
4. Epping
5. Canterbury
6. Harbour/Convicts
7. Manly

Div 5 1 Grade and Colts
The old Div 4… Some of these clubs may be eyeing a spot in Div 3 with 2 Grades. Though move anyone up you struggle to properly fill this Div. Hoping to see Barker back in Grade.
1. Wakehurst
2. Mac Uni
3. Chatswood
4. Kings
5. Balmain
6. Barker
7. Burraneer- Burra Seniors alongside Burra Colts but still 2 clubs…

Div 6 1 Grade
Not to many changes from this year other than Maccabi and St Ives moving back down as a 1 team club.
1. Merrylands
2. North Cronulla
3. Oatley
4. Georges River
5. Penrith
6. Maccabi
7. St Ives

Apologies if I’ve missed anyone….. Based off the current split and assuming numbers for clubs are similar to this year.

Reasonably confident Penrith should have 2 teams next year.

 

[Fletch]

Gee, looks like Emus might have found their spot (got to be a lot better than consistently losing by cricket scores at any rate).

Four YCs seems like there's still some poor discipline issues though.

It's a tough old game some days.The video tells the story.

 

[Odyssey_Park the 2nd]

I assume it’s double points for everyone in Div 2 and 3 this weekend. (With the exception of Irish/Forrest).
Only seen UNSW advertising it.

 

[sterlingmortlocksgloves]

Whilst we are all watching the league instead of the Lions. I’ve had a crack at the divisions for next year to make a more even spread.

Outside of Div 1 the only 8 team Div. Everyone else is a 7 team comp, so there will be 2 byes to fit the 14 round season. Colts are still an issue but trying to fit the grade sides the best with like for like.

Div 1 5 Grades and Colts
Keeping the 8 team comp. With only UNSW possible to challenge the status quo. Newport deserve a 2nd year in Division 1 if they want it
1. Hunters
2. Mosman
3. Waverley
4. Colleagues
5. Mountains
6. Newport
7. Lindfield/Drummoyne/UNSW
8. Lindfield/Drummoyne/UNSW

if you say 5 grades + colts then you automatically lose Drummoyne and Newport as they haven’t fielded a Sutherland side this year.

Yep

 

[Heavyd]

Div 1

Big week at Soldiers Memorial this weekend with Old Soldier vs Drummoyne being the one to watch. A good day from either club could see them break free from the bottom of the CC battle. Lindfield then host Newport the following week which will be another crucial battle for both clubs to avoid the spoon.

Hunters vs Mountains: Battle of the big men, can see plenty of points in this one with the skillful HH backline running riot late for a 15+ win.

Waverley vs Colleagues: Local derby with plenty to play for. Colleagues will be desperate for a win to give themselves some TOP 4 breathing space. Will be interesting to see how many Waverley players are in Adelaide for the weekend supporting the Lions? I'm going to go the upset and a Blue giants win by 7

Lindfield vs Drummoyne: MOTR so much at stake and I think Old Soldier will grind out a 10+ win.

Newport vs Mosman: An injury ravaged Newport got a towel up at Drummoyne last start, so the Whales will be licking their lips for their first visit to Porters in 20+ years. The other big game worth keeping on eye on is the top of the table colts clash with Mosman 1 vs Newport 2. Plenty of niggle in their first encounter so this one is shaping up as a powder keg.

Aus/NZ vs Lions: Heavyd tips taking the $7 on offer H2H. Gamble responsibly.

 

[Pfitzy]

Lindfield vs Drummoyne: MOTR so much at stake and I think Old Soldier will grind out a 10+ win.

Lindfield might be missing their starting half and captain after a red card last time out against Whales? Will that change things?

Having watched the game, probably lucky more red cards weren't issued. Fair bit of niggle and off-the-ball action.

 

[Odyssey_Park the 2nd]

Lindfield might be missing their starting half and captain after a red card last time out against Whales? Will that change things?

Having watched the game, probably lucky more red cards weren't issued. Fair bit of niggle and off-the-ball action.

I thought the 9 for Lindfield was hard done by ending up with a red but given it was a double yellow and not a straight red. Just got him into an awkward position close to the ground rather than the true lifting tackle.
Whilst justified, I don’t think there was any intent from the Mosman 4. Came through recklessly and took out the player in the air. Tough to get 3 weeks for that tackle.

 

[Champagne Rugby]

Double points round in div 3 and the start of third round of teams versing each other.

Blacktown v Knox: Blacktown are winless so far in the division and I don't expect this to change. I expect Knox to be too classy for Blacktown in both the backs and forwards, with Knox to secure a comfortable bonus point win. Knox by 23

Hills v LCOI: Iggies are improving and need to pull an upset somewhere if they want to make the finals, but they are meeting a team who after beating Beecroft last week could claim they are the number 1 team in the ladder and have no real obvious weakness to exploit. Hills by 15.

Hornsby v Hills: Beecroft won by over 50 points last time they played each other in round 1. Hornsby are improving as the season approaches the pointy end hills, whereas Beecroft seem to be struggling with injuries and a lack of depth. Despite this I cant see Hornsby flipping the tables when , but they will make it a lot closer then last time. Beecroft by 12

 

[Pfitzy]

I thought the 9 for Lindfield was hard done by ending up with a red but given it was a double yellow and not a straight red. Just got him into an awkward position close to the ground rather than the true lifting tackle.

I would have thought the other Lindfield player involved made it worse than it probably could have been.

As for the Mosman #4 I tend to agree - I guess the deterrent factor is key.

 

[Pfitzy]

Just saw on UNSW social media that Pats have forfeited 4th grade. School holidays is hitting a few clubs as I see Brothers also sent out a call for their Colts and Wakehurst

 

[Odyssey_Park the 2nd]

Just saw on UNSW social media that Pats have forfeited 4th grade. School holidays is hitting a few clubs as I see Brothers also sent out a call for their Colts and Wakehurst

Is it school holidays with Pats or are we seeing the drain on clubs 3/4 through a tough year for them. There lower grades aren’t winning as much as they have and it’s hard to keep guys engaged and keen to play. A few years ago a big club like Pats would have asked guys to double up rather than forfeit.
if your not at the business end of the table it’s a tough time of the year fir clubs

 

[Pfitzy]

Is it school holidays with Pats or are we seeing the drain on clubs 3/4 through a tough year for them.

I was only really using the school holidays argument for brothers/Wakehurst as they'd explicitly stated it

 

[Heavyd]

School holidays, bumper ski season, a warm European summer, Lions in Adelaide. There is no shortage of options.

 

[Pfitzy]

Looking at Pats at this point:

1st XV 6th 2 wins
2nd XV 4th 4 wins
3rd XV 5th 3 wins
4th XV 5th 2 wins
Colts 1st 7 wins 1 draw (undefeated)

We know their Colts have been pretty strong the last few years, and the idea is that Colts transition into Grade.
So is this not happening?
Or not happening at a fast enough rate to offset the attrition in Grade?
I believe they've also had a lot of guys doubling up in the lower grades over the same time period.

Their Barraclough results are:

R1 Loss v UNSW 34-7 away
R2 Loss v Forest 26-32 home
R4 Loss v Shammies 19-7 away
R5 Win v Irish 27-19 away
R7 Loss v Forest 34-19 away
R8 Loss v Briars 30-14 away
R9 Loss v Shammies 0-20 home
R10 Win v Irish 36-32 home

It isn't an easy division with Shammies seemingly on the upswing as well as UNSW who have had a good run recently but were not able to stave off Newport in the last few years.

Are we hitting another marker where anything beyond 3 Grades + Colts is a bridge too far?

 

[Odyssey_Park the 2nd]

The unfortunate thing with Div 2 is if we see a club like Pats say next year it would be easier to run 2 grades and Colts plus a Halligans or a drop in Irish’s numbers after the Lions tour that division won’t exist which leaves the bigger clubs in no man’s land and creates a huge gulf between Div 1 and the rest. If there’s no Div 2 what happens to UNSW, Petersham and Forest next year?

 

[Pfitzy]

We've had these gulfs before e.g. no Div 4 (in its tradiational 3 Grade format) through a long part of last decade.

The development machine simply isn't generating enough personnel to consistently feed clubs at Subbies level. Trying to maintain a recruitment pipeline isn't possible for smaller clubs, who rely on word-of-mouth. Chatswood and LCOIRFC have enough numbers to run 2 Colts teams some weeks; Hills and Renegades have maybe half a dozen players each at U21.

There are stacks of U20 players at Premier clubs, but not all of them, and not in an even fashion.

Yet, no plan is forthcoming to address this despite numerous suggestions.