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School sporting scholarships/recruitment

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en_force_er

Geoff Shaw (53)
As I stated HJ, there is at least one young man having his fees paid by NSWCB. The player in question is overtly open about it, much to the chagrin of his fellow 1stXl team members. Is GPS schooling going to add to this one boy? I hope so, because if he fails at Cricket. Anyhoo, are we all just kidding ourselves here?

Hmm, I don't think there are many boys within scholarship heavy schools that dislike the scholarship system. They are probably pretty happy to be playing alongside of athletes who can help them win.

On a different point, the reality is every year players work there butt off and miss out on playing a 1sts sport, a scholarship player only means that one more kid misses out. Why should we feel worse for a kid that misses out for a scholarship kid when there's probably an equally hard working kid playing 2s who missed out for a non-scholarship kid? I'm not pro scholarships, but I've never understood this reasoning. If you're an awesome 13 and they get a scholarship 13, you play wing. If you're not quite good enough to make the side you play 2s with everyone else in your situation.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Hmm, I don't think there are many boys within scholarship heavy schools that dislike the scholarship system. They are probably pretty happy to be playing alongside of athletes who can help them win.

On a different point, the reality is every year players work there butt off and miss out on playing a 1sts sport, a scholarship player only means that one more kid misses out. Why should we feel worse for a kid that misses out for a scholarship kid when there's probably an equally hard working kid playing 2s who missed out for a non-scholarship kid? I'm not pro scholarships, but I've never understood this reasoning. If you're an awesome 13 and they get a scholarship 13, you play wing. If you're not quite good enough to make the side you play 2s with everyone else in your situation.

I agree up to a point.
In 100+ years of GPS rugby, however, for all but the last 10 (or less) years each school lived with the random weakness of that kid and, either, overcame it or didn't win as much as they otherwise would have. Every school had more than 1 of those kids every year and in those years, before this started, all of the schools could have gone out and found players to plug that and all their weaknesses.
In those days there were 8 competitive schools.
Now there are 6 and soon there will be 5: there will be 4 competitive games in the GPS comp when we get to that point.
Is that a good number? I think not.
Is it good to take players from public schools thereby narrowing, even further, the source of players and the reach of our great game? I think not.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
I agree with the Inside Shoulder (and others) unsustainable arms race line in many respects. I don’t think this is Scholarship or Bursary driven. Indulge me in a little meander before I get to what I believe is the root cause of the Arms Race.

Should the big fish stay in the small pond?
One issue to consider is that with the dearth of opportunities to practice Heavensgame in most public schools (compared to the last 100 years where sport and rugby were more prominent than they are now in the public school system), how does the talented (and possible dual coder) kid get regular tough rugby games and development opportunities if he stays within the public system?

It could be said that Village Club footy is designed to fill that gap. But look at the numbers of teams in the higher age groups in Sydney Juniors and there is not much opportunity for this to occur. Secondly many of the "tougher" Juniors rugby competition games are now played on Sunday. While this suits the Saturday School playing kids who can get two games a weekend, Sunday is the main game day for mungoball. The dual coder can be lost to rugby at a critical development phase if they can not get into a tough Saturday competition. For many kids (and family) this may mean a very large commute for questionable quality of game. In most of the upper age groups in the Sydney Saturday competition, there are only 2 or 3 genuinely competitive opponents in the competition. Hardly a viable development tool.
Would you blame parents who put together DVD and CV’s in a hope to get their talented kid enrolled into a glamour school?
Don’t forget the influence of Mungo, and Shute Shield talent scouts and managers. These guys are driven by either personal or club driven needs, and care little about more philosophical issues such as a balanced and fair competition across all NSW High schools.

How rife is School Driven Importing?
I sometimes wonder about the actual level of "importing" that is going on out there in School land, and think that it is actually significantly less than most would otherwise believe.

I think the number of actual scholarships/bursaries/ assisted students is inflated for the following reasons:

Self esteem. "If I tell everyone that I am/my son is on a rugby scholarship, it will make me feel good, and others will respect me for my/my son’s obvious superiority"

Jealousy. "That kid is good, and I didn't notice him last year, so he must be an import on a scholarship".
Could be a late developer, or a victim of selection politics from the previous year, who was in the C's or D's last year.

Athletic Development. "That kid was at xxxxx Boys High last year. He made Zone Under 15's, therefore he must be on a scholarship".
The parents or extended family may have found some funds to send their talented athlete to a private school for senior college that they believe may assist the boys long term athletic development better than staying at xxxxxx Boys High School. This may possibly be for one year only (Y12) 'cause it is really expensive but they are prepared to mortgage the house for their boy's future prospects. This is obviously a scholarship. Is that family going to send their boy to Newtown High School of Performing Arts to enhance his Athletic Development? I know it is a public high school but have used this example for hyperbole purposes.

Racism/Snobbery. "That good player has a different skin colouring/ethnic/socio economic background to those I usually expect at xxxxx College, and they are a good athlete. They must be on scholarship". “The family do not have a BMW 4WD. Their 1996 Tarago proves that they can’t afford the fees, therefore they must be on a scholarship”. “They live in Bankstown. I can’t believe that they can afford the fees. They must be on a scholarship” etc.
Say no more.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story when trying to reconcile the present day comparatively poor performance of your previously “awesome” old school, console your ego and retain your bragging rights over old foes; or dealing with your precious child that has just become roadkill from a poorly executed tackle on a boy in the JGS/NGS programme. “They have to be cheating”.

A Victim of their own Marketing Success?
In many respects the GPS in particular Schools are a victim of their own marketing success with parents being drawn towards those schools based on the perception that their son will be better off educationally or athletically if they attend. I know of plenty of parents who have mortgaged their houses to be able to send their kids to certain schools. Did this happen back in the day?

Once a school gets a name for having a soft rugby programme, then those who seek better rugby development for their boys (victims of GPS marketing reinforcing parental perceptions and prejudices) will desert that school en mass further reducing the ability of that "soft" school to compete with the big guns. It would take a very brave and principled parent NOT to joint the exodus away from the perceived rugby easy beats.

This is how the Rugby Arms Race begins, and has almost got to a point where it is now more or less self sustaining because Rugby is a legitimate occupation, something it was not for most of the 100+ years of the AAGPS.

Yes it will eventually disappear up its own fundamental orifice, in the same way that all empires always do.
Do not fear another will rise from the ashes, as it always does.


Who is Guilty?
How many kids are actually on genuine AAGPS code of practice breaching scholarships?
Sydney High – Probably none (Selectively academic, but are trying hard to attract more sporty smart kids in senior college provided they can keep up with the academic workload)
Grammar – Probably none
Armidale – Probably not. It would only be an issue if, and when, they started beating the city schools.
Shore – Probably none.
Joeys – hard to believe there are many, if any
View - hard to believe there are many, if any
New, Kings, Scots – All are frequently accused of being in breach, but I would be very surprised if there were genuinely more than 3 per year in senior college, and perhaps 1 or 2 per year in the middle school. Most of these would be rather arms length scholarships as well.

The above statements are made on the basis of Gaggerlanders contributions to this and other threads.
When the subject of Scholarships comes up, despite sweeping statements of mass importing made by some, when it all comes down to brass tacks, it seems to be no more than a few names from each school that are mentioned. These same names come up with monotonous regularity. None of this indicates to me that Importing/Scholarshiping is the big problem many make it out to be.

The Root Cause of the Arms Race – Full Fee Paying Parents
I believe that the Sydney GPS Rugby arms race is being fuelled by full fee paying Parents rather than scholarships.
Cash flow from Parental demand means the schools have more money to spend on their rugby programme, coaches, facilities, tours, resources etc. The schools must meet Parents expectations for an advanced rugby programme; otherwise they would lose their rugby Cash Cow revenue stream. Parents with talented athletes (real or otherwise) will seek out the school with the good rugby programme and resources. They will pay full fees for that privilege. The School will then have more athletically capable kids who are able to win premierships, taking full advantage of their rugby programme, coaches, gyms, resources etc. A vicious circle.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Very good post HJ - a lot of sense made.
I think you are right about the "root cause" but I would add that many schools are judged by their old boys on the basis of rowing and rugby.
I am sure there is pressure to maintain these because most of the schools are very close to their old boy associations and many if not most of them have old boys on their boards.
Of course some or many old boys send their kids to the school they went to which no doubt ramps this up some more.
 
R

Regina George

Guest
This is how the Rugby Arms Race begins, and has almost got to a point where it is now more or less self sustaining because Rugby is a legitimate occupation, something it was not for most of the 100+ years of the AAGPS.

Yes it will eventually disappear up its own fundamental orifice, in the same way that all empires always do.
Do not fear another will rise from the ashes, as it always does.



beautiful.
 
T

TheAustrianSchnitzelhaus

Guest
My main ailment with the system is for poor old Timothy. Little Timmy busts his guts out every training session. Every weights session. Every tackle bag. 13As. 14As. 15As. 16As. Then, as he is fighting for that inch over the summer, working his ball skills, his fitness, and his size, vying for that position for the 1st or 2nd XV, to his dismay 5 boys join the school in year 11, and push poor young william into the 3rd XV. And the main reason for such an emphasis on sport in the GPS being for the development of character and rounding the individual, this is a hypocrisy that seems to go unnoticed.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
My main ailment with the system is for poor old Timothy. Little Timmy busts his guts out every training session. Every weights session. Every tackle bag. 13As. 14As. 15As. 16As. Then, as he is fighting for that inch over the summer, working his ball skills, his fitness, and his size, vying for that position for the 1st or 2nd XV, to his dismay 5 boys join the school in year 11, and push poor young william into the 3rd XV. And the main reason for such an emphasis on sport in the GPS being for the development of character and rounding the individual, this is a hypocrisy that seems to go unnoticed.
and what happened to timothy?
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
My main ailment with the system is for poor old Timothy. Little Timmy busts his guts out every training session. Every weights session. Every tackle bag. 13As. 14As. 15As. 16As. Then, as he is fighting for that inch over the summer, working his ball skills, his fitness, and his size, vying for that position for the 1st or 2nd XV, to his dismay 5 boys join the school in year 11, and push poor young william into the 3rd XV. And the main reason for such an emphasis on sport in the GPS being for the development of character and rounding the individual, this is a hypocrisy that seems to go unnoticed.

See post #890. You fall into category 2 of 6.

Little Timmy Williams will miss out on 1st XV slots if the school "imports", or if full fee paying parents send their talented athlete for year 11/12 only (cause that is all they can afford).

Are you suggesting that there should be no movement between schools, or only those kids who have been at a school since year 7 are allowed to play in 1st XV's.

IIRC Queensland have a rule that "new entrants" can not play 1st XV (or represent GPS or something) in the year they change schools.
This measure seems well intentioned, but overlooks the genuine non-importing changes of school, effectively punishing the kid for one season. All this means is that kids (imports) would change schools in the last days of term 4 the previous year. If the ruling is that they must spend 1 full term at the school before playing, then the registration of the "import" occurs on the last day of term 3, etc...
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
All this means is that kids (imports) would change schools in the last days of term 4 the previous year.
Precisely what happened with the NSW u16 boys who showed up at Stanmore in 4th term 2011: no doubt thinking that they could escape detection by the eagle eyed conspiracy theorists at GGR.
 

en_force_er

Geoff Shaw (53)
My main ailment with the system is for poor old Timothy. Little Timmy busts his guts out every training session. Every weights session. Every tackle bag. 13As. 14As. 15As. 16As. Then, as he is fighting for that inch over the summer, working his ball skills, his fitness, and his size, vying for that position for the 1st or 2nd XV, to his dismay 5 boys join the school in year 11, and push poor young william into the 3rd XV. And the main reason for such an emphasis on sport in the GPS being for the development of character and rounding the individual, this is a hypocrisy that seems to go unnoticed.

What happens to the boy that does the same thing at a non-scholarship school and misses out because he didn't grow as much as he hoped?

It's a harsh world and there are plenty of reasons to hate scholarship, a keen kid missing out on a team is not one of them because then where does the buck stop? In my coaching experience keen-ness and talent sadly often don't reside in the same individuals, but the keen kids always become better people simply for trying,
 

CTPE

Nev Cottrell (35)
Who is Guilty?
How many kids are actually on genuine AAGPS code of practice breaching scholarships?

Shore – Probably none.
Joeys – hard to believe there are many, if any
View - hard to believe there are many, if any

Just out of interest in what school year did the following boys arrive at their current education destination?

SHORE

1. Streeter
2. Fitzpatrick
3. McCathie
4. Rickard
5. Fishburn
6. Cooke
7. Woodhill
8. Buckling
9. Pulver
10. Clancy
11. Buchanan-Reekes
12.Koukoullis
13. Arnold
14. Oldham
15. Davies

JOEYS

1, Robertson
2. Carolan
3. Sandell
4. Bartlett
5. O'Brien
6. Goldie
7. Murphy
8. Watts
9. Curtain
10. Deegan
11. Newsome
12. Pay
13. Barclay
14. Wilde
15. Kay

RIVERVIEW

1. Barnes
2. Barker
3. Kelly
4. Rorke
5. Cutler
6. Dempsey
7. May
8. Whiteley
9. C Freeman
10. Bird
11. B Freeman
12. Lyons
13. Redden
14. Molloy
15. Robertson

No doubt some have been there since year 7 and even earlier whilst others have arrived in later years for varying reasons.

Looking forward to the answers.
 

Brian Westlake

Arch Winning (36)
JOEYS

1, Robertson Year 9'
2. Carolan Yr 7 last of 3 boys
3. Sandell Yr 9
4. Bartlett Yr 11, but from Newington
5. O'Brien Yr 7 and 3rd generation
6. Goldie Yr 7
7. Murphy Yr 7
8. Watts Yr 7 or 8 not sure.
9. Curtain Yr 7
10. Deegan Yr 7 and 2nd or third generation
11. Newsome Yr 7 and 2nd Gen
12. Pay mum is a Schwager so about 94th generation...
13. Barclay Yr 7
14. Wilde Yr 7
15. Kay Yr 7 and the second of two


No doubt some have been there since year 7 and even earlier whilst others have arrived in later years for varying reasons.

Looking forward to the answers.[/quote]
Also with Josh Schwager out due to injury year 7
And O'Donahue came in Year 11 as a full payer due to 3 or 4 generations on his Mothers side.

I think we all look forward to the answers.
 
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