Rugby League really gives me the shits

[Braveheart81]

The principle is the same,regardless of the crime.
Let's say someone breaks your jaw,and is not allowed Justice mediation. They go to court,get a Section 10 and a 12 month good behaviour bond.
Is that a free pass?

No. I don't think it is a free pass.

The most common outcome for this offence would be recording a conviction and issuing a good behaviour bond.

If the person has a criminal history then a custodial sentence is possible and if they have no criminal record then it is possible they will get a section 10 and a good behaviour bond.

I think our system is good whereby a magistrate has some discretion to sentence the perpetrator based on all the relevant facts.

Clearly the crime is important. The more serious the crime, the less likely you are to get a section 10.

 

[I like to watch]

I don't need you to explain the court process,.
Just your thought process on how in this instance a Section 9 & 10 would not be a "free pass".
Assuming the perpetrator does not re offend during the Bond period.There is no punishment whatsoever.To my mind that is a free pass.
What am I missing?

 

[Braveheart81]

I don't need you to explain the court process,.
Just your thought process on how in this instance a Section 9 & 10 would not be a "free pass".
Assuming the perpetrator does not re offend during the Bond period.There is no punishment whatsoever.To my mind that is a free pass.
What am I missing?

Isn't that the point of a good behaviour bond? That if the perpetrator behaves themselves then they don't go to jail?

What is achieved by sending a first time offender to jail? Generally it will be to turn them into more of a criminal rather than rehabilitating them.

My thought process is that if a magistrate decides that someone's actions were out of character and that generally that person was of good character (as shown by not having a criminal history) and unlikely to offend again then a GBB is appropriate for certain crimes. If the perpetrator doesn't reoffend during their GBB then surely the sentence was appropriate.

 

[I like to watch]

We are well off topic now,but you are not addressing my initial point of a free pass.

You have explained the rationale of not incarcerating everybody,and the use of Section 9's.
But you haven't addressed the original point about it being a "free pass"
If someone breaks your jaw, and get a Section 10, how is this not a free pass?
Or did you actually mean that ,everyone is entitled to a free pass on their first crime(generally speaking)?

 

[Braveheart81]

But you haven't addressed the original point about it being a "free pass"
If someone breaks your jaw, and get a Section 10, how is this not a free pass?
Or did you actually mean that ,everyone is entitled to a free pass on their first crime(generally speaking)?

I only think it is a free pass if only a section 10 is given with no conditions. If a GBB is part of the section 10 then I don't think it is a free pass. You have to not offend again within the timeframe of the GBB.

I don't think that everyone is entitled to a free pass on their first crime but I do think this should be the outcome for most crimes on the lower end of severity for first offenders. I think magistrates are in the position where they can make a fair assessment on whether it is appropriate given all the circumstances.

 

[Pfitzy]

Sorry but can we get back to bashing loigue?

You must have a crystal ball Pfitzy

What can I say? Fish gotta swim, Josh gotta drink

-----------------------
I hate autocorrect ...

 

[JSRF10]

Now its the Queensland Origin teams turn

Bashful Meninga bounced from bar

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/league-news/bashful-meninga-bounced-from-bar-20130619-2oj6b.html

Its great to see the coach set such a good example. Whether he was drunk or not being at a bar at 1am a week before their make or break match isn't great preparation!

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Interesting that Mel was on the radio quoted as saying that he did noting to bring Loig game into disrepute.

Does he think that being safely tucked up in bed at 1am is an act that would bring the mungoball into disrepute?

 

[mxyzptlk]

Could it be that it is US that is blind, do not know what we are talking about? Yeah, I get the common comeback like 'just because mcdonalds is most widely eaten does not make it a good meal' stuff but that is the thing that I find most interesting.

Just came across this thread trying to figure out the appeal of league myself, and am coming from a US perspective, so I'm pretty innocent of any larger rugby/league cultural issues -- because it just doesn't happen in the US (although that's changing).

For one thing, league had something like a 90-year head start when it comes to professionalism. That's 90 years of more money flowing into the sport, money which can be re-flowed into marketing, development programs among younger people, and expanding the presence of the brand. Any organization that has such a head start will benefit from inertia as well as their larger bank account and already-larger customer base.

Maybe the McDonald's comparison isn't as apt; take beer instead (work with me here): The most consumed brands don't tend to be of the best quality -- Budweiser, Bud Light, Coors, Tsingtao, Fosters, etc. A massive shift in the industry took place in the 1980's where two things happened in conjunction to carpet-bomb the bars and colleges with enough product to swamp other brands, no matter how good those other brands were:

1. Massive advertising campaigns that made beer wild and crazy and fun (Spuds McKenzie), and
2. Changing the formula by replacing previous ingredients with rice, carbonation and added salt, which saved money, changed the flavor, but also made the consumer more thirsty.

It all added up to a cheaper product but more sales, and with enough market share (Anheuser-Busch has something like 48% of the US market), you can overcome or buy out upstarts with a superior product but less market share and less capital.

This is what league seems to have in Australia: The game has altered its formula to be as easily consumable by as broad a market base as possible (uncontested scrums, no lineouts, five and a kick, no contest for the ball on the floor, etc.). With it's 90-year head start as a professional entity, it's been able to carpet-bomb different regions with its product to the point that a similar brand/code isn't even recognized (which may be why you didn't realize there was another code until you were older). If as I understand it rugby is still really only a private school game in Australia, that doesn't help, and it's a testament to the game's persistence that it's lasted this long (in the US, sports played primarily in private school hardly ever go pro or gain popularity among public schools -- you don't see fencing in too many public schools).

The persistence of rugby is promising, and it's probably helped by the on- and off-field shenanigans in league (although apparently a large portion of the public dig that stuff), but as long as rugby's in a four-way code-race and doesn't make itself as available to public schools as league does, I can't imagine its popularity ever really growing to the critical mass it would need to displace league as the main (and for some, only) rugby code played in Australia.

 

[mxyzptlk]

Now to my real question about league, and why it gives me the shits:

What's with the grappling and fish-flopping on the ground? I seriously don't really understand it. I'm generally a neophyte to both codes -- it wasn't anywhere on the map where I grew up (in the US), and I wasn't really exposed to it until I lived in Ireland for a few years and met some players. So I've been following rugby for about the last 15 years, and recently tried to take league more seriously than the occasional 'well, I guess this is on.'

One thing I get from the league media hype is how "hard" and "tough" the game is. At first this seemed relegated to the incidental shoulder charge, which to me just looked like a hard tackle without the arms. When the shoulder charge was banned, there was a lot of moaning about how league was becoming soft like that other code, but have they seen some of the hits that go on in rugby? They're easily as hard as a lot of those shoulder charges, and occur far more regularly.

But that just raises another question -- where's the tackling in league? You hardly ever see someone cut a ball-carrier in half, like say Samu Manoa did to Peter O'Mahony a few weeks back in Houston. It's always wrapping up the upper body like an octopus and slowly dragging and swamping the carrier to the floor. It's greco-roman rugby.

But what happens next? The guy on the floor has a tantrum, kicking and flopping like his toy was just taken away. Seriously, someone please tell me what that's meant to signify, because I just don't know. From my perspective, it looks ridiculous. I was also a wrestler in the US, and that kind of flopping is what someone does when they're way too weak to be competing and get thrown to their back in dominating fashion -- it's not good. (Yes, we call them 'fish' too.)

I can understand from a technical perspective why league scrapped lineouts and castrated scrums, but I don't understand why they've done away with tackles and why the flopping on the floor. It just seems ineffective and even a little embarrassing.

I'll give league this: There are some nifty plays run from about 10-20 meters out from the try line. Those can be interesting to watch. But without the contest on the floor for the ball, it doesn't seem like much of a contest.

 

[Sully]

The flopping is meant to give the impression that the tackled player is trying to get up really quickly. In actual fact he's flopping instead,

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Welcome to Gaggerland mxyzptlk.

What an awesome username. That would be worth about 400 points in Scrabble on a triple word score.

For all the bagging I give the Septics and their economic and bland cultural colonisation, I must say that I enjoy reading contributions from USA based Gaggerlanders.

Greco-Roman Rugby. Love the term. I think that I will be using it.

I am slightly torn about fully embracing it because I think there is some sort of contest in Greco-Roman wrestling, at least our own Olympic Greco-Roman Commentary Experts, HG Nelson and Rampaging Roy Slaven, seem to think so.
I'm thinking that WWF Rugby may also be an apt descriptor of fivekick, if we are going down the wrestling path.

WWF is all show, bluff and blunder and fake as anything, contrived marketing and hype, and manufactured "personalities" and personas appealing to the lowest common denominator. There is nothing vaguely athletic or honourable about it in any way shape of form, but it makes the franchise owners a tonne of money.

The flopping is meant to give the impression that the tackled player is trying to get up really quickly. In actual fact he's flopping instead,

Don't forget about the obligatory face scrunch that the flopping fish must receive as the other blokes in the cuddle get to their feet.

 

[terry j]

take beer instead (work with me here)
It all added up to a cheaper product but more sales, and with enough market share (Anheuser-Busch has something like 48% of the US market), you can overcome or buy out upstarts with a superior product but less market share and less capital.

Nice summary BTW, I have almost exactly the same feelings as you on the matter.

The bolded bit is more applicable than you might have thought, seein as how you asked us to 'work with you here'...no work needed, it is spot on.

Oh the howls that went up when the first league player went to union (naturally ONLY after we went professional), 'how dare they steal one of our players!'

I can't help but wonder if THE biggest contributing factor to the current state was unions dinosaur insistence on maintaining amateurism.

If as I understand it rugby is still really only a private school game in Australia, that doesn't help, and it's a testament to the game's persistence that it's lasted this long (in the US, sports played primarily in private school hardly ever go pro or gain popularity among public schools -- you don't see fencing in too many public schools).

One of the enduring traits of the australian psyche is it's cheering for the little bloke, the 'common man' if you will. In a lot of times and places that is a good thing and helps keep us grounded. It does have it's drawbacks tho, esp when it is applied without thinking.

Mediocrity can tend to be favoured, ambition can be knocked out (anyone else get that at school??)

In this particular instance it also serves as another wedge, 'union is played by upper class snobs' being an apt summary.

That to the uneducated leaguie 'the games are not related' (eg, completely unaware that by far the majority of player code swapping was from union to league for monetary reasons, ie no history so probably unaware that league came from union) well then 'league is for the common bloke and union is for the snobby gentry' becomes an argument that resonates very strongly indeed.

The persistence of rugby is promising, and it's probably helped by the on- and off-field shenanigans in league (although apparently a large portion of the public dig that stuff)

It has it's own catchcry believe it or not.

It's called 'Bring back the biff'.

Serious. There are a lot of neanderthals in australia sadly.

 

[terry j]

What's with the grappling and fish-flopping on the ground?

The rules are the same as far as I know in both codes, the tackled player must be released immediately.

It is patently obvious that the tackled player is NOT released immediately in league, so the flopping on the ground is a means of highlighting that I spose.

As sully mentioned, it is more for show than anything.

Funny, I too have always called it the dying fish routine. If it walks like a duck..

It is an interesting exercise to make a guesstimate of how long a player is held down, multiply by the number of tackles a game to get a quick and dirty idea of how much dead time occurs in league every game with the embarrassing spectacle of grown men writhing ineffectually on the ground whilst being man hugged.

I find it humiliating even to watch.

Then they have a scrum...

 

[Hugh Jarse]

terry j, "I find it humiliating even to watch."
Likewise, and why bother to watch when there is such high quality Super Rugby on?

I am struggling to remember the last Fivekick game that I sat down to watch on the TV.

Combine that with the B&I Lions tour games AND <shame on me for saying it> the 6N games - some of them were crackers. Even the Top 14 French rugby games and ABC Shute Shield games are far better athletic contests than Greco-Roman Rugby.

The saddest thing is that all this is locked away behind the Foxtel paywall.

 

[Sully]

It is an interesting exercise to make a guesstimate of how long a player is held down, multiply by the number of tackles a game to get a quick and dirty idea of how much dead time occurs in league.

I wrote a article about it a while ago. It didn't go down well.

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/is-union-really-more-boring-than-league-a-reply/

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

 

[terry j]

I wrote a article about it a while ago. It didn't go down well.

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/is-union-really-more-boring-than-league-a-reply/

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

well, I'll go on the record to say it went down very well indeed out my way.

Dean Ritchie? C'mon, as one eyed a commentator that ever existed. I doubt it could pass his lips any sort of positive comment about union.

I personally don't know if it is true or not, but let's concede there are more tries in leaque. About 50% of them would be from a bomb inside the last twenty?

Hardly riveting.

One of the ways I look at this time stoppage angle is that (again) in both codes as far as I know the rule is the same, the game stops at the first break in play after the siren goes. (?)

In union as we all know the game can go on 'indefinitely' till a stoppage occurs, in practice it is not that rare for it to be a few minutes at least.

League of course stops at the very next tackle, which only emphasises the points you made in your excellent riposte.

That the game is so 'stoppy' is only worsened by how often each tackle occurs after, at most a pass, there is very little flow to the game. The ratio of passes to tackles (or stops if we are honest) would struggle to get above one.

That is not a stat I can give figures on as I can't watch for more than a minute or two

A run from dummy half is not an equivalent to pick and drive either.

 

[mxyzptlk]

What an awesome username. That would be worth about 400 points in Scrabble on a triple word score.

It's the one username that's never taken.

Greco-Roman Rugby. Love the term. I think that I will be using it.

I am slightly torn about fully embracing it because I think there is some sort of contest in Greco-Roman wrestling, at least our own Olympic Greco-Roman Commentary Experts, HG Nelson and Rampaging Roy Slaven, seem to think so.

They're right -- it's damn difficult, and when it hits the ground the competition doesn't stop -- which is a point of difference. I used that term mainly because all the tackle work just seems to be upper-body grappling (unless someone tries to bomb in from behind and knock out some ligaments -- which doesn't happen in greco).

Actually, rugby union has some affinities with freestyle and collegiate wrestling (USARugger would probably know this better than me): When someone tries to clean out a ruck and they wrap up around the head and arm, that's basically the same position for point-scoring front headlock series (they occur more often in freestyle and collegiate because they're often used to counter a leg attack). I've heard league pundits complain about how dangerous those sorts of moves are in rugby, how someone will break a neck, which just shows me how little they know about it -- kids are taught that in wrestling when they're about 6, but they're not allowed to throw until they're older.

I'm thinking that WWF Rugby may also be an apt descriptor of fivekick, if we are going down the wrestling path.

WWF is all show, bluff and blunder and fake as anything, contrived marketing and hype, and manufactured "personalities" and personas appealing to the lowest common denominator. There is nothing vaguely athletic or honourable about it in any way shape of form, but it makes the franchise owners a tonne of money.

Don't forget about the obligatory face scrunch that the flopping fish must receive as the other blokes in the cuddle get to their feet.

I'm not sure if that's more of an insult to league or pro wrasslin', or if either side could tell the difference.

 

[mxyzptlk]

In this particular instance it also serves as another wedge, 'union is played by upper class snobs' being an apt summary.

Is Australia a hold-out for that kind of class division within rugby? I know it was there for years in England, but as I understand it, it's been a while since that was always the hard and fast case -- I've heard mention of how former England captain and former Tina Turner backing vocalist Lawrence Dallaglio came from fairly humble backgrounds, as did Danny Cipriani. Go west to Wales and Ireland (at least outside of Dublin), and it's seen as more of a working-class sport.

It has it's own catchcry believe it or not.

It's called 'Bring back the biff'.

Serious. There are a lot of neanderthals in australia sadly.

I've been hearing that. From a relatively naive outsiders position, it sounds like they want to have an organized gang fight with occasional passes and tries scored.

I have relatives in Australia, and one of my best friends from Ireland now lives in Melbourne, so I'll go easy on calling anyone neanderthals. But the only time I was ever sucker-punched from behind was by an Aussie, and from now on I'm calling that guy "Paul Gallen."

 

[mxyzptlk]

I wrote a article about it a while ago. It didn't go down well.

Hey, that article is one of the things that sparked me to have a second look at league, because I just didn't understand the appeal. I still watch a game now and then, but almost like an anthropologist or a naturalist would -- "Now what is this ritual behavior." Imagine the game being narrated by David Attenborough, and it takes on a whole new dimension.