School sporting scholarships/recruitment

[TheKing]

I think the end result is that the private schools are a business, and rugby success is good for business in the sense that the canteens make money, and the support groups make money. Winning the premiership gets increased numbers of kids playing, old boys at the game, and ultimately more money in the school.

It'd be interesting to find out how relative Rugby success is to enrolments each year.

Like the boosting analogy I made before, I can see the days when schoolboy rugby gets to the point where it's like the NCAA tournaments in the US, where schools compete in luring young players to play on their teams, forcing them to maintain a high Grade Point Average to play for the school, banning meetings with agents and professional coaches until they finish the school year, etc etc etc etc. Games like last years 'Grand Final' between Nudgee and BGS attracted a crowd of maybe 7000 people, and the atmosphere was like something out a sports movie. I expect Saturday's crowd at TSS v Nudgee be of a similar number.

How long will it be until one school builds a 10,000 seat stadium and signs over the TV rights for the competition to Fox Sports, or channel 10, or any other network looking for a new market to broadcast?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

They're not taxed like a business.....

 

[Vegas]

I have two brothers-in-law who attended a GPS School in Brisbane. Both played First XV for their school. One brother-in-law was in a team that won the First XV premiership, the other was in a team that lost two games and finished around third.

Over the last 20 years I have witnessed no remarkable difference in the outcomes during post school life for these guys. There was definitely no door that magically opened for one and not the other. Their career and personal achievements since school were all a result of the hard work and effort they put in to those particular areas and not as a result of a rugby match score.

Gees, neither of them even reminisce. They both probably learned some great life lessons playing school rugby but neither would say that was due to the end result on a premiership table.

Great post DS - these "scholarship " boys who are there for a very mercenary tilt at perceived glory for the school, will have no attachment to, investment in, nor benefit from the school. A big investment by the schools in boys who will prove to give very little investment back the other way.

We need a competition with boys who choose to be at the schools for the right reasons, not one where the schools chose the boys they want for misguided reasons and narrow sighted infatuations.

I feel really sorry for the kids and parents in the 1st XVs who have been full fee paying since day 1, and are now wondering why they don't get a break in the shape of fee relief, or if they hadn't enrolled their son earlier, they would be getting the scholarships now. Hopefully the realize that their boys are far more enriched, and their experiences far more sustainable, by virtue of their time at, and engagement with, their schools.

 

[guildford]

That story is the worst I have heard.
Frankly, since the kid seemingly gets no academic benefit from being at the school, I can't even see what's in it for him.
I have found that the obsession with winning school premierships is inverse to what a person did in their own playing days.
I am, therefore, very surprised that a former Wallaby old boy would step in at the last minute where the benefit to the kid is hard to see.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Totally agree with the condemnation of 'player X ' and more so the school involved, however they have a long history of similar moves across all sports notably the central Qld state champion runner who 2 weeks later rocked up to win the GPS XC title. Having some exposure to the headmasters association I think there is no true agreement and any such suggestion is clearly removed for reality. But i digress.
Agree with inside shoulders assesment except for one major issue. The drive for GPS premiership glory imo is by high achieving players rather than the vast majority who played for fun and enjoyment. This is particularly true at a number of schools at present. The reasons? in one case clearly does not want his son to be punished as he was when at school, and the others reflect some strange homage to their 'rugby breeding ground'. The vast majority of normal thinking ex players of varying ability imo like to see good rugby, and from time to time 'their' school have a win or two. The entire arms race is completely out of hand and I believe for the vast majority entirely unacceptable. My thoughts only

 

[fairplay]

Totally agree with the condemnation of 'player X ' and more so the school involved, however they have a long history of similar moves across all sports notably the central Qld state champion runner who 2 weeks later rocked up to win the GPS XC title. Having some exposure to the headmasters association I think there is no true agreement and any such suggestion is clearly removed for reality. But i digress.
Agree with inside shoulders assesment except for one major issue. The drive for GPS premiership glory imo is by high achieving players rather than the vast majority who played for fun and enjoyment. This is particularly true at a number of schools at present. The reasons? in one case clearly does not want his son to be punished as he was when at school, and the others reflect some strange homage to their 'rugby breeding ground'. The vast majority of normal thinking ex players of varying ability imo like to see good rugby, and from time to time 'their' school have a win or two. The entire arms race is completely out of hand and I believe for the vast majority entirely unacceptable. My thoughts only

"Totally agree with the condemnation of 'player x' "

In the words of our American friends "don't hate the player, hate the game"

I'm sure that's what you meant, but I think we should all be careful when critizing Scholarship/ recruitment etc ... that the way articles are worded focuses on the school/program rather the student.

They are just boys, and its the gentlemanly thing to do.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

.../...snip.../.. One assumes that most of his friends and social group are at his formers school.

What benefit does this boy receive from spending ONE TERM at ACGS?

Shame, shame, shame!

Was it the TV show Summer Heights High where the rich indulged Private School kid Ja'mai went to the Summer Heights High (Public School) for a term?

Art imitating life in reverse.

 

[TheKing]

Totally agree with the condemnation of 'player X ' and more so the school involved

I think a condemnation of the player himself is taking it a bit far, how was he meant to refuse the opportunity to experience life at a GPS School for free? even if there was no benefit academically he is still awarded the opportunity to be a part of the Old Boy network which may help him later in life.

And a few posters previously have made comments like "his friends are all still at one school while he has left" isn't quite as bad as it sounds. He hasn't moved homes, and he might have quite a few boys who he has played footy with all his life for Queensland at Churchie in 2013 (very few of them went to Churchie in 2012)

I'm not saying that the School has done the wrong thing by letting him play, they might not even be aware of the situation.

I'm definitely not saying the player has done the wrong thing, because he does stand to gain a benefit, though not quite so much as the School does though.

I will say that the booster has done the wrong thing. But only to an extent - aren't his actions essentially a sporting scholarship with the aim of allowing a boy access to an education he couldn't afford without financial aid? If the booster had gotten the boy in at the start of the academic year I wouldn't even have a problem with it, as the boy would have been able to significantly boost his future prospects by riding on the academic successes of his fellow students (can be a positive or a negative feature of the queensland system depending on your outlook)

Personal criticisms of the boy I believe are pushing the boundaries too far. He cannot be blamed for being good at footy and having someone volunteer to pay his way through the last few weeks of his education.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Good to see some QLD on this thread. It was getting a little incestuous with our bleating about certain AAGPS schools.

Is there anyone that would care to comment on how things are in Victoria, WA or the ACT?

A snout has said that one of the APS Rugby Schools (AAGPS equivalent) schools has so many boys on scholarship that many schools simply forfeit their 1st XV games against that school.

Like many have said, concentration all the talent in one association, or one school, may be awesome for that School or School association come representative season, but this does diddy squat for growth and expansion of the game.

Rugby needs a wider base pyramid of players rather than a more concentrated grouping of players in an already saturated environment.

 

[Quick Hands]

I, how was he meant to refuse the opportunity to experience life at a GPS School for free? even if there was no benefit academically he is still awarded the opportunity to be a part of the Old Boy network which may help him later in life.

I'm not saying that the School has done the wrong thing by letting him play, they might not even be aware of the situation.

I'm definitely not saying the player has done the wrong thing, because he does stand to gain a benefit, though not quite so much as the School does though.

I will say that the booster has done the wrong thing. But only to an extent - aren't his actions essentially a sporting scholarship with the aim of allowing a boy access to an education he couldn't afford without financial aid?
quote]
.

With respect, we're going to have to agree to disagree about some of your points.

Is spending 10 weeks at a GPS school going to be a life changing experience for this boy? Will he really be part of the old boy network after 10 weeks.? I'd suggest no for both questions - he'll barely get to know anyone outside the rugby team.

How could the school not be aware of the situation? A boy starts in Term 3 of Year 12 and no-one at the school thinks anything of it?

The boy has done nothing wrong is correct. However, the school and the person who paid the fees aren't really doing the boy or themselves any favours. Essentially he's a hired gun, brought in to help a school with which he has no connection win rugby matches. He may not realise it, but he's being used

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Agree with inside shoulders assesment except for one major issue. The drive for GPS premiership glory imo is by high achieving players rather than the vast majority who played for fun and enjoyment. This is particularly true at a number of schools at present.

That is the opposite of my experience.

 

[fairplay]

"Righto punters and supporters it's Thursday. Time for some intel and some ins and outs.

ACGS - the new recruit that has caused so much hooha on here - will play against BBC"

Posted by Seaeagles in the QLD GPS thread.

OK......let me preface my comment by saying I am a BBC old boy. Also this not an attack on any student/students/student body.


But the unsportsmanlike practices of "Nudgee, Churchie, and TSS" regarding sporting recruitment have transformed the entire QLD GPS experience.

Sure its always gone on to some extent( in my day it was more about repeats).....but these three schools have taken it to new levels in the last decade or so and are dragging other schools along. If other schools don't jump on the band wagon the QLD GPS sporting system will end up like the confusing mess that is the NSW AGPS comp (no offense intended).

There is no honor in these kind of titles..... and call me old fashioned but I always thought that teaching young men the "real" values ........"honor, integrity, loyalty, and fraternity" were the founding principles and what differentiated our system from others.

Not win at all costs....

Old boys...hang your heads in shame

 

[Taipan168]

"Righto punters and supporters it's Thursday. Time for some intel and some ins and outs.

ACGS - the new recruit that has caused so much hooha on here - will play against BBC"

Posted by Seaeagles in the QLD GPS thread.

OK..let me preface my comment by saying I am a BBC old boy. Also this not an attack on any student/students/student body.


But the unsportsmanlike practices of "Nudgee, Churchie, and TSS" regarding sporting recruitment have transformed the entire QLD GPS experience.

Sure its always gone on to some extent( in my day it was more about repeats)...but these three schools have taken it to new levels in the last decade or so and are dragging other schools along. If other schools don't jump on the band wagon the QLD GPS sporting system will end up like the confusing mess that is the NSW AGPS comp (no offense intended).

There is no honor in these kind of titles... and call me old fashioned but I always thought that teaching young men the "real" values ...."honor, integrity, loyalty, and fraternity" were the founding principles and what differentiated our system from others.

Not win at all costs..

Old boys.hang your heads in shame

How many in the BBC First XV are on scholarships/bursaries.

I hear 10 will be returning next year.

 

[TheKing]

With respect, we're going to have to agree to disagree about some of your points.

Is spending 10 weeks at a GPS school going to be a life changing experience for this boy? Will he really be part of the old boy network after 10 weeks.? I'd suggest no for both questions - he'll barely get to know anyone outside the rugby team...

However, the school and the person who paid the fees aren't really doing the boy or themselves any favours. Essentially he's a hired gun, brought in to help a school with which he has no connection win rugby matches. He may not realise it, but he's being used

The thing about hired guns is I assume they are well paid for the work they do.

Let me clarify

Will he really be a part of the old boy network? absolutely.

Will 10 weeks at a GPS school be a life changing experience? Maybe. And for the following reason.

He might not meet many students at his new school in his brief time, but he will be afforded the opportunity to get the same newsletters, go to the same re-unions and get the same business contacts and subsequent opportunities the other members Old Boy association get. He might not have known the boys, but I'm sure they'll have known him by the time he finishes. If he is, for example, in a position with a 50/50 chance of getting a job or a promotion, being able to claim an X education and those schoolboy contacts as opposed to a Y education may tip the odds in his favour.

I admit that the benefits for him are significantly less than the benefits posed to the school, but I felt like I needed to point out that he's certainly at no disadvantage moving schools, and that there may even be some benefits in the long term.

How many in the BBC First XV are on scholarships/bursaries.

I hear 10 will be returning next year.

10 as in our league friend, or 10 as in the big fellow?

 

[Taipan168]

The thing about hired guns is I assume they are well paid for the work they do.






10 as in our league friend, or 10 as in the big fellow?

Ten players in the current First XV

 

[fairplay]

How many in the BBC First XV are on scholarships/bursaries.

I hear 10 will be returning next year.

Indeed, not disputing, I don't know. It may in fact be more. But I do know that BBC, or GT, or BGS, TGS..et al aren't the schools that f##ked the system up

They are just following the old "if you cant beat them join them" rule.

And now they are starting to pull level...a school like ("ACGS reportedly") is prepared ("reportedly") to sink even lower by bringing in mid year ring-in's.

Its wrong...its wrong...its wrong

 

[TheKing]

Ten players in the current First XV

My mistake. Thought you were referring to a flyhalf

 

[Galloper]

I think a condemnation of the player himself is taking it a bit far, how was he meant to refuse the opportunity to experience life at a GPS School for free? even if there was no benefit academically he is still awarded the opportunity to be a part of the Old Boy network which may help him later in life.

I'd be curious to see the comments of others on here about the present-day significance of the "Old Boy network".

I'm almost 50 and I've been running my own business, in one of the professions, for over 20 years. I can honestly say that I can't remember making a single employment decision over that period based on the applicant's schooling.

In fact, when employing a professional, I've usually been far more impressed by someone who has achieved success from a position of disadvantage than a "silver spooner" with similar grades, experience etc., and I'm confident that most employers feel the same way.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a proud Old Boy of the school I attended and I love the fact that my son is now excelling there, but I think that the days of the old school tie opening doors in business are just about over, if they're not over already - I believe that we're now living in a real meritocracy and I think that's a good thing.

 

[I like to watch]

I'd be curious to see the comments of others on here about the present-day significance of the "Old Boy network".

I'm almost 50 and I've been running my own business, in one of the professions, for over 20 years. I can honestly say that I can't remember making a single employment decision over that period based on the applicant's schooling.

In fact, when employing a professional, I've usually been far more impressed by someone who has achieved success from a position of disadvantage than a "silver spooner" with similar grades, experience etc., and I'm confident that most employers feel the same way.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a proud Old Boy of the school I attended and I love the fact that my son is now excelling there, but I think that the days of the old school tie opening doors in business are just about over, if they're not over already - I believe that we're now living in a real meritocracy and I think that's a good thing.

In my experience, it's not actually the School tie, it's more the fact that your best mates dad is in a position to give you a leg up.Rather than someone you have never met, giving you a preference based on the School you attended.

 

[Vegas]

Indeed, not disputing, I don't know. It may in fact be more. But I do know that BBC, or GT, or BGS, TGS..et al aren't the schools that f##ked the system up

They are just following the old "if you cant beat them join them" rule.

And now they are starting to pull level.a school like ("ACGS reportedly") is prepared ("reportedly") to sink even lower by bringing in mid year ring-in's.

Its wrong.its wrong.its wrong

Agree Fairplay - " we do it because they do it " is a cop out, but a difficult dilemma for the schools to face in any event.
Not only the Old Boys, but the headmasters and the school boards should hang their heads - only they can change it, and they are under the misguided opinion that this is enhancing their reputations, rather than the fact that it is actually ripping apart the very foundations upon which those reputations are based.

 

[Vegas]

Hate to d

The thing about hired guns is I assume they are well paid for the work they do.

Let me clarify

Will he really be a part of the old boy network? absolutely.

Will 10 weeks at a GPS school be a life changing experience? Maybe. And for the following reason.

He might not meet many students at his new school in his brief time, but he will be afforded the opportunity to get the same newsletters, go to the same re-unions and get the same business contacts and subsequent opportunities the other members Old Boy association get. He might not have known the boys, but I'm sure they'll have known him by the time he finishes. If he is, for example, in a position with a 50/50 chance of getting a job or a promotion, being able to claim an X education and those schoolboy contacts as opposed to a Y education may tip the odds in his favour.

I admit that the benefits for him are significantly less than the benefits posed to the school, but I felt like I needed to point out that he's certainly at no disadvantage moving schools, and that there may even be some benefits in the long term.




10 as in our league friend, or 10 as in the big fellow?

Hate to disagree King, but i fear the player will be out the door as quickly as he arrived - its happened before at Churchie, Nudgee and TSS. And if Churchie do win the premiership this year, and this boy may be part of that, the perceived benefit of that win will be far outwieghed by the damage that their position on sporting scholarships is currently doing them. I know of 2 families - one an old boy - who have decided to send their boys to other schools ( one BGS, the other BBC ) simply because they are uncomfortable with what is going on at East Brisbane at the moment.