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The success of League players in Rugby Union

Did/do you wish for Rugby League converts to Union, to fail in our code?


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Tom Ando

Fred Wood (13)
Following Benji Marshall's announcement that he would be leaving the Blues and Super Rugby to go back to Rugby League, comments were made on Monday Night with Matty Johns, where Gordon Tallis made the comments that "Rugby want you there for the headlines, but they actually want you to fail I believe; because they want their code to look better you know?" "Like I watched Wendall Sailor, one of the most damaging ball runners; they never passed him the ball! So they want you come there but they don't want you to be successful". In response to Nathan Hindmarsh's question about Israel Folau, Tallis replies, "That's all they've got"

Further comments were made from Matty Johns about Marshall saying "I've watched Benji come off the bench, and he's getting 5 minutes here, 10 minutes there, he is hardly getting enough time to prove himself, so-"

Does Rugby Union want League players to fail in our code to make it look like we are a tougher, more complex sport that the average league star can't handle, or was the likes of Sailor and Marshall hard done by? Lastly, does Rugby League just have a chip on their shoulder? Personally I'm sick of the chip on the Rugby League's shoulder about everything to do with Union. I'm glad when League comes up in conversation on Fox, on The Rugby Club, FSN or pre/post game, we aren't afraid to use the other codes NAME, let alone discuss openly about converts like Izzy Folau and their background. Watch any Footy Show on Channel 9, and were are referred to like a disease ("The other code").

What are you guys thoughts? Do you guys hope that Sam Burgess fails. Did you hope Izzy failed when he first came over?
 

terry j

Ron Walden (29)
I have noticed (marto for example) that if one of 'our' commentators mention league it is without any backhanders and usually complimentary. At least they give the impression that they can evaluate it without an agenda.

I think I'm easy either way, they make it and do well then we benefit and potentially have outsiders curious enough to take a look, they don't make it then so what?

Just on benji, I remember when he came over and I watched his little telecast and came away impressed by him being quite a decent guy.

His comments about his rugby foray have done little to change that opinion, did not go blaming anyone else, just took it on the chin and fessed that he found out he could not play the game.

I have a lot of admiration for him.
 

wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
I suppose as an Australian rugby supporter who wants us to beat England more than anything else, I would not be all that unhappy if Burgess is a flop. That feeling has nothing at all with the fact that he has a loig background, it is simply because I want us to beat the Poms.

Ditto for every other rugby country that we play, I want us to beat them, don't care much who plays for them, what their background is, I still want us to beat them just as much whoever their players are.


BTW, the name is Gorden Tallis. He has a chip on his shoulder that is world class.
 
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Tom Ando

Fred Wood (13)
I suppose as an Australian rugby supporter who wants us to beat England more than anything else, I would not be all that unhappy if Burgess is a flop. That feeling has nothing at all with the fact that he has a loig background, it is simply because I want us to beat the Poms.

Ditto for every other rugby country that we play, I want us to beat them, don't care much who plays for them, what their background is, I still want us to beat them just as much whoever their players are.


BTW, the name is Gorden Tallis. He has a chip on his shoulder that is world class.


So do you think because of Tallis'rank within Rugby League, that his opinion has greater weight in debate? Does that mean you think he's right? I'm just interested to hear.
 

ACT Crusader

Jim Lenehan (48)
I remember almost 20 years ago watching the clash of the codes between Wigan and Bath. I loved it, they played a game of league and a game of union. The relative sides won their own sport games by some margin, but one thing I do recall is how the union guys struggled with league.

On the other hand, Wigan didn't do to bad in the union game albeit they had Inga the winger in their team who had switched to league a couple of years prior.

The 2nd codes clash was a bit different when they played one match and a half of each code. It was league powerhouse St Helens and union team from Sale. If ever a game was a genuine tale of 2 halves, this was it. Even though I remember it being a bit of a scrappy sort of game allround, the league team never scored when it was union rules and likewise the league team never scored when it was union rules. Final score 41-39 to Sale.

It doesn't mean much in what is a false debate that often league commentators (eg Elias, Tallis, Vautin) try to generate, this us versus them siege mentality. It's two different games - some try to make the switch (both ways) and succeed and some don't.

For every Folau, Brad Thorn and Jason Robinson, there is a host of others that couldn't cut it in the game played in heaven.
 

wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
So do you think because of Tallis'rank within Rugby League, that his opinion has greater weight in debate? Does that mean you think he's right? I'm just interested to hear.


Why would Tallis' rank within rugby league affect my opinion of his opinion?


As I said, he has a world-class chip on his shoulder. He has a huge bee in his bonnet. Not sure how many other cliches I can use.


I would not bother reading anything he said, other than to comment on posts here that quote him.
 

It is what it is

John Solomon (38)
I like to see league converts succeed in rugby.
A successful conversion delivers a much needed boost in press attention and profile for our game, usually along with benefits for the team they play for both on and off the field.
Yes the skill sets are different and vary according to position but accountability for judging a player's ability to convert comes down to the club that has signed them and the coach who coaches them.
 

wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
According to the Terrorgraph, Benji's foray in real rugby has cost him something like a couple of mill. Probably an exaggeration, but he has certainly lost some financial skin.


I am still struggling to understand why he did it. He grew up in New Zealand, he must have watched a fair bit of rugby over the years, surely he had worked out whether or not his strengths and weaknesses would be a good, or bad fit, for the 15-a-side game?


I have not watched enough loig to know, one way or the other. But he has, and he obviously made what turned out to be a really bad decision. I don't blame the coach, I blame the player, and he is the one who has suffered the ignominy, and the financial penalty. Frankly, in terms of the question raised by this thread, I feel sorry for the guy. He comes across as being pretty level-headed in most respects. Obviously, however, not in terms of understanding his own abilities.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
I like to see league converts succeed in rugby.
A successful conversion delivers a much needed boost in press attention and profile for our game, usually along with benefits for the team they play for both on and off the field.
Yes the skill sets are different and vary according to position but accountability for judging a player's ability to convert comes down to the club that has signed them and the coach who coaches them.


Doesn't it depend on the unit signing?

There are plenty of Aus Schoolboy standard units who get better offers to play NRL, some of them? Sure

Athletic outside backs with the right attitude? Sure

Big Athletic "fringe forwards" (ie 12s like SBW) Sure

30 yro touch footballers like Marshall, nah
 

terry j

Ron Walden (29)
According to the Terrorgraph, Benji's foray in real rugby has cost him something like a couple of mill. Probably an exaggeration, but he has certainly lost some financial skin.

hmm, that's odd. just happened to catch Paul Kent (?) last night and if I did not get the wrong end of the stick, his point seemed to be that because the blues released him he was in effect paid out for his contract.

Unless I misunderstood him (tho I can hardly see benji being paid out for what he did)
 

Tom Ando

Fred Wood (13)
I think its easy to get dragged into the debate the Tallis highlights though. As a long time union supporter growing up in a place where the Union club had a shit reputation and league was flourishing, I tended to have a chip on my shoulder about league. I suppose my mentality these days about wanting union to outshine league, particularly in NSW, was moulded from such experiences as a youngster, where I was the only one in my year at primary school that played union, and was interested in it. So in terms of being able to develop our own talent without having to buy league players to 'save our ass' annoys me. I will be honest I was skeptical of Izzy's arrival in Union, because I thought it was going to be another Timana Tahu scenario.

I just didn't like the way Tallis portrayed Union, as a code aiming to look better by picking up and dropping 'league stars' to "look" better. Whilst you and I both agree that its just BS and doesn't make any sense financially anyway, mungos near and far believe that shit. I believe ultimately thats why there is a lack of interest in our code by the masses. They just aren't willing to give it a go because they are in this mindset, which is fed by the likes of Tallis.
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
It's an odd comments because there has been a number of quality converts who have had great success. Failures seem to be the minority, not the majority.

The Reds had Sailor who showed his quality at times despite struggling to adjust to the nuances. They also recently have had Chambers, McLinden and Shicofske who were all very good players for us. Had they stuck around longer in Chambers case or some across earlier in the latter cases they could have all potentially been Wallabies.

The Tahs had Rogers, Tuqiri and Izzy who have all been highly successful, whilst Blacklock and Tahu were failures. Tahu would be the only one to be considered a massive flop simply due to the fanfare and cost associated with him.

Saffy at the Rebels really wasn't much chop, primarily due to injuries limiting his performances, yet as a former Aus Schoolboy, he's hardly a convert anyway.

Tomane has been great at the Brumbies and Peter Ryan was great in their early years.

Brad Thorn did the hard yards early and has arguably been a greater success in rugby than he ever was in league.

People don't deathride the player's success. It's just when they come across on a big pay day with large fanfare there is scepticism about how quickly they will hit the ground running and therefore if they are worth the money. If a guy's on a 3 year deal and he's performing well below that for the first year that's a big percentage of the contract duration.
 

Phil

Chris McKivat (8)
I think its easy to get dragged into the debate the Tallis highlights though. As a long time union supporter growing up in a place where the Union club had a shit reputation and league was flourishing, I tended to have a chip on my shoulder about league. I suppose my mentality these days about wanting union to outshine league, particularly in NSW, was moulded from such experiences as a youngster, where I was the only one in my year at primary school that played union, and was interested in it. So in terms of being able to develop our own talent without having to buy league players to 'save our ass' annoys me. I will be honest I was skeptical of Izzy's arrival in Union, because I thought it was going to be another Timana Tahu scenario.

I just didn't like the way Tallis portrayed Union, as a code aiming to look better by picking up and dropping 'league stars' to "look" better. Whilst you and I both agree that its just BS and doesn't make any sense financially anyway, mungos near and far believe that shit. I believe ultimately thats why there is a lack of interest in our code by the masses. They just aren't willing to give it a go because they are in this mindset, which is fed by the likes of Tallis.
Nobody should take any notice of anything Tallis says.He could hardly string 2 words together in his playing days,so it has always amazed me how he is still being paid as a "commentator".
Having said that,with his style of play,he may have been quite a good convert himself in the Brad Thorn mode.With a hell of a lot less class,though!
 
T

Tip

Guest
I just didn't like the way Tallis portrayed Union, as a code aiming to look better by picking up and dropping 'league stars' to "look" better. Whilst you and I both agree that its just BS and doesn't make any sense financially anyway, mungos near and far believe that shit. I believe ultimately thats why there is a lack of interest in our code by the masses. They just aren't willing to give it a go because they are in this mindset, which is fed by the likes of Tallis.
Sadly that mindset is pretty much universal throughout League. League players have it hammered into them at a young age that Union is for the "Silvertails" & "rich kids" whilst real men play League; 'the greatest game of all".

I was at an all-boy College in Brisbane which (naturally) was made up of about 90% country lads who follow League. A huuuuge majority admitted they hadn't watched a Rugby game since '03 when they jumped on the RWC bandwagon. League wasn't played as an Inter-College sport, so they had to suck it up and play Union.

Once they played Union, they understood the game and quite a few of them enjoyed Union more - more 1on1 opportunities, more space to play in, not restricted to play on 1 side of the park etc etc.
The following year (2011) I had 4 of these lads take up Season membership with the Reds with me and I daresay they appreciated my general introduction when we won the Super Rugby title.

In reality, I think the Union rules are actually pretty simple.

I explained it to a mate like this(Bronco's season member for as long as he may live)
Rugby is exactly like League, except the ball is always in contest. A ruck is a contest for the ball etc.

1) Dont touch the ball off your feet / play the ball on the ground.
2) Enter a ruck from behind the last persons feet.
3) Stay on your feet

Otherwise it's the same as RL.

I know I've rambled a little off topic here but oh wellz I'm not backspacing all this crap I've put 3 minutes of thought into
 

thierry dusautoir

Alan Cameron (40)
League is a sport where everyone has to essentially the exact same role, which is to make metres. The only exception to this rule the halves and hooker, but realistically these days most league sides play with a combination of one playmaker and a facilitator. Look at the the rabbitohs as an example, Reynolds playmakes and Sutton will throw a pass if someone runs the line for him or kick if reynolds is out of action.
Hence league favouring people usually struggle with the concept of more specialist players in union. It's hard for them to see that a blindside winger has a different role to the openside winger, that the backrowers all play different parts. It's different to their sport where everyone's roles differ only slightly. So they struggle to understand that as Benji even admits that the technical aspect of the game was where he was struggling, and at flyhalf the Blues could not afford to have him play major roles.
I do believe the Blues failed Benji in someways as they did not build a team around him to facilitate his shortcomings and expected him to simply buck up and buck out. It has also been mentioned before that NZ coaches do not coach the technical side of the game in extreme detail. So maybe the tutelage Benji was getting was not the kind he needed.
 

GunnerDownUnder

Jim Clark (26)
Benji didnt give it long enough in Union.
I think he played super 15 too early - needed a season in ITM cup and possibly a stint in Japan or Europe before S15.

Best player I ever played against was Alan Tait, in my opinion best cross-code player of the lot along with Gibbs and Quinnell
 

southsider

Arch Winning (36)
Think Tallis turns a blind eye to the fact that a decent chunk of rugby league talent are either union juniors or at least dual-coders growing up,

Also don't understand why players like Rogers and Tomane are considered league converts, both played union as their primary sport in high school, I would consider them union players who converted to league then came back to union
 

Bardon

Peter Fenwicke (45)
If RU really wanted RL converts to fail to make our game look better surely the various unions in on this fiendish conspiracy would be targeting less talented and cheaper RL converts. Spending such vasts amounts of money on very talented sports men from another code only to hope they fail is a ludicrous hypothesis.

As for fans I personally don't care all that much about League converts as the game is an irrelevance in Ireland. I can only name some of the English RL teams because it's inevitable you'll hear them being mentioned on Sky sports news when you're watching the news in brief sections. Then for the Aus teams I only know some names due to them being mentioned on here.

These converts to me are more of a curiosity. They're guys I don't know from Adam until they start getting linked to English, Aus or NZ rugby teams. Then when they appear on my radar I'm interested to see how they go in our game.

They're people I admire as to reach the pinnacle of one sport and then gamble that to have a go at another sport takes some balls. I wish them the best in our great sport and however long they last I hope they enjoyed the experience.
 
T

Tip

Guest
Think Tallis turns a blind eye to the fact that a decent chunk of rugby league talent are either union juniors or at least dual-coders growing up,

Also don't understand why players like Rogers and Tomane are considered league converts, both played union as their primary sport in high school, I would consider them union players who converted to league then came back to union
Shhhhhh we don't want to spoil Tallis' party. After all, it's pretty clear that Cooper Cronk & Wally Lewis never played Union for Australian Schoolboys.
 
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