Sydney Subbies 2022

[Ref_Ted]

So what your saying is that a subbies player in 1st grade playing at 3:15pm, might get pulled from their game to sit on the bench for 4th grade in premier at 9am. No thanks.

Premier rugby has a purpose, subbies has a different purpose.

Not at all. Think rosters not teams. They need 161 players on a roster to compete, make it 180+ if need be. I would guess that a couple of clubs have well over 200+ on their roster. If you limit the roster for a club, what happens to the ones who don't make the cut?
First they would seek another premiership club.
Second they would play subbies.

I get that subbies has a purpose for the weekend warriors or those who cannot commit to a premiership program. However, for aspirational players who don't make a premiership roster they should play in subbies rather than non-championship friendlies between the high roster premiership clubs.

 

[Ref_Ted]

So what your saying is that a subbies player in 1st grade playing at 3:15pm, might get pulled from their game to sit on the bench for 4th grade in premier at 9am.

In this scenario the premiership club would lose a player for the season and 'may' seek a replacement. This player would then commit to being on the roster and join the premiership program.
Also keep in mind the new standards for Sydney premiership clubs and the semi-professional programs being implemented. The idea is to raise the level of all grades not just Shute Shield.

 

[Pfitzy]

First they would seek another premiership club.
Second they would play subbies.

Third, they don't play at all.

It is a tricky environment at the moment with seasons being cancelled due to COVID, but other factors are going to play an even bigger part in 2022 IMHO, particularly if travel opens back up.

I've been going flat out as a club administrator and part time player and refereee and it is starting to wear me down. There are other things I want to do on weekends, quite frankly, and I'm not getting any younger. Young guys have so many more options now and rugby isn't the core social function for many people, unlike yesteryear where guys my age and older used it as their main outlet.

 

[Pfitzy]

Telling clubs they can only have X players is a bit of a minefield. I know guys living around the corner from me in NW Sydney who play for Mosman. They've got 6 Grades, 3 Colts sides, and what I'm told is a great social scene. If someone wants to pay hundreds more than our club in fees to have a 40 minute chuckle in Halligan Cup for Mosman 6s, well I'm not left with much to offer them.

The longer term issue with players gravitating to bigger clubs: other clubs collapse.

In the distant future, Subbies becomes 2-3 Divisions with a couple of clubs dominating and the others hanging on for the odd premiership as they scrabble for players.

 

[Ref_Ted]

Telling clubs they can only have X players is a bit of a minefield. I know guys living around the corner from me in NW Sydney who play for Mosman. They've got 6 Grades, 3 Colts sides, and what I'm told is a great social scene. If someone wants to pay hundreds more than our club in fees to have a 40 minute chuckle in Halligan Cup for Mosman 6s, well I'm not left with much to offer them.

The longer term issue with players gravitating to bigger clubs: other clubs collapse.

In the distant future, Subbies becomes 2-3 Divisions with a couple of clubs dominating and the others hanging on for the odd premiership as they scrabble for players.

I wouldn't put a cap on any Subbies club. More freedom to them. The natural limiting factor is desire to play a game versus the number of games available.
Yes, not play at all is likely. Some players gravitate to certain (premiership) clubs purely on the basis of the program they offer. Premiership clubs should be full of aspiration players. If you limit the roster, the majority will find a home at another club or player subbies. For many premiership clubs 4th grade in particular is full of players who don't wish to go up to 3rd's or 2nd's should be playing subbies. Combine that with the premiership clubs who have 5th & 6th grades plus Colts 4 & 5.
(BTW more power to the old blokes refereeing. I enjoy it immensely though could do with less 7s tournaments where I am the only ref that turns up).

 

[Pfitzy]

Realistically, Premier Rugby should become our third tier - split off their top 25 seniors and 25 Colts to a regional/national competition, then the rest go into Subbies-level competition.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Realistically, Premier Rugby should become our third tier - split off their top 25 seniors and 25 Colts to a regional/national competition, then the rest go into Subbies-level competition.

Pretty much this. But good luck on getting them to pull their heads out of their arses in order to achieve that.

 

[Pfitzy]

Pretty much this. But good luck on getting them to pull their heads out of their arses in order to achieve that.

I do wonder - if TV rights money was on the table - what it would take to make this happen i.e. split the top players into a pro comp and shift the rest into Premier Grade Subbies.

There's always a price that people will break at, and even at $400ish a pop, lower grade players aren't going to do much more than cover your insurance.

The big issue of course is figuring out where the financial cutoff is, due to Subbies being amateur.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I do wonder - if TV rights money was on the table - what it would take to make this happen i.e. split the top players into a pro comp and shift the rest into Premier Grade Subbies.

There's always a price that people will break at, and even at $400ish a pop, lower grade players aren't going to do much more than cover your insurance.

The big issue of course is figuring out where the financial cutoff is, due to Subbies being amateur.

Doubtful seeing as contrary to what many wish to believe the Shute Shield never rated all that well. Often sitting around the 10k mark.

 

[Pfitzy]

No doubt the value of it was talked up But if you got the top clubs from Brisbane, Sydney, and Canberra as a start, it might be a more valuable product.

 

[Footyhead#2]

A tangent topic thought. There was talk last year in Shute Shield regarding the roster size in certain Sydney premiership clubs. Humble opinion would suggest a roster cap for premiership clubs would benefit both the Sydney Premiership and Subbies.
4x Grade teams (scrap 5th) & 3x Colts teams each with 23 registered players is a max of 161 on the Roster for a season. Season injuries could be replaced by Subbies players.
Would this not trickle down to the benefit of Subbies?

Would never work. Do you really think that a Subbies club would send their best players up to Shute clubs?? They'll be sending the annoying 2nd Grade 5/8 who can't tackle and has terrible chat.

 

[dru]

Realistically, Premier Rugby should become our third tier - split off their top 25 seniors and 25 Colts to a regional/national competition, then the rest go into Subbies-level competition.

This I like.

 

[Ref_Ted]

I don't know of a national competition that has been successfully implemented without a strong local (club) competition being in place. With NRL & AFL they were almost forced into national comps as it was the only option left to grow. Arguably the strongest club comp in Australia the Shute Shield has a lot of room to grow and develop before splitting off same too for Hospital Cup.
In this forum the question is does Subbies play a role in the ongoing development of the game?

 

[BJT]

I don't know of a national competition that has been successfully implemented without a strong local (club) competition being in place. With NRL & AFL they were almost forced into national comps as it was the only option left to grow. Arguably the strongest club comp in Australia the Shute Shield has a lot of room to grow and develop before splitting off same too for Hospital Cup.
In this forum the question is does Subbies play a role in the ongoing development of the game?

I think Subbies role in developing the game really depends on the resources that are provided to clubs. If you are a coach in subbies, you can't move beyond level 2 coaching. So if you want players and the game to develop, its difficult if its not a platform for coaches to grow.

 

[Pfitzy]

I think Subbies role in developing the game really depends on the resources that are provided to clubs. If you are a coach in subbies, you can't move beyond level 2 coaching. So if you want players and the game to develop, its difficult if its not a platform for coaches to grow.

If it gets a Coach to Level 2, and they want to press upwards then the pro ranks is where they should head. This would help the development of higher level coaches which we've desperately lacked at Super level, across the nature.

 

[BundyBear]

Has anyone heard any information regarding divisions? I would expect:

Div 1 - Knox Down, Hunters Hill Up
Div 2 - Barker Down, Beecroft Up (On the strength of their colts program)
Div 3 - Hawkesbury Ag Down, Manly Up

 

[BJT]

Has anyone heard any information regarding divisions? I would expect:

Div 1 - Knox Down, Hunters Hill Up
Div 2 - Barker Down, Beecroft Up (On the strength of their colts program)
Div 3 - Hawkesbury Ag Down, Manly Up

Hunters Hill to claim big issues with player retention and needing to stay in Div 2, only for those issues to be completely unfounded come Round 1. To be fair, despite their ongoing issues my understanding is Knox have never wanted to go down either.

 

[Pfitzy]

Has anyone heard any information regarding divisions? I would expect:

Div 2 - Barker Down, Beecroft Up (On the strength of their colts program)

Barker only fielded 2 teams + Colts last year, so "down" might require further thinking as to "how far".

Not sure Manly would be ready to go up to Div 3, having only just added a permanent Second Grade.

I don't think we'll see 8 clubs across both Divs 2-3 based on how 2021 was going for some of them. Post-COVID Subbies is an interesting prospect given two seasons cut in half (one of which was cancelled). Recruitment after that, and considering things opening up again, is a whole new ball game.

 

[BundyBear]

I have the leaked division one list and can CONFIRM there has been no changes to the 2021! Knox have survived!

Blue Mountains
Colleagues
Drummoyne
Forest
Mosman
Knox
Petersham
Waverly

 

[BundyBear]

The NSW Suburban Rugby Offices are currently ringing. I confirmed two days ago that Division 1 is sorted, but apparently the other divisions are far from settled. I have heard there will be multiple exits from Division 2 (not just one) and at the same time, no one has agreed to come up. Subbies have pleaded with Iggies Old Boys to promote but they have a high level of reluctance. Also, expect to see a few sides from Division 4 are attempting to move up which has thrown the placements into catastrophe.

The Suburban Rugby are now exploring multiple options, including uneven divisions between Division 2 (6) , Division 3 (10) and Division 4 (8). They are also considering options of having just two larger divisions for Division 2 and 3 (with no Division 4). In this instance, Division 2 would field 3 compulsory grades, colts and an optional 4th grade. All other clubs would participate in Division 3.