Sydney Subbies 2025

[The Wombat]

Is it possible for a club below div 2 to grow into a Div 1 calibre club? I don’t think so unfortunately

 

[Odyssey_Park the 2nd]

Is it possible for a club below div 2 to grow into a Div 1 calibre club? I don’t think so unfortunately

If the Lane Cove/Old Iggies merger continues to attract colts like this year they might be a shot. But as Bernie has pointed out there’s still a lot of building.
I’d say they would need at least 10 years to build numbers in grade, so would be a long slog before you consider quality. They will need a long stint in Division 2 first. Though once the colts influx dries up you struggle. Look at Hills and Epping.

Of the Div 2 clubs now I’d say UNSW will win the club championship this year and be the next club to be promoted. Hopefully Subbies give Newport some time to establish themselves in Div 1.

 

[CAS_Rugby]

So it’s the schools fault rugby is dying?

Goodness me.

 

[Odyssey_Park the 2nd]

So it’s the schools fault rugby is dying?

Goodness me.

Yes.

 

[CAS_Rugby]

Yes.

 

[footy_footy]

Is it possible for a club below div 2 to grow into a Div 1 calibre club? I don’t think so unfortunately

I tend to agree and would go as far to say that most Div 2 clubs would struggle. Whilst a few clubs are perhaps big enough - UNSW, St Pat's, Petersham, Forest, Briars (to a lesser extent) - they don't have the quality to compete. Forest as the example in 2024 and the Petersham and St Pat's in 2023.

Lindfield gave a good account of themselves in Div1 last year and hopefully Newport can do the same in 2025.

Unless there are major improvements in any of the Div 2 clubs it will likely be a revolving door at the top of Div 2 and bottom of Div 1. Newport left them all for dead last year.

With that said some Div 2 predictions!

Barraclough - Briars beat UNSW in the GF. But at what cost to Briars? could be a HAC style year where 1st Grade succeed and the rest suffer. Wasn't a happy year for Briars outside of 1s in 2024 and depth hasn't been a strong suit in recent years. UNSW have been knocking on the door for 5+ years now and 2025 could be their time.

Club Championship - 3 horse race between UNSW, St Pat's and Forest as the clubs with most depth. Forest to fall shot on account of a struggling colts, St Pat's 1st Grade is an unknown but if recent years are any indication it will be their achilles heel which leaves ol' reliable UNSW to take home the spoils. Maybe I'm been a bit hard on Petersham but their 2024 form was not inspiring in 1s or through the grades (except for a very strong 3s). Irish not having Colts or 4s makes it near impossible. Briars, not in the picture for the reasons mentioned above.

Colts - hard to go past a GF rematch between St Pat's & UNSW. Ordinarily Forest would be top of the list but - their Colts haven't trialled in 2025 and I'm led to believe there are some struggles. UNSW have the ultimate Colts talent pool at their doorstep and St Pat's colts have been right up there in recent years.

Some big round 1 match ups, headlined by St Pat's @ UNSW. Will also be interesting to see how Irish fare at Melwood. Briars @ Petersham a nice inner west derby - interested to see how Petersham bounce back after a tough 2024 and whether Briars 1s are the team to beat!

 

[CrashBandicoot2]

Newport left them all for dead last year.

Newport couldn't get it done in 2's and 4's though....

 

[CrashBandicoot2]

I tend to agree and would go as far to say that most Div 2 clubs would struggle. Whilst a few clubs are perhaps big enough - UNSW, St Pat's, Petersham, Forest, Briars (to a lesser extent) - they don't have the quality to compete. Forest as the example in 2024 and the Petersham and St Pat's in 2023.

Lindfield gave a good account of themselves in Div1 last year and hopefully Newport can do the same in 2025.

Unless there are major improvements in any of the Div 2 clubs it will likely be a revolving door at the top of Div 2 and bottom of Div 1. Newport left them all for dead last year.

With that said some Div 2 predictions!

Barraclough - Briars beat UNSW in the GF. But at what cost to Briars? could be a HAC style year where 1st Grade succeed and the rest suffer. Wasn't a happy year for Briars outside of 1s in 2024 and depth hasn't been a strong suit in recent years. UNSW have been knocking on the door for 5+ years now and 2025 could be their time.

Club Championship - 3 horse race between UNSW, St Pat's and Forest as the clubs with most depth. Forest to fall shot on account of a struggling colts, St Pat's 1st Grade is an unknown but if recent years are any indication it will be their achilles heel which leaves ol' reliable UNSW to take home the spoils. Maybe I'm been a bit hard on Petersham but their 2024 form was not inspiring in 1s or through the grades (except for a very strong 3s). Irish not having Colts or 4s makes it near impossible. Briars, not in the picture for the reasons mentioned above.

Colts - hard to go past a GF rematch between St Pat's & UNSW. Ordinarily Forest would be top of the list but - their Colts haven't trialled in 2025 and I'm led to believe there are some struggles. UNSW have the ultimate Colts talent pool at their doorstep and St Pat's colts have been right up there in recent years.

Some big round 1 match ups, headlined by St Pat's @ UNSW. Will also be interesting to see how Irish fare at Melwood. Briars @ Petersham a nice inner west derby - interested to see how Petersham bounce back after a tough 2024 and whether Briars 1s are the team to beat!

What is the news out of Forest apart from Colts? Any drop off in players with the drop to Div 2?

They were always there abouts in Kentwell without getting the results. The drop off in Barraclough standard may open the door to repeat the dose from 2019 again.

 

[Pfitzy]

Any drop off in players with the drop to Div 2?

Not talking about Forest directly, but I find this attitude from players puzzling if it is at all accurate.

All I hear about is how guys want to play for a club and why would they go somewhere else.

Yet anyone getting punted from Div 1 immediately starts flapping their hands about losing players from their top end stocks.

I think it is more clubs worried about their loss of prestige. And if they have a great culture then what is there to worry about?

We're all in the same amateur comp ffs...

 

[footy_footy]

Not talking about Forest directly, but I find this attitude from players puzzling if it is at all accurate.

All I hear about is how guys want to play for a club and why would they go somewhere else.

Yet anyone getting punted from Div 1 immediately starts flapping their hands about losing players from their top end stocks.

I think it is more clubs worried about their loss of prestige. And if they have a great culture then what is there to worry about?

We're all in the same amateur comp ffs...

I think it can work the opposite way sometimes as the prospect of more competitive footy appeals to some fringe player - last year St Pat's numbers increased with the move to Div 2. Unsure how Petersham fared but they had very reliable numbers throughout the season.

 

[DaSchmooze]

Not talking about Forest directly, but I find this attitude from players puzzling if it is at all accurate.

All I hear about is how guys want to play for a club and why would they go somewhere else.

Yet anyone getting punted from Div 1 immediately starts flapping their hands about losing players from their top end stocks.

I think it is more clubs worried about their loss of prestige. And if they have a great culture then what is there to worry about?

We're all in the same amateur comp ffs...

Yes agreed

 

[Odyssey_Park the 2nd]

View attachment 21376

Not talking about Forest directly, but I find this attitude from players puzzling if it is at all accurate.

All I hear about is how guys want to play for a club and why would they go somewhere else.

Yet anyone getting punted from Div 1 immediately starts flapping their hands about losing players from their top end stocks.

I think it is more clubs worried about their loss of prestige. And if they have a great culture then what is there to worry about?

We're all in the same amateur comp ffs...

Players are a fickle group. They see a club struggling and they are out the door regardless. Dropping divisions suggests a club isn’t winning and winning drives numbers

 

[parkfootyenthusiast2]

Is it possible for a club below div 2 to grow into a Div 1 calibre club? I don’t think so unfortunately

I'd say there's a very solid list of clubs who've been promoted in Div 1 from Div 2 and become a permanent fixture there since. In my time in the comp, we've seen Blue Mountains and Waverley come up and become heavyweights. Hunters Hill went up and down a bit before solidifying and becoming heavyweights, even Lindfield was up and reasonably strong before going down due to a player payment scandal, but they've found their way back and look strong again.

I'd say the bigger jump is from Div 3 to Div 2 tbh..

 

[Pfitzy]

Div 4 predictions - the quick version

Promises to be a really interesting competition, and while not a lot of these teams would be considered powerhouses, they are fairly evenly matched IMHO and the travel is easy!

Jeffrey Cup for senior grade I would say Chatswood and Wakehurst are fairly strong, having seen them both last year along with Kings. Even with a few personnel losses, I think Stags and Wakehurst will fight it out for the title. The other clubs (Balmain, St Ives, Mac Uni) finished lower down in Div 5 which was very strong, so they could surprise a few.

Radford Cup is going to be - in a word - awesome! Obviously the age restriction plays a part in how things will turn out, so it is hard to make predictions. Good to see Kings back with Colts and looking to rebuild. I'm completely guessing to say Chatswood and Wakehurst will be strong here again, but who knows?

 

[Pfitzy]

I'd say the bigger jump is from Div 3 to Div 2 tbh..

With having to find another 2 Grades, definitely.

We might have a choice to make as a Union:

1) Hive off the top 12 clubs into a 4 Grades + Colts competition playing one round with extended finals. Everyone else 2 Grades + Colts max
2) Same as above, but Colts competition operating separately from Grade to be inter-Divisional
3) Drop 2nd Division to 3 Grades + Colts and help bridge that gap to Div 3's 2 Grades + Colts

 

[Pfitzy]

Div 5 predictions

This features 4 teams from last year's Division 4 - Renegades, Raptors, Redfield, Canterbury - so is in effect Division 4. Competing for the McLean and Grose Cups. So yeah... Div 4.

What has changed is the addition of Maccabi from Division 5 (except they were already in Div 5 ) and 2 x Div 3 sides in Harlequins and HVRU, with Div 2's Epping.

The division number doesn't really mean a lot as it is going to be hotly contested.

Raptors were Club Champions and runners-up in both grades last year and will have lost none of their potency despite claims they've lost players.
Redfield are rumoured to be back at strength, having dealt with a hideous injury toll in 2024 that saw them forfeit more games than in their history.
Canterbury will be strong in Second Grade but First Grade remains to be seen
Maccabi will want to put in a strong showing in preparation for the Maccabiah Games in July, which may leave them exposed in the back half.
Epping will be Epping and likely to retain a strong base off 2 premierships last year
Valley are no mugs and will have condensed their strength into 2 teams.
Harlequins I've always found fit and organised, so won't be out of the running either.

And Renegades? Well we've had some turnover and picked up a lot of new faces, with good training numbers so far.
Will we have the class of our opposition? I certainly hope so!

McLean Cup - who can say? Personnel changes are going to be key, and the division is looking a lot tougher than it did a couple of weeks back.
You'd be mad to go past Raptors and Valley as finalists, with Epping to ride the wave of 2024 and Harlequins to bounce back from a tough year. However I think it'll get very interesting as we turn the corner into July and I reckon the clubs who will find it most challenging are Canterbury and Maccabi just on a depth basis.

Grose Cup - the only certainties to contest finals to my mind are Canterbury, for reasons explained previously in this thread. They'll find sterner opposition this year in Epping and Valley at the very least. The last spot will be a pit fight between whoever stays the most healthy.

 

[Pfitzy]

Divison 6 predictions.

Well I don't want to be glib, you understand, but this is a fight between Sydney Harbour and Burraneer.

Everyone else is playing for bronze. No offence.

 

[Footyhead67]

Same as above, but Colts competition operating separately from Grade to be inter-Divisional

Only problem with this is colts teams playing at different venues to their grade exposes a lot of depth issues (especially during away games).

Drop 2nd Division to 3 Grades + Colts and help bridge that gap to Div 3's 2 Grades + Colts

IMO I don't think we should remove a team from 2nd Div in hope a Div 3 team can potentially bridge the gap. 5/6 Div 2 (only exception being Irish which is understandable) teams have shown they can conformably field a 4th grade so why drop it?

Whose not to say Irish has a relatively successful year and next year builds again to field a 4th grade? And if a Div 3 club with colts takes the jump, you've got it all sorted. However, I know it sounds easier than it is.

I think baby steps is the best solution to jump from Div 3 to Div 2.

 

[Pfitzy]

5/6 Div 2 (only exception being Irish which is understandable) teams have shown they can conformably field a 4th grade so why drop it?

It's 5 out of 6 teams currently in the division. But it is 5 out of 8 teams that would help that division achieve stability.

Whose not to say Irish has a relatively successful year and next year builds again to field a 4th grade? And if a Div 3 club with colts takes the jump, you've got it all sorted. However, I know it sounds easier than it is.

Everything does

However, talking to people from Irish and English community rugby, their take is that clubs whould really be competitive at 2 Grades (As and Reserves) and then put age teams (Colts at 21/20/19) to make the link to their juniors.

It isn't that different from how Subbies is structured at the top end: First Grade, Second Grade, Colts, the rest.

 

[The Wombat]

Not talking about Forest directly, but I find this attitude from players puzzling if it is at all accurate.

All I hear about is how guys want to play for a club and why would they go somewhere else.

Yet anyone getting punted from Div 1 immediately starts flapping their hands about losing players from their top end stocks.

I think it is more clubs worried about their loss of prestige. And if they have a great culture then what is there to worry about?

We're all in the same amateur comp ffs...

It definitely plays a roll for the top talent. They might step down from a shute shield club for subbies div 1 but not anything below. For example, it’s doubtful Blue Mountains build the first grade squad they’ve had over the last couple of years if they were in Div 2 or lower