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Australian Rugby / RA

stillmissit

Peter Fenwicke (45)
cough cough

Are you serious, I have put forward heaps of comments on the issues with junior teams its a joke how we manage junior rugby in Sydney.

OMG, whats the difference between the Nobody Really Cares concepts to a National Domestic Competition.

Were to start.

If you read my posts over the years, I repeatedly said it will take five years to get off the ground. To use the Super Rugby income in part to fund the development of a new competition.

The first 18 months in discussions with all stakeholders including media on the need to have such a competition.

The next 12 months in developing a system that had the support of the broader Rugby community across all stake holders.

The next 6 months determining where the teams should be located.

The next 12 to 18 months looking for investors, sponsors to invest in the new competition.

The last few months in implementing the above plan.

Both the ARC & NRC where the brain farts of Flower & Pulver developed in a broad room in about six months with little to no negotiation with other stakeholders. This alone doomed it to fail.

The error and error is way to kind a word is the mega, massive, huge, large, big error that both the ARC & NRC were rushed and forced upon the Rugby community with way to little negotiation with various stakeholders effected and then any objection by other stakeholders both ignored and over ridden.

One of the few things that Football got right was a thing called the Australia Cup, last year close to 800 clubs took part. In brief its similar to the FA Cup in England where any team can play in a national knock out competition. They took about 3 and a half years in negotiation with all stakeholders to agree on how it would run and operate. Then about 3 months to set up.

The importance of getting everyone on broad has never been at the heart of RA decision making.
Agree with a lot of this half. There is a bit more to it than getting buy in to an idea, it must be able to generate income or we spend 5 years setting something up and then nobody apart from rusted on old bastards like me go to watch it. I am more the organic type, start it small and see if it grows
Never heard of the Australia Cup is there somewhere where I can read a bit about it?
 

dru

Tim Horan (67)
That or NZ will agree to an open eligibility policy within Super Rugby to even up the competition.

No thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SMI, It was going to be necessary imo, should we have stuck with 5 teams, let alone any expansion under Super. TBH it the comp is going to have any chance of beiong a stand alone entity with separate management from the Unions, it is needed anyway.

That said, right now into the shrink strategy, Aus talent will be available and dispersing quickly. There wont be a demand for open selection policies until that settles.
 

Dan54

Tim Horan (67)
Fuck yeah! Crazy! Imagine a competition like the NRL where the competitiveness and health of the comp is the priority; where players of both nations can move between teams because it isn’t some pseudo development tool, the competition is the star in its own right. No thank you!
Yeah and like the NRL, where noone gives a rats arse about the tests?? Yeah nah!!
 

Crashy

Colin Windon (37)
yeah but the NRL rakes in more cash than any other rugby comp on the planet. I hate everything about the game - but the financial clout they have an the ability to pilfer talent from Aus and NZ is incredible. I actually think its a threat to global rugby.
And before anyone laughs - In the last 2 year, England has seen 3 professional clubs disappear and we've had one..
 

Dan54

Tim Horan (67)
yeah but the NRL rakes in more cash than any other rugby comp on the planet. I hate everything about the game - but the financial clout they have an the ability to pilfer talent from Aus and NZ is incredible. I actually think its a threat to global rugby.
And before anyone laughs - In the last 2 year, England has seen 3 professional clubs disappear and we've had one..
Yeah NRL could make more than any other rugby comp on the Planet, I don't know what any of them make to be honest. But I thought Top 14 etc were all pretty big. 6Ns get 1.2 billion for 5 years, and thats only 5 weeks a year etc and not even sure what WC makes, but I think it a few Billion too.
 

Crashy

Colin Windon (37)
what worries me is that right now we're still losing players to Japan and the UK - and both their currencies are as weak as piss against the AUD. God forbid if the pound gets to 3-1 again or the yen to 60..
We're a massive net exporter of talent which suggests we actually a pretty good production line of talent, but we're constantly swimming against the tide.
 

Fletch

Frank Row (1)
and horan was leaguie before he went to downlands. and pretty sure joe played Penrith RSL jnrs
Can confirm he came for a 10-week 7s season/ promotion in our first year in 2014 before starring for NSWPSSA and heading to Kings. We were determined to make him play his age group in Sunday XVs as we wanted to end having kids not on the radar unless they were forced to play up ages so he didn't stick around for the winter. Plenty were keen to have him in Isaiya Katoa's team but you make one exception and it becomes the rule. He qualified for Eastwood in the 14s State Champs at Orange registering with an Eastwood village club and playing with schoolmates I believe but not sure if he played any other season.
 

Adam84

Phil Kearns (64)
I played Aussie rules and soccer before rugby but have little interest in either of those now. This obsession with the code people played first, especially in pre/early teens is over the top.

Before 16 I’d argue any sport is a good sport for development, and the more the merrier. 16 and onwards is where learning/swapping to a new sport becomes more difficult but certainly not prohibitive
 
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Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Remember you asked, its the short version but a long post.

Puts on helmet, but its what I have been arguing for over 20 years, kinda use to negative replies.

Why 2006, there were a number of things, and some come from the mid 90's. Some background to why the say 2002 and by 2006 it was SCREAMING.

Super Rugby was born in a media war, when League was at its lowest in years, Football was approaching bankruptcy, and AFL in a rare time of not great management.

Fox paid well over to ensure Rugby could compete with league in the media war, and put many positive articles across News papers. Fox needed Rugby to succeed and put everything into making Super Rugby successful.

The results were obvious, crowds second only to AFL, the best media deal in Australia if measured against games played, all was looking good only blue sky above.

I on the other hand, I was looking at different data, and to explain.

Super Rugby, especially with the News output totally over rode club Rugby, and club Rugby was loosing lots of local ground. This is totally under estimated because when club Rugby was constantly in the news it attracted good players. By 2006 the fall off in player quality was becoming noticeable.

Then their was the recovery by the codes, League was recovering and growing again, AFL got back to its excellence management, Basketball started to get more involved with the USA basketball, Football went bankrupt with the old Soccer Australia unable to fly out the national team and then recovered and started a new competition in the A-League.

The next relative change was Test Cricket started to drop a little, as well as some other more traditional sports.

The above all between say 2002 and 2006, and change continues today. The biggie in 2006 was the Socceroos made their first world cup in decades. The reaction by the media was huge and so were the ratings. Further Football joined the Asian Football Confederation resulting in many regular games as opposed to a game every four years.

News by now had both AFL, and League on Fox, the subscriptions were in, Rugby was no longer critical to Fox. In fact League and AFL were more important to Fox than Rugby. Fox also picked up Football including all national games. E-games where starting to grow.

The GPS schools parent demographic was changing, and although by far still dominate, both Football & AFL were making inroads into these schools.

Effectively the environment Super Rugby was born in and created in which lead to its success not longer existed.

To me it was obvious nay beyond obvious, all the other codes had become stronger than they were, we were no longer Fox's favourite child, Football was now a genuine competitor for the non rugby fans who watched the test matches, in the Socceroo's in Asia. This followed on from the 2002 WC in Japan and Korea when Australians started to realise that our Asian neighbours could play sport.

Further any analysis of any long term growth and success, of sporting codes world over is with National Domestic Competitions.

For me the total change in the environment Rugby found itself in was not only ignored, if questioned it was both laughed at and openly attacked [BTW who was right] . The near cult like support of Super Rugby's systems by Rugby fans, and being run by ""Lunch A Lot" types in Australia, resulted in creating an environment where Rugby was incapable of adapting to the changes happening around it. Whereas League and AFL were constantly making changes.

This has continued and a great non Rugby example is Cricket, which was loosing ratings and crowds especially Test Cricket and not only in Australia. India then stated 20 20 and Australia the Big Bash i.e. a sorta club quick competition. 20 20 is a perfect example of a code reacting to change and moved to a National Domestic Competition.

Without stating the obvious, compare Rugby today, to League, AFL, Football, Basketball, Netball to Rugby in 2000. For me using US sports franchise systems was the perfect model.

I can explain in much more detail if you want, but how those running the show when everything changed around them, showed little to no reaction is the kind would say sad, the cruel would say tragic.
Well said mate, I can't like this post enough
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Yeah and like the NRL, where noone gives a rats arse about the tests?? Yeah nah!!
I think you'll find that the leaguies are well and truly starting to give a rats about tests. Their undiscovered country is a vibrant international game and they are sparing no expense to create one by whatever means they can.

As I write the NZRU rescheduled an all NZ super rugby semi to avoid a clash with the Auckland Warriors rugby league team. Anyone around here would be foolish, I suggest, to underestimate rugby league and its determination to surpass rugby in the pacific.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Despite your thesis you have never once proposed a solution apart from ‘national competition’.

Who are these teams? Who supports them? How would it be any different from ARC/NRC?
It would be different from the ARC/NRC because it would be based around clubs which have been in existence for over a hundred years and thus have inbuilt community support for the tough times.

You talk as if previously amateur clubs transitioning to professional clubs is something novel and unknown to the world of rugby. English Premier Rugby and French Top 14 are full of clubs who were established in the amateur era and made the transition with the support of the relevant governing bodies - each of whom recognised that this was the way to go because in world sport the engine of player (and coach) development is club based.
 

SouthernX

Jim Lenehan (48)
I think you'll find that the leaguies are well and truly starting to give a rats about tests. Their undiscovered country is a vibrant international game and they are sparing no expense to create one by whatever means they can.

As I write the NZRU rescheduled an all NZ super rugby semi to avoid a clash with the Auckland Warriors rugby league team. Anyone around here would be foolish, I suggest, to underestimate rugby league and its determination to surpass rugby in the pacific.

lucky for rugby - there is no international rugby league federation that’s going to pump millions of dollars into growing the game in the pacific.

We already saw the clusterfuck with Vlandy and the PNG bid being tied to a 600 million dollar investment from Australian govt.

I’m not even the slightest bit worried about RL expansion, I’m more worried about 15s game in this country and the people managing the product & competitions
 

Omar Comin'

Chilla Wilson (44)
what worries me is that right now we're still losing players to Japan and the UK - and both their currencies are as weak as piss against the AUD. God forbid if the pound gets to 3-1 again or the yen to 60..
We're a massive net exporter of talent which suggests we actually a pretty good production line of talent, but we're constantly swimming against the tide.

There's still only a limited number of contracts up for grabs at the top levels in Japan and Europe. There's only 4 other top tier competitions to go to, they all have limits on foreign players, and the pool of potential professional players continues to increase due to the growth of the sport globally.

I think you'd find that if professional rugby suddenly ceased to exist in Australia a lot of guys (even established super rugby players) would have to give up the dream, or accept playing in secondary leagues on lower pay. If Australia reverted to a domestic competition the standard of player would still be pretty good because of this.
 
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DropGoal

Ward Prentice (10)
lucky for rugby - there is no international rugby league federation that’s going to pump millions of dollars into growing the game in the pacific.

We already saw the clusterfuck with Vlandy and the PNG bid being tied to a 600 million dollar investment from Australian govt.

I’m not even the slightest bit worried about RL expansion, I’m more worried about 15s game in this country and the people managing the product & competitions
Eden park was dead empty for a semi final with home team playing in it .

mount smart stadium was full for a wahs regular season game , even dan carter preferred to attend it
 

Dan54

Tim Horan (67)
as theyI think you'll find that the leaguies are well and truly starting to give a rats about tests. Their undiscovered country is a vibrant international game and they are sparing no expense to create one by whatever means they can.

As I write the NZRU rescheduled an all NZ super rugby semi to avoid a clash with the Auckland Warriors rugby league team. Anyone around here would be foolish, I suggest, to underestimate rugby league and its determination to surpass rugby in the pacific.
Actually Hurricanes rescheduled it (I think at Sky's request) as Sky didn't want clash of games fir their viewers. But take your point, and noone is underestimating the challenges from any other sport etc that I am aware of. It is a little different here, where players etc are quite happy to say they support Warriors etc in tv interviews etc.
 

eastman

Colin Windon (37)
It would be different from the ARC/NRC because it would be based around clubs which have been in existence for over a hundred years and thus have inbuilt community support for the tough times.

You talk as if previously amateur clubs transitioning to professional clubs is something novel and unknown to the world of rugby. English Premier Rugby and French Top 14 are full of clubs who were established in the amateur era and made the transition with the support of the relevant governing bodies - each of whom recognised that this was the way to go because in world sport the engine of player (and coach) development is club based.
So a rugby competition with Randwick and Sydney Uni is the way to grow the game in this country with their dozens of existing fans.
We are well and truly fucked if we think an expanded Shute Shield is the way to go.
 

hoggy

Trevor Allan (34)
I think it is obvious that we would use the existing 4 teams, They could easily be rebranded, I mean surely the Waratahs would become the Sydney Waratahs. The issue you have is where do the other teams come from, you would hope that the Rebels could be resurrected , potentially add the Drua, you then have to come up with 2 other teams and common sense would dictate one each from NSW & QLD.

If one of those happens to be a Randwick then so be it, if they can come up with backers, maybe Sunnybank from QLD. or maybe you create two teams, who knows.
Play a domestic league and then look to cross over games with NZ and maybe Japan, but base it around your domestic product.

The issue is after 25 years of Super rugby were pretty much broke, a competition that was supposed to deliver untold riches and conquer foreign markets, has delivered pretty much the exact opposite a code on its arse.
 
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