Australian Rugby / RA

[dru]

Whatever that means? It's pretty basic. You can have systems that you can base your game around, but when play has broken down and its the 6th phase, there is no point running a random set move that the other team can see from a mile away. Players look for weaknesses in the defense and attack it

It's really how should be played by the best players

You would think so, wouldn't you? I recall something around a presentation from Deans to the player group "introducing" them to some ballet (yes ballet) concept of space in performance. Now, it isn't that there is no potential cross over of the idea into rugby, but I understand the players leaving the presentation muttering along the lines of "wtf was that?".

I don't imagine it translated well into action on the field.

 

[stillmissit]

So in the wash-up of this discussion on Deans and Jones, my vote is still with Deans who, it appears, was ahead of his time. Like all of us, he had his faults. for which I thank Rodha for pointing out.

 

[stillmissit]

You would think so, wouldn't you? I recall something around a presentation from Deans to the player group "introducing" them to some ballet (yes ballet) concept of space in performance. Now, it isn't that there is no potential cross over of the idea into rugby, but I understand the players leaving the presentation muttering along the lines of "wtf was that?".

I don't imagine it translated well into action on the field.

Too smart for his own good?

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

Looking at those charts with the win percentage is really depressing to see the number keep getting lower with the occasional dead cat bounce.

Starts an entire new conversation about player number, retention, development.

 

[Tomthumb]

You would think so, wouldn't you? I recall something around a presentation from Deans to the player group "introducing" them to some ballet (yes ballet) concept of space in performance. Now, it isn't that there is no potential cross over of the idea into rugby, but I understand the players leaving the presentation muttering along the lines of "wtf was that?".

I don't imagine it translated well into action on the field.

I will defend Deans from one point. Australian players don't seem to understand playing what's in front of them, whereas it's ingrained in NZ Rugby. It's why the AB's have been the benchmark from counter attack and broken play

Australian rugby seems to get paralysis by analysis these days

 

[stillmissit]

I will defend Deans from one point. Australian players don't seem to understand playing what's in front of them, whereas it's ingrained in NZ Rugby. It's why the AB's have been the benchmark from counter attack and broken play

Australian rugby seems to get paralysis by analysis these days

I do believe the disease is on the way out, which I hope signals the bottom of the 15-year slump has been hit.
2023 is make or second tier for us.

 

[dru]

I will defend Deans from one point. Australian players don't seem to understand playing what's in front of them, whereas it's ingrained in NZ Rugby. It's why the AB's have been the benchmark from counter attack and broken play

Australian rugby seems to get paralysis by analysis these days

I get the impression that Deans' concept of playing what is in front actually meant playing what Deans saw in front of them - with preset intentions under each category of what he sees. It's not exactly the same as the player playing what is in front of him. Even if Deans had been able to get his ideas into the player group, it's still not playing what they see. Without the ideas crossing into the players head it's pretty much destined for confusion.

I don't suppose that the quantity of different pieces is anything like what a player has to learn in Grid Iron, but in that case the coach calls across what he is seeing.

Deans was a great coach for playing an effective rugby if the players on hand were up to it and he had available the particular talents he desired in each position. If the talent was less deep, with differences from his precepts, I'm not at all sure is was very capable of adapting to get the best team performance from the talent he has on hand. He could adapt his intentions with shifts in the way rugby is played, but not really for the talent at his disposal.

 

[wamberal]

I will defend Deans from one point. Australian players don't seem to understand playing what's in front of them, whereas it's ingrained in NZ Rugby. It's why the AB's have been the benchmark from counter attack and broken play

Australian rugby seems to get paralysis by analysis these days.

Maybe it has something to do with the relative importance, and player depth, between them and us. We play a niche sport, and I would guess that many Aussie kids who play rugby also play other codes: whereas in New Zealand I would guess that most kids who play rugby see it as their only winter sport.

Competitiveness throughout the player ranks must be greater over there which is a great incentive to train and practice hard, learn the basics, and gain confidence in your ability to outperform your rivals.

Its relatively easier to make the grade here than it is over there.

 

[stillmissit]

Maybe it has something to do with the relative importance, and player depth, between them and us. We play a niche sport, and I would guess that many Aussie kids who play rugby also play other codes: whereas in New Zealand I would guess that most kids who play rugby see it as their only winter sport.

Competitiveness throughout the player ranks must be greater over there which is a great incentive to train and practice hard, learn the basics, and gain confidence in your ability to outperform your rivals.

Its relatively easier to make the grade here than it is over there.

Some good points there Wamberal. Over the last week or two after watching the utube on a private school in QLD rugby season, the best and simplest thing we can do is to protect the private schools rugby from further deterioration.
I have been banging the drum about western Sydney for 20 years and rugby has gone to RL/AFL in the last 10. If we don't protect rugby in those private schools we are completely done. I heard that Kings school in Sydney got rid of one or two rugby pitches to make way for more soccer pitches which suit the current pupils.

 

[wamberal]

Some good points there Wamberal. Over the last week or two after watching the utube on a private school in QLD rugby season, the best and simplest thing we can do is to protect the private schools rugby from further deterioration.
I have been banging the drum about western Sydney for 20 years and rugby has gone to Rugby League/AFL in the last 10. If we don't protect rugby in those private schools we are completely done. I heard that Kings school in Sydney got rid of one or two rugby pitches to make way for more soccer pitches which suit the current pupils.

It is indicative of our low profile when the Premier of NSW stated that Argentina "only plays one sport, and we play many".

 

[Tomthumb]

Maybe it has something to do with the relative importance, and player depth, between them and us. We play a niche sport, and I would guess that many Aussie kids who play rugby also play other codes: whereas in New Zealand I would guess that most kids who play rugby see it as their only winter sport.

Competitiveness throughout the player ranks must be greater over there which is a great incentive to train and practice hard, learn the basics, and gain confidence in your ability to outperform your rivals.

Its relatively easier to make the grade here than it is over there.

Yeah but having the ability to put players into space without tedious scripted plays is what should be focused on by coaches at all grades regardless

This is a nation that has won 3 world cups, I'm kinda sick of this "we have no plyers" stuff. If Ireland can be the best team in the world, so can we

 

[rodha]

Will Genia is the only player of that Deans era I've heard discuss differences in Wallabies coaches he's played under:

‘He still harbours aspirations’: Why history making Cheika could yet coach the Wallabies again

‘He still harbours aspirations’: Why history making Cheika could yet coach the Wallabies again

www.foxsports.com.au

While Genia, who was also coached by former Wallabies coaches Eddie Jones and John Connolly at Super Rugby level, said that all of his former mentors were gifted in their own right, he believes Cheika was on a different level.

“They all had a winner’s mentality but it probably stood out a lot more with Cheik because he was very outwardly expressive,” he said. “Eddie probably had the biggest impact on my career because he was my first coach, and he’s as tough and as hard as they come. He’s all about high expectations and high standards of quality and just work, and he very much ingrained that in me from the start, so he definitely had the biggest impact.

“Ewen (McKenzie) tactically I thought was an excellent coach. Incredibly astute and understood the game.

“Robbie (Deans), was before his time. He was all about player empowerment, creating leadership within the group, making sure everybody was on level footing. I really, really enjoyed that about Robbie as a coach.

“But the reason I really connected with Cheik was when he came in as Wallaby coach, in all my years previously, there was never anything really defined about what it meant to be a part of a Wallaby team. At certain points throughout my career it just felt like you were getting picked in the Aussie schoolboys and you’re going away on a tour.

“Whereas when Cheik came in it was like, ‘you’re playing for Australia. This is what it means to represent Australia.’ He created an identity around the Wallabies that made you feel connected to him even when you were still playing with your Super Rugby provinces.”

Genia added that Cheika’s tactical nous was also under-appreciated, even if he lost his way in 2019 as RA looked to rein in the coach’s totalitarian influence by bringing in Scott Johnson as director of rugby.

“He actually understands the intricacies around the shape of the game, where guys are supposed to be, when they’re running their lines and the timing of when someone should be coming out the back,” Genia said.

“He understands what positions people should be looking to exit, where we should be able to kick, he understands those things.

“He’s got an excellent rugby brain and I certainly think it is one of those things, it’s glossed over mainly because everybody looks at the emotion, the emotional side of it, the confrontational, that sort of stuff, they focus so much more on that because it’s so much more obvious to them as opposed to the finer details around the game.”

 

[Viking]

In regards to Genia's comments, it's quite interesting, I feel he likes Cheika the most as Cheika favoured him but also gave Genia a bit more purpose in his career which most senior players are probably striving for. Think about how most employees after a while want to work for a company with more "purpose" as opposed to just making the most money.

But in reality, it doesn't mean Cheika is the best coach. It just reflects he enjoyed playing under Chieka the most.

It's hard to say who the best coach is. If it's simply success/winning % then it's Deans or McKenzie (if you include success at the Reds). If it's who did Genia play his best rugby under then that it is also Deans or McKenzie.

Genia was certainly no-where near his best under Cheika and I don't think he was that old for age to be used as an excuse either. So it's quite interesting he thinks the best coach was Cheika even though he played his worst rugby under him.

 

[rodha]

In regards to Genia's comments, it's quite interesting, I feel he likes Cheika the most as Cheika favoured him but also gave Genia a bit more purpose in his career which most senior players are probably striving for. Think about how most employees after a while want to work for a company with more "purpose" as opposed to just making the most money.

But in reality, it doesn't mean Cheika is the best coach. It just reflects he enjoyed playing under Chieka the most.

It's hard to say who the best coach is. If it's simply success/winning % then it's Deans or McKenzie (if you include success at the Reds). If it's who did Genia play his best rugby under then that it is also Deans or McKenzie.

Genia was certainly no-where near his best under Cheika and I don't think he was that old for age to be used as an excuse either. So it's quite interesting he thinks the best coach was Cheika even though he played his worst rugby under him.

Sounds like Deans & Cheika were more man-manager types, while McKenzie was an outstanding technical & tactical coach, similar to Eddie Jones, who he did his apprenticeship under. I think it's patently obvious McKenzie had the sharpest rugby brain, just unfortunate a select minority of individuals from New South Wales didn't like him...

 

[Dctarget]

Eddie Jones has been dismissed by England 9 months out, surprised they pulled the trigger to be honest.

 

[dru]

I think it's patently obvious McKenzie had the sharpest rugby brain, just unfortunate a select minority of individuals from New South Wales didn't like him...

I tend to agree with this, though some of what we have been seeing on this thread - doesn't necessarily bear it out unfortunately.

Genia was certainly no-where near his best under Cheika and I don't think he was that old for age to be used as an excuse either. So it's quite interesting he thinks the best coach was Cheika even though he played his worst rugby under him.

What I got from it, is that we shouldn't reject out of hand the return of a former HC. Which brings us to this:

Eddie Jones has been dismissed by England 9 months out, surprised they pulled the trigger to be honest.

 

[PhilClinton]

Eddie Jones has been dismissed by England 9 months out, surprised they pulled the trigger to be honest.

Has it been 100% confirmed? I only saw articles yesterday implying it was happening.

Interesting the board reached out to players to provide anonymous feedback on Jones. Surely by the time you get to this stage, you're already across the player/coach relationship and aren't needing last minute evidence to support a sacking.

 

[Slim 293]

It hasn’t been confirmed, although it’s being reported as such…

Eddie Jones will split with the RFU on Monday, his seven-year reign as England coach over just nine months before the World Cup in France.

He will go down in history as the most successful England coach in regards to wins and losses, with a 73 per cent win rate, a World Cup runner’s up medal, two Six Nations titles and one grand slam.

England coach Eddie Jones sacked, Scott Robertson, Dan McKellar, Dave Rennie Wallabies coaching future

amp.smh.com.au

 

[rodha]

Georgina Robertson is reporting that Scott Robertson has a close relationship with RA Director Daniel Herbert (and with Borthwick reportedly getting the England job) suggesting that it's likely Razor will become Wallabies coach in 2024.

 

[Slim 293]

Georgina Robertson is reporting that Scott Robertson has a close relationship with Rugby Australia Director Daniel Herbert (and with Borthwick reportedly getting the England job) suggesting that it's likely Razor will become Wallabies coach in 2024.

She’s not suggesting that at all… simply highlighting they already have a good relationship.

He’s only an option if the Kiwis pass on him again.