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CAS Rugby 2014

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sarcophilus

Charlie Fox (21)
Waverley's third trial, i think Augies 1st, .....though I could be wrong as you never hear much from them here Or the ISA thread
the other Waverley results have been unfortunately average this year as well
their choice of teams to trial against may not have been good given the chatter from Riverview supporters and other keen observers and Augies consistency over the past few years
I see St Edmunds ACT were going to be hard to beat until last Saturday against Riverview as well
 

golden oldie

Bob McCowan (2)
rugby HQ, here's the Knox team from Saturday's game V Newington

1. G Comino
2. J Widders-Lee
3. A Black
4. L McDuff
5. M Basson
6. L Swinton
7. J Pierce
8. B Van Zyl
9. J.Rose
10. C Nicholas
11. D Bindczus
12. J Williams
13. C Watson
14. G Badenhorst
15. L Price
Missing a couple of expected regulars from this list.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
Waverley has been the dependable old Caterpiller diesel engine for many years.

It produced many fine rugby players over the years, including our own Governer General General Sir Pete Cossie.

Sydney Grammar has likewise produced many fine rugby players. The AAGPS thread has reported that this years Grammar intake has 27 rugby players in it.

With all the excitement of a significant anniversary dying down at NEW, and things reverting to a "normal" state, their 1st XV gets belted by Knox by 50 points.

The ISA competition seems to be Augies, then daylight.

There are also some pretty worrying trends in player numbers in Sydney Junior Rugby Union competitions.

ARU seem to have put most of their junior development eggs in the Brisbane and Sydney (TAS, Stannies and Kinross incl) private school basket.

Despite the success of the Aust teams in Super Rugby this year, the above observations are suggesting that the Australian rugby pyramid is not looking too healthy. Is it terminal?

Is the final sign that things are really crook in Tallarook when Cranbrook start winning games?
 

rtd32

Larry Dwyer (12)
I'm not just talking about the thrashing they received in the 1's.
That was the theme of the day,most games were 50+.
The 14b's won,the 16a's were competitive until the game was called off early,but every other game I heard about was a "no contest".


My apologies. In regards to this my depth of knowledge is very limited. The school has been known to perform at a consistently high standard of rugby over the years but it should be noted that:
1) They haven't been very competitive in the 16s level over that past 3 years (to my knowledge their best result has been 3rd) so the analogy of them "falling off a cliff" doesn't really hold true (sorry, I don't really follow any age groups younger than 16's and i only follow 16's loosely).

2) like many other CAS schools, Waverley are probably starting to see a dilution of talent across other sporting codes (when i started up at school Waverley fielded down to 13 E's... I doubt they would still be doing this today). And given they have limited resources/coaching staff in comparison to other schools (especially Cranbrook, Knox, and Barker) I think you'll find that this takes a significantly larger toll on them in comparison to other schools. In fact, the only school that has maintained strong depth in rugby is really Barker - maybe Knox, but they vary from year to year. Of course, this makes sense given they have a significantly larger cohort and had already experienced the bulk of this 'dilution of talent' by the time I'd finished school (which is a fair while ago now). Interestingly, over the past 4 years they've fielded down to 6ths or more and won 3 out of 4 times. Depth is key to winning in all grades, and Waverley simply don't have it.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Yes, but they were playing Augustine's who have less facilities and less students. Waverley would have more teams than Augustines. I've heard the same as ILTW, Waverley won 1 game out of 20 odd. They got close in a couple of others but scores of 50 plus to nil in a lot of games. Augustines didn't win an A competition in ISA last year in any age group.
 

Slugga

Ted Fahey (11)
'The ISA competition seems to be Augies, then daylight.'

Hugh Jarse
Oakhill did win all five games against CAS teams last year and beat Barker (1sts to 3rds) on the weekend. If its Augies and daylight where does that put the CAS?
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Well, ISA teams played CAS teams in 4 matches on Saturday. Augustines, Oakhill and Stannies defeated Waverley, Barker and Trinity respectively, while Alos defeated Pius.

Interestingly Knox and Cranbrook defeated Newington and Shore respectively (although both New and Shore are expected to struggle this year)
 

rtd32

Larry Dwyer (12)
Yes, but they were playing Augustine's who have less facilities and less students. Waverley would have more teams than Augustines. I've heard the same as ILTW, Waverley won 1 game out of 20 odd. They got close in a couple of others but scores of 50 plus to nil in a lot of games. Augustines didn't win an A competition in ISA last year in any age group.

I don't think Augustines field less teams though. I'm also under the impression that Augustines put a significant amount of their focus into first grade rugby and their rugby program - again, this contrasts my 'competing codes' theorem that is currently occurring in CAS schools.
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
That might make sense if their 1's won by 80 & the rest of the teams were well matched.
That wasn't the case last week,hence my question whist has happened to Rugby at Waverley.
I think Augustines have more soccer teams than Rugby teams.
 

Snort

Trevor Allan (34)
It is shaping up as a tough season for Waverley. Which doesn't mean they will be easy to beat - nor does it mean they're in terminal decline. Sensible analysts make judgments based on a large sample of data - not three weeks, and not even a single season. And, in this case, it's also worth pointing out that St Augustine's is rather a handy opponent.
 

RuggerHaz

Bob McCowan (2)
Moving on from the struggle of the Waves, the Trinity-Pats rivalry continues on Friday. Thoughts on the upcoming grudge match? #CASRugbyBaby
 

BRUMBIEJACK

Larry Dwyer (12)
Before we leave the current travails of Waverley, as a parent at the school I couldn't help but add my comments. Schoolboy rugby is cyclical and Waverley is no exception. The 16s have been poor the last two years (big soccer numbers in this years Year 11) so this should be reflected in the Opens. The current 15 and 16As are strong so this should feed into the Opens in the next two years. A previous writer had concerns that in his day Waverley used to go down to the 13Es but he doubted that was still the case. He's correct insofar as this is not still the case - they have 13Gs this year which means more than half the year is playing rugby.

The current headmaster is widening the educational focus at Waverley which is a good thing; last year a Waverley boy won a junior Archibald prize for example. While the focus may not be on sport as much, it doesn't mean that it's not a focus. I believe that Waverley has been runner-up in the rugby for the last three years running for example, which says something about consistency.

As a Christian Brothers school the philosophy is that the education should be open to as many people as possible, which is why the fees are a fraction of many of its opponents. Inevitably this means some poaching, but more realistically it means that what you get in Year 7 is pretty well what you get in Year 12 because it's a scholarship free environment. No Australian schoolboys will come in for a year or two, there won't be any ex-international coaches for the 1sts, no 'music scholarship' holders who are handy rugby players will magically appear in later years of school. Neither the money nor the inclination is there.

What that also means is that, while the school will often lack depth of talent they are normally able to put out a decent 1sts, because the boys know that (with the exception of Aloysius) it's not a level playing field in terms of finances or in some cases, size of student body. Nothing motivates boys at Waverley like playing against real or perceived privilege or advantage.

The more that resources are used to boost schools' rugby performances however, the more likely it is that Waverley will struggle to keep up. There simply aren't the resources to spare. The next year or two will possibly be hard for Waverley (but by no means certain) on the rugby field, but never underestimate them.
 

TheHitman

Bob McCowan (2)
It's interesting to see the dominance of ISA schools over CAS schools in the past few weeks. What does that say about the calibre of competition in this years opens? Also have these results influenced anyone's predictions for the CAS comp?
 

footylover101

Allen Oxlade (6)
It's interesting to see the dominance of ISA schools over CAS schools in the past few weeks. What does that say about the calibre of competition in this years opens? Also have these results influenced anyone's predictions for the CAS comp?
Probably not that indicative of much in terms of calibre of competition. The CAS has a fairly consistent degree of talent, however this year a Waverley team has been thrown together that is clearly struggling (I believe merely a result of 2 poor age groups as opposed to any other trend within the school). So naturally, a consistent powerhouse of Sydney rugby for a decade now in St Augustines smashed them.

Knox has just beaten Newington and lost in a tight match with Joeys.

As well as Cranbrook losing by a point to a strong Shore outfit, who had played a tight match with a young St. Aloysius side the week before.
Barker is naturally rebuilding after two years of premiership success, and in doing so lost to two of the 'Big 3' in the ISA in Oakhill and Stannies.

Trinity had its first match up of the season against a strong Stannies side and will almost certainly improve with the talent they have invested in.

Aloys lost closely to a strong Shore outfit and won 5 tries to 2 against SPX despite fielding a team involving 8 or 9 of their 2013 16A players.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
ISA still struggle to beat CAS at Opens representative level, even in those years that the top ISA schools have beaten the top CAS schools individually.

Something about the sum of the parts.

ISA probably fancy their chances this year, but June is a fair way off.
 

rtd32

Larry Dwyer (12)
A previous writer had concerns that in his day Waverley used to go down to the 13Es but he doubted that was still the case. He's correct insofar as this is not still the case - they have 13Gs this year which means more than half the year is playing rugby.


That might make sense if their 1's won by 80 & the rest of the teams were well matched.
That wasn't the case last week,hence my question whist has happened to Rugby at Waverley.
I think Augustines have more soccer teams than Rugby teams.


like i said I'm not an expert on the issue.

As for fielding down to a 13 G's side, that is both promising and impressive! Given that their opens have only gone down to 5ths in recent years this means that the juniors are fielding more teams across 1 year group than the opens are across 2.

I agree with Brumbie Jack in that troughs do occur within schools - if you look at 2009 results Barker college 1st XV came last, their 16s were pretty average, the 15A's came 3rd, and the 14A's also came 3rd - in fact, I think the only significant team that managed to win was their 2nds, and even then they were far from dominant. Only a year later and they win in 1sts and 16A's and their 15A's came 2nd - this massive trough was only the dawn of a period of domination, winning 3 premierships in the next 4 years.

In saying this, I sympathise with ILTW's concern in that it is an odd circumstance that all teams at Waverley seem to be suffering heavy defeats. I can't offer any greater insight than what I already have (especially since what I've already given seems to be flawed in many areas).
 
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