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CAS Rugby 2014

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rtd32

Larry Dwyer (12)
ISA still struggle to beat CAS at Opens representative level, even in those years that the top ISA schools have beaten the top CAS schools individually.

Something about the sum of the parts.

ISA probably fancy their chances this year, but June is a fair way off.


Usually the ISA trials are the first games that CAS schools play and many players are being compared as (as the name suggests) coaches trial certain combinations, player positions etc. One thing I tend to notice when I attend the Barker vs Oak Hill fixtures is that Barker usually win in the lower grades, and they usually win reasonably convincingly (I understand that this wasn't the case this year but there are exceptions to every rule). I also notice - more so in recent years - that the losing side in trials tends to be the one making more substitutions, obviously this rings true in instances where the sides are of equal or similar calibre.

For instance, I know that in 2012 the Barker team that played and lost to Oak Hill was completely different to their final starting line-up - with some of the players that started in this team being reverted down as far as 3rds, as their replacements had far outperformed them. This included the addition of such familiar names as Nick Burkett and David Smerdon, as well as the movement of Stolz to Inside Centre (where he seemed far more comfortable)... This wasn't the case for Oak Hill, with much of the side that played Barker staying in the starting line up - of course this is a one off example and doesn't necessarily mean that the outcome would have been different between the 2 sides if they'd played again. The point I'm making is that trials are no reflection of a teams true talent, nor are they an indication of how one representative side will perform against another or, better still, who will comprise those representative sides.

Another point I was making is that I think that you'll see a few changes to the Barker team that played Oak Hill last Saturday.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
don't think Augustines field less teams though. I'm also under the impression that Augustines put a significant amount of their focus into first grade rugby and their rugby program - again, this contrasts my 'competing codes' theorem that is currently occurring in CAS schools.

As far as I know Augustines only go down to Ds in 13s and 14s, Cs in 15s and Bs and some years Cs and only have 1sts - 3rds in opens. I'd be surprised if this was more teams than Waverley.

Basketball is by far the biggest sport at Augustines, followed by soccer and then rugby.
 

Insight

Stan Wickham (3)
'The ISA competition seems to be Augies, then daylight.'

Hugh Jarse
Oakhill did win all five games against CAS teams last year and beat Barker (1sts to 3rds) on the weekend. If its Augies and daylight where does that put the CAS?

Barker 1st on Oakhill in 2013 was 42-0 to barker
 

BRUMBIEJACK

Larry Dwyer (12)
Agreed I have also heard that Waverley is also loosing a number of applicants each year based on falling HSC results - any school can go through this trouble at some stage though


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Loosing ? How did you go in HSC English ?
 

BRUMBIEJACK

Larry Dwyer (12)
like i said I'm not an expert on the issue.

As for fielding down to a 13 G's side, that is both promising and impressive! Given that their opens have only gone down to 5ths in recent years this means that the juniors are fielding more teams across 1 year group than the opens are across 2.

I agree with Brumbie Jack in that troughs do occur within schools - if you look at 2009 results Barker college 1st XV came last, their 16s were pretty average, the 15A's came 3rd, and the 14A's also came 3rd - in fact, I think the only significant team that managed to win was their 2nds, and even then they were far from dominant. Only a year later and they win in 1sts and 16A's and their 15A's came 2nd - this massive trough was only the dawn of a period of domination, winning 3 premierships in the next 4 years.

In saying this, I sympathise with ILTW's concern in that it is an odd circumstance that all teams at Waverley seem to be suffering heavy defeats. I can't offer any greater insight than what I already have (especially since what I've already given seems to be flawed in many areas).


Undoubtedly this year's Waverley opens aren't a vintage rugby group and the smaller numbers won't help with depth. New coaches in the 1sts also need some time to adjust to the demands. It also has to be remembered that co-curricula activities also impact on trials results. For example, Waverley cadets only returned from their camp on Friday lunchtime which meant some were tired, but more importantly none of the teams had been able to train properly (given it's compulsory in Year 8 the 14s hadn't been able to train at all). many were also missing the previous Saturday for the trials against Cranbrook which would have impacted the age groups' results. Still, I believe the 15As won (could be wrong there) and the 16As were down 5-0 with 15-20 mins to go until the game was abandoned due to an injury to at St Augustine's lad. The cadet issue obviously didn't impact on the outcomes, but it would be interesting to see what the results would have been (particularly in the lower age groups) if St Augustine's had a week-long cadet camp for several hundred of their boys, came back on the Friday then had to get up and travel down to Queen's Park to play Waverley teams who were fresh and had trained as a team the previous week. Context is always king.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
Most lads have had a hit out or two.

Anyone ready to start pencilling in rep players for CAS I and II?

Returning to School in 2014
CAS I
6. Nick BURKETT ( B )
7. Jake PIERCE ( K )
9. Stephen KIRKBY ( B )
10. David SMERDON ( B )
13. Connor WATSON ( K )

CAS II

6. Jimmy WIDDERS-LEECE ( K )
7. George CORIAS ( T )
15. Rihann BARKLEY-BROWN ( T )

20. Brett VAN ZYL ( K )
22. Jordan BRACEWELL ( W )
23. Jack BASSETT ( W )

Injured v CHS I but played vs ISA
Hugh SUMMERHAYES (C)

Late Call up
Nick MAKKAS (C)

Seems to be lots of loose forwards and a lethal 9/10 combination. Some left fielders below. Fatties is wide open. Anyone help?
Light mobile aggressive pack.

1.
2. Jimmy WIDDERS-LEECE ( K )
3.
4. Hugh SUMMERHAYES (C) (c)
5. Brett VAN ZYL ( K )
6. Nick MAKKAS (C)
7. Jake PIERCE ( K )
8. Nick BURKETT ( B )
9. Stephen KIRKBY ( B )
10. David SMERDON ( B ) (vc)
11. Justin FISH (T)
12. Connor WATSON ( K )
13. Rihann BARKLEY-BROWN ( T )
14. Rory VEVERS (A)
15. Jack BASSETT ( W )

Some of these boys will be looking good for having a rugby holiday in the boarding houses at Riverview in the first week of July while they attend ASRU National Champs.
 

Slugga

Ted Fahey (11)
Usually the ISA trials are the first games that CAS schools play and many players are being compared as (as the name suggests) coaches trial certain combinations, player positions etc. One thing I tend to notice when I attend the Barker vs Oak Hill fixtures is that Barker usually win in the lower grades, and they usually win reasonably convincingly (I understand that this wasn't the case this year but there are exceptions to every rule). I also notice - more so in recent years - that the losing side in trials tends to be the one making more substitutions, obviously this rings true in instances where the sides are of equal or similar calibre.

For instance, I know that in 2012 the Barker team that played and lost to Oak Hill was completely different to their final starting line-up - with some of the players that started in this team being reverted down as far as 3rds, as their replacements had far outperformed them. This included the addition of such familiar names as Nick Burkett and David Smerdon, as well as the movement of Stolz to Inside Centre (where he seemed far more comfortable). This wasn't the case for Oak Hill, with much of the side that played Barker staying in the starting line up - of course this is a one off example and doesn't necessarily mean that the outcome would have been different between the 2 sides if they'd played again. The point I'm making is that trials are no reflection of a teams true talent, nor are they an indication of how one representative side will perform against another or, better still, who will comprise those representative sides.

Another point I was making is that I think that you'll see a few changes to the Barker team that played Oak Hill last Saturday.

Why do you think Oakhill's position was any different to Barkers? It was their first game too you know and they won the top three grades.

I have another theory. Barker were simply outclassed by Oakhill and they could mix the teams until the cows come home but the result would be the same, No excuses, the best teams won.
 

footylover101

Allen Oxlade (6)
Why do you think Oakhill's position was any different to Barkers? It was their first game too you know and they won the top three grades.

I have another theory. Barker were simply outclassed by Oakhill and they could mix the teams until the cows come home but the result would be the same, No excuses, the best teams won.
You need to take into account that Barker has just had a dominant team for the past two seasons, involving 2 Australian Schoolboys and less than 5 year 11 students.
What this means is that very few of these players have played together, including 3 who have been in the firsts side since year 10, meaning that the 3 best players have not played with their own age group since they were 15, and that Barker is trying to find combinations out of their other players, presumably from both their second XV and 16A side of 2013.
 

Slugga

Ted Fahey (11)
You need to take into account that Barker has just had a dominant team for the past two seasons, involving 2 Australian Schoolboys and less than 5 year 11 students.
What this means is that very few of these players have played together, including 3 who have been in the firsts side since year 10, meaning that the 3 best players have not played with their own age group since they were 15, and that Barker is trying to find combinations out of their other players, presumably from both their second XV and 16A side of 2013.


That dominant team you mentioned lost to Oakhill two seasons ago.

Oakhill also had an Australian schoolboy

Oakhill didn’t have three players in their third year of 1st xv, more of a disadvantage wouldn’t you think?

Oakhill also had a mixture of players that have never played together, happens every year when 16’s move into opens.

Oakhill is also trying to find combinations.

At the expense of upsetting you I have to say one thing Barker were good at (and I don’t mean the kids) was the moaning and bitching from the stands. (I thought I was at Chatswood oval.)

I don’t have to take any of this into account and nor should you, just cop it sweet ok?
 

casrugby12

Allen Oxlade (6)
Most lads have had a hit out or two.

Anyone ready to start pencilling in rep players for CAS I and II?

Returning to School in 2014
CAS I
6. Nick BURKETT ( B )
7. Jake PIERCE ( K )
9. Stephen KIRKBY ( B )
10. David SMERDON ( B )
13. Connor WATSON ( K )

CAS II

6. Jimmy WIDDERS-LEECE ( K )
7. George CORIAS ( T )
15. Rihann BARKLEY-BROWN ( T )

20. Brett VAN ZYL ( K )
22. Jordan BRACEWELL ( W )
23. Jack BASSETT ( W )

Injured v CHS I but played vs ISA
Hugh SUMMERHAYES (C)

Late Call up
Nick MAKKAS (C)

Seems to be lots of loose forwards and a lethal 9/10 combination. Some left fielders below. Fatties is wide open. Anyone help?
Light mobile aggressive pack.

1.
2. Jimmy WIDDERS-LEECE ( K )
3.
4. Hugh SUMMERHAYES (C) (c)
5. Brett VAN ZYL ( K )
6. Nick MAKKAS (C)
7. Jake PIERCE ( K )
8. Nick BURKETT ( B )
9. Stephen KIRKBY ( B )
10. David SMERDON ( B ) (vc)
11. Justin FISH (T)
12. Connor WATSON ( K )
13. Rihann BARKLEY-BROWN ( T )
14. Rory VEVERS (A)
15. Jack BASSETT ( W )

Some of these boys will be looking good for having a rugby holiday in the boarding houses at Riverview in the first week of July while they attend ASRU National Champs.
I think you have it wrong.
barkley brown should be 15 connor Watson 13 rory vevers 11 and jack or Justin 14.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
For example, Waverley cadets only returned from their camp on Friday lunchtime which meant some were tired, but more importantly none of the teams had been able to train properly (given it's compulsory in Year 8 the 14s hadn't been able to train at all)

I'm told that Augustine's Year 8 had also been at camp all week and unable to train, they still managed to win 60-0 in the 14As.
 

John Munroe

Frank Row (1)
As a EXTREME Rugby enthusiast i like to look at how much depth a school has, particularly a schools 3rd XV. I recently looked into The Knox grammar school 3rd XV. They are looking very strong this year, coming of the back of an undefeated season they have a healthy mix of fresh rookies and Veterans. They will be very tough to beat this year. Will post updates on other schools.
 

HowardL

Bob McCowan (2)
These are the final selected teams from last year (2013). Not the trial sides you put up. Your selections are unhelpful at this stage. It is impossible to predict who might be selected and unfortunate that you would start speculating before the teams have even had an official run.

These are copied from the CAS website as it stands.

Open CAS team to play GPS on Tuesday 18th June @ Knox 1 ( as of 17th June – 6.28pm )
1st XV – J McLean ( T ), N Koutsoukis ( W ), F Satui ( T ), B Heeney ( W ), L Akopian ( B ), N Burkett ( B ), B Van Zyl ( K ), R Powter ( W ), S Kirkby ( B ), D Smerdon ( B ), T Davis ( B ), D Stoltz ( B ), C Dove ( B ), E Ellwood-Hall ( B ), H Jones ( B ).
2nd XV – M Hooper ( W ), C Landry ( B ), P Cullen ( C ), H Middlebrook ( B ), P Kava ( W ), G Corias ( T ), H Summerhayes ( C ), T Hanson ( B ), B Whicker ( T ), B O’Donnell ( W ), J Paek ( K ), H Newby ( K ), O Nelson ( C ), J Bassett ( W ), R Barkley-Brown ( T ). Res - J Slack-Smith ( B ), J Horton-Patch ( C ), P Goodman ( K ), A Boulton ( K ), J Harvey ( C ), A MacDougall ( C ), C Ebeling ( T ) J Stals ( K ),

CAS Under 16 team to compete at the NSW U16 trials ( June 22 – 23 )
CAS 16s Squad:
Harry McLennan (T)Anthony Nguyen (T) Tom Hill (C)Will Stenmark (C) Sam Rodgers (B) Jacob Story (T) Will Stubbs (B) Harry Chapman (K) Dion Narayin (W) Robert Siteine (T) Alec Diamond (A) Henry Paterson (W) Jake Smirnotis (W) Jeffrey Winder (K) Tom Wilson (C) Res - Jordi Nikopoulos (A) Andy Lloyd (B) Alex Cole (K) Daniel Clarke (K)Oskar Szangolies (C) Cooper Murphy (W) Declan Quinn (C) Tom Dunlop (A)
 

footylover101

Allen Oxlade (6)
That dominant team you mentioned lost to Oakhill two seasons ago.

Oakhill also had an Australian schoolboy

Oakhill didn’t have three players in their third year of 1st xv, more of a disadvantage wouldn’t you think?

Oakhill also had a mixture of players that have never played together, happens every year when 16’s move into opens.

Oakhill is also trying to find combinations.

At the expense of upsetting you I have to say one thing Barker were good at (and I don’t mean the kids) was the moaning and bitching from the stands. (I thought I was at Chatswood oval.)

I don’t have to take any of this into account and nor should you, just cop it sweet ok?
Chill out.

I'm more concerned about why Barker is struggling early in the season as opposed to some rivalry with Oakhill.

I can imagine the Barker supporters would be bitching and moaning given they have enjoyed premiership success for the past two years.
 

rtd32

Larry Dwyer (12)
Why do you think Oakhill's position was any different to Barkers? It was their first game too you know and they won the top three grades.

I have another theory. Barker were simply outclassed by Oakhill and they could mix the teams until the cows come home but the result would be the same, No excuses, the best teams won.
Eh if you read the comment properly you'd understand that I agree with you. The best team on the day won. I was explaining why isa teams manage to beat cas teams individually yet their representative teams consistently fail to do so. Guess the better competition prevails and no matter how you change either side the result would remain the same? I find this slightly ironic given the amount of "bitching and moaning" I could post from the ISA 2012/13 forums in regards to representative selection for ISA.

The game you're referring to from 2 years ago didn't feature an Australian schoolboys player from oak hill but it did feature 1 from barker, as well as 2 other nsw selected players. Augustine's and oak hill are undeniably 2 very good sides but the first game of the season is not a great indication of what the score would be once each side had 10 games under their belt. For instance, I doubt oak hill would've lost 42-0 to barker in July last year. They probably still would have lost but I doubt they got worse over the season - comparatively barker didn't get much better after that game. I hope that explained things better
 

Snort

Trevor Allan (34)
Moving on from the struggle of the Waves, the Trinity-Pats rivalry continues on Friday. Thoughts on the upcoming grudge match? #CASRugbyBaby

I would think St Pats would fancy their chances. Trinity didn't look strong this year even before the match with St Stanislaus. To put that game in context, Trinity has lost to Stannies maybe once in the last seven or eight years - so a 14-42 loss is a pretty stark reversal of fortune. And, yes, I know it's a trial.

Last year Trinity had two exceptional front rowers and several useful players and still found the going tough. This year they have a very handy loose forward and a dynamic full back. And a brand new coaching team. They will have their moments but it will be a tough season for them.
 
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