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CAS Rugby 2014

Braveheart81

James Horwill (77)
Staff member
As I said in a previous post, I think the win was a good exemplar for the CAS as a whole. It showed that professionalising sports programs doesn't necessarily guarantee success, which hopefully might (but is probably unlikely to) cause some parents to ask why they're forking out buckets of money to pay for professional coaches that can't beat teams coached by teachers.

This is hardly tall poppy syndrome - it's simply an argument against the professionalisation of high school sports in the CAS because it's not a level financial playing field. Professionalising sports programs is obviously more open to some schools than others, and while it may make those schools feel good it does nothing for the viability of the CAS as a whole.

By the way, claiming that Knox is a tall poppy is also a bit of a misnomer; given they're currently 4-2 it's not exactly a stellar year so far. Particularly given the resources expended - not sure that the shareholders at Wahroonga would be that happy with the half yearly profit report.

At the same time, parents pay very large school fees for their children to go to these schools. They have amazing facilities (including the sporting facilities) so in my view, it makes reasonable sense to also have good coaches. If a school can't provide that internally from their teaching staffthen hiring some additional coaches isn't necessarily a bad thing. It is a far better and fairer route to improve a school's sporting ability than bringing in kids on sporting scholarships to bolster the ranks.

It has been said elsewhere, but some kids go to these private schools with sport as their biggest interest and are looking to become professional sportsmen after school. Why shouldn't the exclusive private schools try and cater to this?

I think you are exaggerating how much a professional coach versus the best coach a school can muster from within their teaching staff should influence a competition. At the end of the day, it's the same boys taking the field and competing.

At the end of the day, CAS or GPS schools aren't going to cater what they do to the lowest common denominator within their group. They're in the business of making their school the best it can be, not making sure everything is the same as their competing schools.
 

formerflanker

Peter Fenwicke (45)
I think you are exaggerating how much a professional coach versus the best coach a school can muster from within their teaching staff should influence a competition. At the end of the day, it's the same boys taking the field and competing.
Braveheart81 your thesis needs to expand past just the coach. With a professional rugby coach also comes a school-wide focussed approach to rugby. Additional training times, greater scientific analysis of training methodology, and a greater focus on pathways to rugby success. The full time 1st XV coach will be totally concentrating on the boys as rugby players and their rugby development. He does no teaching and hence can devote his off-field time to coaching preparation, reviewing/helping the younger age groups, and preparing resources.
The best teacher/coach will still have the restraints of a whole-student approach to sport and his own teaching load. He will be part of a school philosophy that sees rugby endeavours as just one element of the academic and personal development of each individual at the school. He will not have the luxury of time to watch match videos, provide one-on-one coaching, or develop new coaching drills. He will do these things of course but a lot of midnight oil is burnt.
If a teacher/coach is not doing the job out of love for the game and a desire for his students (not players!) to grow as young men first and rugby players second, he will burn out quickly due to the inherent inconsistencies of schoolboy rugby results.
Just a quick example to illustrate my point: during a close game, the professional coach will be influenced by the need for a win. He will constantly shout instructions from the sidelines. A teacher/coach will be more likely to reflect on the rugby lessons at half time and at the next session together. This way, the decision-making skills of the players, especially the on-field leadership group, will be enhanced by making decisions themselves in the heat of battle. This outcome may be at the expense of a win that day.
So Braveheart81, whilst it is still the same boys taking the field, they will do so with very different expectations riding on their shoulders and a different coaching philosophy supporting them.
Well, end of high-horsing for me. For those who have read so far, thanks for your patience.
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
That all sounds great theoretically.
In practical terms, you are fucking kidding about many coaches/ teachers being more concerned about life lessons than winning.
It would be interesting to see how many classes many teachers who are also 1st XV coaches actually do.
In any event, I have been told by parents that the new pro coach at Knox increased training sessions from 2 to 3 times a week.
There are GPS Schools,with an amateur (teacher) coaching that do 9 sessions a week.
Let's not even mention Schools that provide supplements,or build Hypoxic chambers etc etc.
Give me a pro coach in an amateur set up over an amateur coach in a pro setup every time in a Schoolboy environment.
 
S

sidelineview

Guest
Well said formerflanker; very true, but another point ........ wouldn't a school who would hire a full time rugby coach also recruit talented rugby players through scholarships?

How much of the equation includes recruitment ?
 

Braveheart81

James Horwill (77)
Staff member
I think you're making a leap to suggest that a first XV coach who is also a teacher is that much less driven than the professional coach and cares far less about winning.
 

Braveheart81

James Horwill (77)
Staff member
Well said formerflanker; very true, but another point .... wouldn't a school who would hire a full time rugby coach also recruit talented rugby players through scholarships?

How much of the equation includes recruitment ?

While we're on slippery slope arguments, why wouldn't the school that employs a professional coach be giving their players performance enhancing drugs and trying to cheat in other ways?

This is a ridiculous argument.
 
S

sidelineview

Guest
While we're on slippery slope arguments, why wouldn't the school that employs a professional coach be giving their players performance enhancing drugs and trying to cheat in other ways?

This is a ridiculous argument.


Why would anyone suggest that? and I haven't read about any 'cheating' accusations, just advantages/disadvantages. The discussion is about individual schools' sporting/rugby programmes. I'd still like to know how many sporting scholarships are granted by the individual schools.
This discussion started because the 'amateurs' Waverley defeated the 'professionals' Knox.
 

Rugby Addict

Herbert Moran (7)
Well said formerflanker; very true, but another point .... wouldn't a school who would hire a full time rugby coach also recruit talented rugby players through scholarships?

How much of the equation includes recruitment ?[/quote]

Personally I think it is great that the boys get the best possible coaching and if Knox can afford Matt Williams then good luck to them.

Are you suggesting that 4 of the boys (2,12,13,14) who turned up in year 11 at Knox and are now in CAS 1's are on rugby scholarships?

If they are that is a great success rate for their recruitment staff but not sure how much pleasure would be derived even if they were to win the CAS comp.
 

Braveheart81

James Horwill (77)
Staff member
Why would anyone suggest that? and I haven't read about any 'cheating' accusations, just advantages/disadvantages. The discussion is about individual schools' sporting/rugby programmes. I'd still like to know how many sporting scholarships are granted by the individual schools.
This discussion started because the 'amateurs' Waverley defeated the 'professionals' Knox.

Because you already made the leap that if they're employing a professional coach they're also bringing in kids on sporting scholarships. The two things are completely separate issues. That is the point I was making.
 
S

sidelineview

Guest
Well said formerflanker; very true, but another point .. wouldn't a school who would hire a full time rugby coach also recruit talented rugby players through scholarships?

How much of the equation includes recruitment ?

Personally I think it is great that the boys get the best possible coaching and if Knox can afford Matt Williams then good luck to them.

Are you suggesting that 4 of the boys (2,12,13,14) who turned up in year 11 at Knox and are now in CAS 1's are on rugby scholarships?

If they are that is a great success rate for their recruitment staff but not sure how much pleasure would be derived even if they were to win the CAS comp.[/quote]


Good luck to those 4 boys; they couldn't care less about these discussions; their job is to play the game and enjoy it. I'm not suggesting anything; I'm asking. If they were recruited on sporting scholarships, then good luck to them again. Or did they turn up in Year 11 because they/their parents were looking for better opportunities?

I'm simply inquiring (call me inquisitive), and not just about Knox but all CAS schools.
 
S

sidelineview

Guest
Because you already made the leap that if they're employing a professional coach they're also bringing in kids on sporting scholarships. The two things are completely separate issues. That is the point I was making.


It was a question, not an accusation as if it's a crime to offer talented rugby players scholarships. It's reasonable to assume that a school's well funded rugby programme would include recruitment via sporting scholarships.
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
Good luck to those 4 boys; they couldn't care less about these discussions; their job is to play the game and enjoy it. I'm not suggesting anything; I'm asking. If they were recruited on sporting scholarships, then good luck to them again. Or did they turn up in Year 11 because they/their parents were looking for better opportunities?

I'm simply inquiring (call me inquisitive), and not just about Knox but all CAS schools.
Poor choice of words or Freudian slip?
If it's their job,then they shouldn't be there.
 

rugbyfanatic91

Stan Wickham (3)
Cas 1s going down to ISA 35-33.
Cas 2s defeating country 38-8.
Any reports on the games? standouts? possible NSW selections?
Cheers fanatic.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
No more talk on scholarships.

There is a thread for discussing those.

Consider this to be a General Yellow Card warning issued to all.

With the NSW Schoolboys to be announced tonight, there will be some happy boys, families, and supporters, and some disappointed ones. Keep the chatter friendly, and in accordance with the Schoolboys Forum rules.
 

CatchnPass

Vay Wilson (31)
I'd like to know the same thing SLV, hoping that the outcome is nil. But perhaps we will need to raise it on the thread that can't be named. I will say that in some considerable time monitoring that thread there had been little if any evidence of the dial-a-team practice infiltrating CAS. Here's hoping I'm not simply naive.

[edit] apologies HJ - just caught your response. Happy to continue 'over there' if indeed there is anything to continue
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
NSW Schools Selections have been announced.

There has been a problem with the Schools Website but the squads will be up soon.

Congratulations to the following CAS boys who were selected:

NSW 1
14. Wing Connor WATSON , Knox Grammar/CAS
16. H James WIDDERS-LEECE , Knox Grammar/CAS
20. BR Hugh SUMMERHAYES , Cranbrook/CAS
21. Half Stephen KIRBY , Barker/CAS
22. IB David SMERDON , Barker/CAS

NSW 2
6. BSF Nick BURKETT , Barker/CAS
12. IC Joe WILLIAMS , Knox/CAS

Shadow

4. RL Lachlan SWINTON , Knox
7. OSF Jake PIERCE , Knox
8. No 8 Brett VAN ZYL , Knox
10. Fly half Sam RENTON , Cranbrook


With the Combined States team to be announced on Monday, some of the Shadow's may move up.
The Injury Fairy may still cause some adjustments to be made to the teams.

Stay fit, listen to your coaches and enjoy footy.
 
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