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CAS Rugby 2014

Open Side

Bob McCowan (2)
I'm a recent Forum follower and this is my first post.
I've read a lot of comments here about the supposed weakness in Waverley's Rugby talent in this year's 1st & 2nd XV teams.As a Waverley Dad,former player and Level 2 Coach I'd like to provide some facts and highlight the true issues.
The talent is there and has always been there...however,the Coaching Program (or lack thereof) is quite weak this year.
In 2008, Waverley Prep 1sts were UNDEFEATED including a victory over Riverview who have developed into a strong GPS 1st XV team.That Waverley team is now in Yr 12. A lot can change in 6 seasons.
Players from that talented team who have since left Waverley for various reasons include:
Connor O'Shea - St Josephs (Aust Schools 2014 Flyhalf)
Jacob Ticehurst - St Josephs (Track & Field Athlete & Winger)
Matt Serhon - Newington (NSW 2's 2014,NSW 1's 2013 Hooker / Prop)
Nick Makas - Cranbrook (CAS 1sts 2014 No: 8)
Will Ball - Newington (GPS Blue 2014 Winger / Full Back)
Michael Kambas - Newington 1st XV / 2nd XV Winger / Centre)
Nick Carroll - Cranbrook (CAS 2nds 2014 Centre)

Also 2 players who would have been in Yr 11 had they stayed at Waverley:
Charlie Smith - Scots (Aust Schools 2014 No 8 / Back Row)
Tom Wright - St Josephs (NSW 2nds 2014 Winger / Full Back)
# So,serious Rugby talent has left Waverley from this Age Group Cohort.

Not only has there been a player drain,the Coaching for this Age Group was quite poor especially when the boys played in the 13A,14A and 15A teams. Improvement came when Scott Coleman Coached the 16A's in 2012 and he did a good job. However, much of Scott's good work came undone with diabolical Coaching from two "long term & tired" 2nd XV Coaches last year.One of those Coaches was promoted to 1st XV this year,which defied logic and has frustrated many players (and parents).
Waverley have also experienced considerable loss of good Senior Coaching talent in recent years ie
Matt Barr - ex 1st XV Coach is now Southern Districts 1st Grade Coach
Paul Cornish - ex Wallaby & Waverley 1st XV Coach ...15A's Coach 2014
Dane Inman - ex Randwick Centre ...now MIC Rugby Riverview
Hugo Engele - ex Forwards Coach now Sportsmaster at Trinity Grammar
Chris McBride - ex Waverley Forwards Coach ......at Peakhurst High School
Andrea Folli - Ex MIC Rugby is now MIC Rugby at Trinity Grammar
Pat O'Shea - ex HOD & Clovelly Club Coach is now MIC Rugby at Joeys
# Scott Coleman - no full-time job at Waverley,is now teaching at Joeys

Added to this is the Rugby League factor. The current 1st XV Coaches favour several young Backs from Yr 10 and Yr11 who have a strong League background.These boys have certain skills but do NOT have any real understanding of how to play Rugby Union,how to re-cycle possession, build phases,take the tackle,body position,long place, set up.
Nor are they being coached effectively to get that Rugby understanding. Hence,in matches they revert to what they know best ...kick downfield, try to get a repeat set of 6,chip kick,cross field kick and hope for the best.This unstructured play appears to be endorsed & tolerated by the Coaches ...
I feel for the Forwards who have battled to win decent ball this year... only to see the Backs continually kick possession away at random....There is little evidence so far of any structured Attacking plans in the matches played so far.Example: One winger has still not received the ball yet from a simple passing movement across the backline (in 7 games). The 3 recent wins have seen some improvement in intensity & came from determined efforts from the Forwards & gutsy defense....not from any game plans.Sadly the perception appears to be .....if you wear Roosters gear to training .....you'll be selected in Waverley 1st XV.

Talented Rugby players still attend Waverley in this year's Yr 12 group. They are frustrated and feel the School Program has really let them down compared to other years. Examples:1) The annual Rugby Tour to Canberra in April and Coaching from AIS Specialist Coaches didn't go ahead this year.2) Waverley didn't have a Trial game during the recent July break... whilst it seemed every other School did and the Waves boys were unfit & rusty when they played the Cranbrook game.3) Efforts to donate a much needed Scrum machine by the Parents & Supporters Club have been resisted by 1st XV Coaches...due to concerns where to locate the unit !!
Difficult to accept this when you see how poor the 1st & 2nd XV Scrums have been.4) Offers from experienced Parents to assist with Coaching have also been knocked back........??????
5.Waverley's 2nd XV appears to be an afterthought......whilst many Schools focus on both the 1st & 2nds as a unified Squad.....Waverley only focus on the 1sts.So,when injuries to 1sts players occur Yr 12 2nd XV players are often ignored for a Yr10 / Yr 11 League player.
So,spare a thought for the current Yr 12 players who have had to endure all of this in their final year in Waverley's colours. I hope they move onto Colts & Grade Rugby where they will benefit from and enjoy strong Club programs.
 
An interesting read 'Openside'; enlightening in many ways. You do make some good points, however, you've lost me on a couple.

Hence,in matches they revert to what they know best .kick downfield, try to get a repeat set of 6,chip kick,cross field kick and hope for the best.This unstructured play appears to be endorsed & tolerated by the Coaches .
I feel for the Forwards who have battled to win decent ball this year. only to see the Backs continually kick possession away at random.

This is an exaggeration and quite cynical; I'm not sure how many games you've watched this season but there hasn't been a helluva lot of kicking ...'continually kick possession away at random' ?? I can only think to the Cranbrook game; there were a few too many chip kicks towards the end, but the game was lost by then and the Cranbrook defence was pretty solid. I didn't mind that when a kid tries something different; when it pays off he's a genius; when it doesn't he's ill disciplined, badly coached and unstructured. Cranbrook kicked more than Waverley and did kicked possession away too often.
There was a nice chip and regather last Saturday from one of the young Rugby League players (who has also played Club rugby). That kid won the Barker's players game ball and he was wearing the Double V jumper. Another young Rugby league player (a winger who has also played club rugby) put in a long grubber kick and very nearly scored from it. Not 'hope for the best' kicks, but calculated and well executed. Kicks that showed flair and confidence and paid off or nearly paid off. Apart from clearing kicks, I think there were only 4 kicks in general play last Saturday from Waverley. Barker kicked more.


Next.

The 3 recent wins have seen some improvement in intensity & came from determined efforts from the Forwards & gutsy defense..not from any game plans.Sadly the perception appears to be ...if you wear Roosters gear to training ...you'll be selected in Waverley 1st XV.

What a croc of .... 'some improvement'??!! 46-0 to 19-15 vs Barker; 58-31 to 12-10 vs Knox. 'determined efforts from the forwards & gutsy defence'. You underestimate courage and determination? you mustn't have seen the way the backs defended against Knox; they were brilliant. (but some of them play league and wear Roosters gear to training so therefore they're not really good enough to play 1sts) .. ! that's funny. I think they did have a game plan that day; it seemed to have worked. Some of the boys do play Harold Mats or SG Ball for the Roosters, meaning they must be only talented at league? Aren't the basic skills similar? catching, passing, tackling? other schools have league players as well... I get your point but you go too far with the rant.

Next

So,when injuries to 1sts players occur Yr 12 2nd XV players are often ignored for a Yr10 / Yr 11 League player.

I can understand some people supporting a policy that year 12 boys should play ahead of year 11 and 10 players, but maybe the coaches choose the best players as replacements because they want to win (I suppose).. Knox had two U16s and Barker had one U16s play last Saturday.

You do make some very good points, but it sounds like your judgement is clouded through your need to grind an ax while chewing on sour grapes.
Your cynicism neglects to applaud along with many other people, that the Waverley 1sts have improved out of sight this season to be equal 3rd now.
I would hazard a guess and say the recent success of the 1sts has lifted spirits in the school.
 

Kilgore Trout

Herbert Moran (7)
knox can't handle good defence. if cranbrook maintain their sublime defence it will be an interesting and close game

Knox has lost two games - one by three points and one by two. They have convincingly won all the others and by large margins. The defence by Cranbrook was first class but to simplify the Knox losses to "can't handle good defence" is unwarranted. I didn't see the Waverley game but the Cranbrook classic could have gone either way.
 

Ncfooty

Bob McCowan (2)
That's an interesting Hypothetical suggestion Open Side. Considering the players you mentioned, you can only guess Waverley's 1st XV would look something like this had those boys stayed.

1. Picone
2. Serhon
3. McKennar
4. Carr
5. Cooper
6. Makas
7. Cardasalaris
8. Smith
9. Naryan
10. O'Shea
11. Ticehurst
12. Paterson
13. Carroll
14. Kambas
15. Wright

That's a lethal looking side with 4 NSW representatives, 2 of whom are Australain Schoolboys and most of whom you would assume to be CAS reps. You can only imagine what could have been with a devastating side like that and a coach who knows what he's doing.

Considering several of those boys are in year 11 and Waverley has a promising U16s age group, it would have been a dominant few years for Waverley.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Ncfooty to Openside

That's a lethal looking side with 4 NSW representatives, 2 of whom are Australain Schoolboys and most of whom you would assume to be CAS reps. You can only imagine what could have been with a devastating side like that and a coach who knows what he's doing.

Considering several of those boys are in year 11 and Waverley has a promising U16s age group, it would have been a dominant few years for Waverley.


The what if's ...... it's a shame to have lost those players but they would have been offered scholarships to the GPS schools no doubt and Waverley can't compete with that.

I have no comment on the Waverley coaching but I know the whole team (players and coaches) were being mercilessly bagged before the Knox game, even though they had beaten Aloys the week before, and look what happened ... the players will never forget that win; not a bad victory against Barker either.

You can only do your best with what you've got.
 

SonnyDillWilliams

Nev Cottrell (35)
Waverley have also experienced considerable loss of good Senior Coaching talent in recent years ie
Matt Barr - ex

Talented Rugby players still attend Waverley in this year's Yr 12 group. They are frustrated and feel the School Program has really let them down compared to other years. Examples:1) The annual Rugby Tour to Canberra in April and Coaching from AIS Specialist Coaches didn't go ahead this year.2) Waverley didn't have a Trial game during the recent July break. whilst it seemed every other School did and the Waves boys were unfit & rusty when they played the Cranbrook game.3) Efforts to donate a much needed Scrum machine by the Parents & Supporters Club have been resisted by 1st XV Coaches.due to concerns where to locate the unit !!
Difficult to accept this when you see how poor the 1st & 2nd XV Scrums have been.4) Offers from experienced Parents to assist with Coaching have also been knocked back....??????
5.Waverley's 2nd XV appears to be an afterthought..whilst many Schools focus on both the 1st & 2nds as a unified Squad...Waverley only focus on the 1sts.So,when injuries to 1sts players occur .

Wow ...amazed at how many of current crop of good schoolboy players did a stint at Waverley

... you raise some issues that seem like good points ... you are obviously a keen observer, and no doubt you have good intentions .... and maybe some of those things are reflected on / acted on

... however have to stick-up for the current coaches in respect of a few things

firstly many of the ex-coaches you named (not all) have left chasing the dollars ... and I totally get that teachers need to look after their families ... but the teachers/coaches who have remained, yes they might have made some mistakes, got some noses out of joint, but they have to take some credit for the awesome turn around this season... even more amzing when you see the player losses .... and heck at the end of the day these guys are still there ...and they haven't sold out

I recently took my kids to see Hercules, and I loved that line, that refers to Hercules (The Rock), when he abandons his mercenary ways... something along the lines of "be afraid of the man who hasn't a price, as he can't be bought" ... so for the teachers/coaches of Waverley, who probably aren't getting rich quick, good-on-ya.

and the real shame is that Waverley doesn't get a crack at the likes of Joeys and Scots ....
 

SonnyDillWilliams

Nev Cottrell (35)
... and those Waverley coaches it is not like the school is throwing the resources at them ... the school's focus is first and foremost on getting better HSC marks ...

...the Waverley MIC of Rugby, John McCoy seems like he is doing a good job too ... amazing how just putting in a good word about the kid that played his heart out in the 13Fs, in the school newsletter, can pay dividends ..
 

Michael Farley

Frank Row (1)
Knox has lost two games - one by three points and one by two. They have convincingly won all the others and by large margins. The defence by Cranbrook was first class but to simplify the Knox losses to "can't handle good defence" is unwarranted. I didn't see the Waverley game but the Cranbrook classic could have gone either way.
Yes i may have shown exaggeration but I'm sure we can compromise that good defence has the momentous potential against knox.
 
. and those Waverley coaches it is not like the school is throwing the resources at them . the school's focus is first and foremost on getting better HSC marks .

.the Waverley MIC of Rugby, John McCoy seems like he is doing a good job too . amazing how just putting in a good word about the kid that played his heart out in the 13Fs, in the school newsletter, can pay dividends ..


....and Scott Coleman is there at Waverley helping out with the coaching of the 1sts and doing a great job.
 

oldboy59

Stan Wickham (3)
the 1st and 2nds scrum for Waverley may not be that good, but the 16A's scrum is lethal. I have seen most games and they have pushed every team back this season.
 

Open Side

Bob McCowan (2)
sidelineview...my comments weren't intended as a League v Union thing.I played both codes into my early 20's and then stuck with Union.Both my sons played League as well. My youngest son played for a Roosters Junior club.

I've watched every Waverley game this year and we'll have to disagree on the over use of kicking by some Waverley players.One stands out as the main offender...its not your bloke.

Some examples:

v Barker at Queens Pk (46 -0 loss)
Several of Barker's tries came from good counterattack returning misjudged kicks from the same Waverley player. The Barker players were actually joking about it during and after the game.

v Knox at Queens Pk (12 -10 win)
The 2 Knox tries came after Waverley sent misdirected kicks downfield and they attacked at pace through their backline.Pretty sure the Knox tries were scored by their 2 centres....or the Hooker got one (he's as fast as most Centres).Overall Waves defense was very good in this game.... Knox did get over the line a few times but were denied points.Great win.

v Cranbrook at Hordern (24-12 loss)
Waverley competed really well & were leading in this game but gave vital possession away by poor kicking in the 2nd half.Waverley didn't win a Lineout in the first half ...and then won only 2 Lineouts in the 2nd half. So,when you're team is leading...but you're not winning the Lineouts ... why kick for touch or near touch especially into that strong headwind ?
Good Lineout ball is the best opportunity for a slick Backline to attack from. Possibly some stronger messaging from Coaches & Captain might have steadied the ship ??
Cranbrook scored 3 tries to nil ...and the one next to the posts was from pretty soft Defense.
For much of this game,Waverley were the better team and I reckon if they controlled the ball more they would have taken the win.

v Barker at Barker (19-15 win)
I reckon Waverley left 2 - 3 tries out on the field because they kicked too much.Other spectators at the ground expressed the same thoughts. When they took the line on & retained possession they were able to score the winning try with 4 - 5 minutes remaining.
Barker had 5 key players out and a reshuffled Backline....but still a gutsy Waverley win.

# Waverley should get a tape of the game between Barker 3rds and the Japanese team (Kasegwei ??) The smaller Japanese team won easily ie 34 -17 and did NOT kick the ball once.Not once. Every player in this team were committed to running the ball,wide passing,running straight,support play and great teamwork.Great to see.

Kicking is fine if its in the team game plan and everyone knows when and where on the field it's going to happen.....& the designated chasers know when to expect the kick. An effective chase & tackle creates potential turnover ball or a penalty.Everyone has to be on the same page.

What I'd really love to see is the Waverley Backline function more as a unit and back themselves more with the ball in Attack.The young guys have pace and skill & I'd like to see them put into space & showing their ball running more in the next 2 games.
 

sammyburgess

Stan Wickham (3)
Kicking is fine if its in the team game plan and everyone knows when and where on the field it's going to happen...& the designated chasers know when to expect the kick. An effective chase & tackle creates potential turnover ball or a penalty.Everyone has to be on the same page.

this type of kicking game was on show against aloys in the second half. where a planned box kick 1 phase off the kick off was executed, waves flooded the break down, took a quick tap, ran the field and 1 phase later scored. They did this again off the following kick off and wouldve probably scored if not for a knock on. At the moment its sounding like your slamming waves and the coaching staff for not having any game plans and not exhibiting any knowledge of the game. 3/4 of the team are excellent rugby players who have played rugby since childhood and have extensive knowledge of how to play it. There are of course the select few who a lacking in game-sense, but this does not mean they are completely ill-informed about how to play the game.

The player you are referring to who repeatedly kicks possession away is a yr 10 student who is only 15 or 16. Obviously more capable coaches would have corrected this by now but this player is still a young rugby player who can be taught plenty.

It is coming off as if your a exaggerating the weaknesses while disregarding the strengths of this waverly team. I seriously think there was even talent in this year group to potentially have threatened a title chase, if given a proper pre-season program.
 

Snort

Vay Wilson (31)
this type of kicking game was on show against aloys in the second half. where a planned box kick 1 phase off the kick off was executed, waves flooded the break down, took a quick tap, ran the field and 1 phase later scored. They did this again off the following kick off and wouldve probably scored if not for a knock on. At the moment its sounding like your slamming waves and the coaching staff for not having any game plans and not exhibiting any knowledge of the game. 3/4 of the team are excellent rugby players who have played rugby since childhood and have extensive knowledge of how to play it. There are of course the select few who a lacking in game-sense, but this does not mean they are completely ill-informed about how to play the game.

The player you are referring to who repeatedly kicks possession away is a yr 10 student who is only 15 or 16. Obviously more capable coaches would have corrected this by now but this player is still a young rugby player who can be taught plenty.

It is coming off as if your a exaggerating the weaknesses while disregarding the strengths of this waverly team. I seriously think there was even talent in this year group to potentially have threatened a title chase, if given a proper pre-season program.

No. They don't have the tight forwards to do this, and in two games they never looked like breaching Cranbrook's defence. This year's group was never going to be in the hunt for a premiership. But all credit to them for redeeming their awful start.
 
this type of kicking game was on show against aloys in the second half. where a planned box kick 1 phase off the kick off was executed, waves flooded the break down, took a quick tap, ran the field and 1 phase later scored. They did this again off the following kick off and wouldve probably scored if not for a knock on. At the moment its sounding like your slamming waves and the coaching staff for not having any game plans and not exhibiting any knowledge of the game. 3/4 of the team are excellent rugby players who have played rugby since childhood and have extensive knowledge of how to play it. There are of course the select few who a lacking in game-sense, but this does not mean they are completely ill-informed about how to play the game.

The player you are referring to who repeatedly kicks possession away is a yr 10 student who is only 15 or 16. Obviously more capable coaches would have corrected this by now but this player is still a young rugby player who can be taught plenty.

It is coming off as if your a exaggerating the weaknesses while disregarding the strengths of this waverly team. I seriously think there was even talent in this year group to potentially have threatened a title chase, if given a proper pre-season program.


The player in question is not the 15 year old; he doesn't repeatedly kick possession away and is not the main kicker in the team. It's another player, but let's not forget they are all young and need direction.
 
Openside

I agree it is annoying to see players kick possession away but not all kicks are bad, especially when a team can't penetrate through running the ball. The Waverley backline has improved and looked more confident to run it last Saturday vs Barker.

vs Barker at Queens Park. yes, you could argue there was too much kicking, but not all the kicks were bad. There were some good bombs and kicks to the corners in that game. Overall outclassed but you can't pin it down to kicking. How about all the other aspects of the game that the coaches and players have worked on.

vs Knox at Queens Park. One try was scored from a clearing kick within the 22 that didn't find touch. I can't recall the other 'misdirected kick' but I suppose they could be forgiven for some sins that day. As I mentioned the defence of the backline was excellent against some very talented players and much improved from the previous game; they obviously worked on the defensive structure of the backs. The attack was much improved as well; they scored two tries. Great win; we agree on something positive.

vs Cranbrook at Hordern. Even though Waverley was ahead for most of the game, they played poorly and yes there was too much kicking.... desperation and lack of confidence; i'm not sure why. Yes, tactically it was a mistake to kick for touch when you're not winning the lineouts. something else to learn for the young punters. That was a forgettable game. Cranbrook scored two tries from clearing kicks that didn't find touch. A positive is they played bad and still tested Cranbrook.

vs Barker at Barker. Waverley had 2 players out and played well. They did make some mistakes but ...... there may have been one unnecessary kick from a young player but there were a couple of excellent kicks as well. They didn't kick too much in this game; be fair. They gave too many penalties away but they got their act together and played well in the second half and won. Barker defended well, so credit where it is due. Left 2-3 tries out there? in a perfect world with perfect players ......

You have downplayed every achievement Waverley has chalked up this season and highlighted negatives. You're a hard marker. Barker had 5 out ... injuries hit every team.
You'll be able to find negatives in the last two games as well.
They're schoolboys learning and they've improved out of sight and they're probably all on a high and good luck to them. I think it's called being happy.
Hopefully they finish the season off well.
 
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