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DPK

Peter Sullivan (51)
let's start with the red tactic of running to their man in an offside position basically causing an obstruction, beau robinson doing exactly what you accuse richie of doing, ie taking out players illegally, coming in from the side etc, will genia not knowing that the ball is supposed to go backwards...just a few to moll over. regardless, the result will be as it always is, Oz will talk themselves up and never deliver. 100 years of dominance tells me this.

It's fine to say all that shit, but you haven't provided any evidence of them doing that.

Nobody is going to change their mind with that sort of rubbish.
 

cyclopath

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Staff member
Although I suggested this thread, sort of, it had better run in a "good" way. If it looks like becoming a slanging match, it will disappear up its own fundament.
 

DPK

Peter Sullivan (51)
If you stop rolling yours, you might be able to do the same for a change.
 

waratahjesus

Greg Davis (50)
i agree with kiwi rugby fan, the reds pushed the rules this year and got away with it, (as all teams do at times) we bitch and moan about the all blacks doing it, they do, and every time a player playing opposite a team i support does it i will have a good whinge about it. its called supporting a team.

there is no innocent party in rugby, only right and wrong, its why i'm thankful as an aussie i was born on the side of right.

its mostly grey areas, i dont think it needs to be debated, this is an aussie website and in being so and especially in a world cup year, Richie is evil.
 

kiwi_rugby_fan

Frank Nicholson (4)
i agree with kiwi rugby fan, the reds pushed the rules this year and got away with it, (as all teams do at times) we bitch and moan about the all blacks doing it, they do, and every time a player playing opposite a team i support does it i will have a good whinge about it. its called supporting a team.

there is no innocent party in rugby, only right and wrong, its why i'm thankful as an aussie i was born on the side of right.

its mostly grey areas, i dont think it needs to be debated, this is an aussie website and in being so and especially in a world cup year, Richie is evil.

lol...i dip my hat to you
 
W

What2040

Guest
shit, I thought that's why the game needs referees - otherwise would be like mour tax system - self assessment - that works yeah right
 

Scarfman

Knitter of the Scarf
As I've said a thousand times, I felt that the ABs were (are) approaching the breakdown in a certain way that involved extensive use of offside and pillars. I wanted to bring attention to that, and I was very successful. It has been watched by 60,000 people including, I know for a fact, a bunch of South African refs.

If it needs to be said: Richie is still among the best players in the world (although no longer the best), and Australia has a few guys who push the laws in the same way - Saia Fainga'a, I'm looking at you.

My point - one more time for the muttonbrains - was about offside and pillars at the breakdown, and the fact that quite a few refs just weren't policing it. That's it.
 
J

Jay

Guest
It's fine to say all that shit, but you haven't provided any evidence of them doing that.

Nobody is going to change their mind with that sort of rubbish.

I've no strong opinions on the Robinson claim, but the flat passes of Genia & Cooper go forward far too often for it to be coincidence. I wouldn't say it's deliberate cheating, but IMO it's a case of deliberately pushing the boundaries and knowing that they'll get away with it more often than not. Which is basically what McCaw (and Pocock, Brousoww, Smith and every other openside in the modern era) does that leads to people calling him a cheat.
 

Scarfman

Knitter of the Scarf
On the original thread of this discussion, Jay questions my knowledge of what constitutes a ruck. Stickybeak answered the question but Jay ignored this information and came back with some irrelevant nonsense. If you read my YouTube comments, you will find a whole lot of angry kiwis insisting that I don't understand when a ruck is formed. "A ruck hasn't formed, so he is not offside" they scream at me. For example - the actions of Smith in the first try. "A ruck hans't formed, so there's no offside line." Quite frankly, the mind boggles, and I wouldn't know where to begin to try to explain the rules of rugby to them.
 
J

Jay

Guest
On the original thread of this discussion, Jay questions my knowledge of what constitutes a ruck. Stickybeak answered the question but Jay ignored this information and came back with some irrelevant nonsense. If you read my YouTube comments, you will find a whole lot of angry kiwis insisting that I don't understand when a ruck is formed. "A ruck hasn't formed, so he is not offside" they scream at me. For example - the actions of Smith in the first try. "A ruck hans't formed, so there's no offside line." Quite frankly, the mind boggles, and I wouldn't know where to begin to try to explain the rules of rugby to them.

I was specifically referring to the incident at 1:40. You say "Owen Frank & Keven Mealamu just hitting a ruck from the Springbok side". When Franks arrives, it's JDV & McCaw both still on their feet. How does Owen Franks hit the ruck if there isn't one?

And, in comparing the actions of Mealamu & John Smit at that ruck - which of them actually enters the ruck from the wrong side?
 

cyclopath

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Staff member
I agree with a lot of the analysis with that video with a caveat. Offside pillars are a blight, and a long-term bugbear of mine. So too the random players flying through (often round the side) of a tackle / developing ruck then ending up on the wrong side interfering with defenders. A clean out is fine, but it has to come from on-side, and once you are unbound beyond the ball / last feet, you are offside. End of story.
The caveat? It is endemic among top teams. Scarfy's video showed some egregious examples of the ABs doing things. Of course Aus, SA, English, French etc... players do it. It never gets discussed rationally because too may Aussies keep repeating the "cheat" mantra, and too many Kiwis hyper-ventilate and go on about everyone doing it, and the impending canonisation of Richie McCaw. It doesn't matter if everyone does it, if you think it is marring the contest, which I think it does.
I think the Kiwis are at the forefront in innovation, and I mean this in a complimentary way. They do this better than anyone, and it shows. And I think the fact that they are very consistent in the way they play allows them to "get away with it" more than other teams who do it less well, and less consistently. It's less obvious. It reflects good coaching, and smart playing. Ian Jones made a good point last night that if you get players over the top of the ball, or beyond it, you are more likely to win the battle of the ref (and that the ABs do that well), conceding that the breakdown near the AB line when Rallepelle was tackled was some pretty cynical stuff. It is up to the refs to sort this stuff out. They are the villains, not the ABs, or anyone else.
 

Scarfman

Knitter of the Scarf
I guess I don't agree, cyclo. When you say that "Kiwis are at the forefront in innovation" I agree with the factuality but not the sentiment. I think offside and pillars are terrible, awful, innovations and the refs should stamp it out of the game. I think the game would be better for it. Believe me, whenever Fainga'a gets his arse belted when he's "accidentally" loitering offside, I will be thinking "suck!".
 

cyclopath

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Staff member
I guess I don't agree, cyclo. When you say that "Kiwis are at the forefront in innovation" I agree with the factuality but not the sentiment. I think offside and pillars are terrible, awful, innovations and the refs should stamp it out of the game. I think the game would be better for it. Believe me, whenever Fainga'a gets his arse belted when he's "accidentally" loitering offside, I will be thinking "suck!".

But that's what I think too. I think I clearly said I dislike those things too. The refs should fix it. I say "innovation" because they work out what they can do, and do it well, better than anyone. That is good coaching, and clever playing. I don't subscribe to the theory from some that the ABs get a free armchair ride knowingly from officials. I do, however, think Paddy O'Brien was a complete waste of space as refs boss.
 
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