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COVID-19 Stuff Here

Braveheart81

James Horwill (77)
Staff member
And this is exactly my point.
People are being told that to just earn a living - and not a fucken great one at that - will be subject to them having them giving up their rights about what they put in their body.

Their argument to the point above is that if you have the vaccine and I don’t, then you should be safe.

It creates risk for everyone; other staff, patrons and employers.

You don't have to do that job. Jobs that involve interaction with a lot of other people are prime candidates for requiring vaccination.
 

Bullrush

John Thornett (49)
It creates risk for everyone; other staff, patrons and employers.

You don't have to do that job. Jobs that involve interaction with a lot of other people are prime candidates for requiring vaccination.
That doesn’t change the argument. Everyone who wants to can get vaccinated, wear face masks, socially distance etc which should give them the best protection from a virus which has a 2% chance of killing them. The argument is why are people who don’t want the vaccine being forced to get it to live as they have for the last 100-odd years.

Because it’s not just work. Going to the movies, going out to eat, travelling interstate etc - a lot of things that have been just a part of everyday life will become a lot more difficult unless you give up the right about putting drugs in your body.

As I said, I’ve already had the first shot but I get why people don’t like being forced to do something where the risk doesn’t seem to justify giving up rights over their body.
 

Pfitzy

David Wilson (68)
Going to the movies, going out to eat, travelling interstate etc - a lot of things that have been just a part of everyday life will become a lot more difficult unless you act in the interests of the greater good

Fixed.

I get your point that there are people who don't want to vaccinate. I do.

However, I do not get why people would refuse the vaccine. Really it is getting ridiculous, given the options, that anyone able to take it should refuse.

If there are people who don't want the vaccine because (reasons) then they are free to live in lockdown forever more. The consequences of their decision should suit them perfectly.

TBH if the majority of us are vaccinated then they're probably the ones most at risk in a society, BUT that holds true right up until their decision affects someone who can't get the vaccine despite desperately wanting to e.g. immunocompromised, the very young, people allergic to vaccine ingredients etc. Not to mention medicla staff who have to treat someone for what is essentially a preventable illness.

If that is the hill they want to die on, then perhaps they should take a horse-sized dose of Ivermectin and find a hill somewhere to - literally - die on.

Darwinism at its finest.

EDIT: I wonder what the overlap is between people who don't want/trust the COVID vaccine and those who call hippies in Nimbin stupid for getting measles.
 

Bullrush

John Thornett (49)
The ‘greater good’?

Basically this is just about money and the world economy. If the greater good was such a driving imperative, our governments would have acted more swiftly and decisively on climate change a long time ago.
 

Bullrush

John Thornett (49)
BH literally answers the question in the quote.
It doesn’t.

If you’re vaccinated and I’m not, what is my threat to you?

You may catch Covid but given you’re vaccinated the risk is a lot lower and the chances of you being seriously sick or dying are even lower. You can be vaccinated and give me the virus. I carry most of the risk - which is the individual choice.

But because I don’t want to put drugs in my body which have no long-term effect studies, I can no longer work the job I have done for years, can’t take my wife to dinner, can’t travel etc

I see the problem that some people have with being forced to vaccinate and there doesn’t seem to be a great argument against it
 

Tex

Jim Lenehan (48)
Nah that's not a good comparison. CC has become a distal issue for most, with the worst ravages being higher prices and insurance premiums, or David Attenborough tear jerker docos.

COVID will see scores of people dying in a highly politicised arena, fed by a rapid press and vulnerable back bench politicians. We can't buy 'COVID credits' (/carbon credits) and offshore the problem like we try to do with climate change.
 

Bullrush

John Thornett (49)
Nah that's not a good comparison. CC has become a distal issue for most, with the worst ravages being higher prices and insurance premiums, or David Attenborough tear jerker docos.

COVID will see scores of people dying in a highly politicised arena, fed by a rapid press and vulnerable back bench politicians. We can't buy 'COVID credits' (/carbon credits) and offshore the problem like we try to do with climate change
That's exactly what I'm saying.

The only reason the 'greater good' of climate change hasn't been a driving issue is because it will cost money (higher prices, premiums carbon pricings etc). Covid is basically halting the world economy which is the real reason behind the 'greater good' argument. Money.
 

Derpus

John Eales (66)
It doesn’t.

If you’re vaccinated and I’m not, what is my threat to you?

You may catch Covid but given you’re vaccinated the risk is a lot lower and the chances of you being seriously sick or dying are even lower. You can be vaccinated and give me the virus. I carry most of the risk - which is the individual choice.

But because I don’t want to put drugs in my body which have no long-term effect studies, I can no longer work the job I have done for years, can’t take my wife to dinner, can’t travel etc

I see the problem that some people have with being forced to vaccinate and there doesn’t seem to be a great argument against it
The threat isn't to me (directly). The threat is to those who are also unvaccinated (for example, immune-compromised people as mentioned above) and to the medical system as a whole (which indirectly affects me).

The decision not to get vaccinated burdens the rest of us. Increased burden on the medical system, cost of lockdowns etc. You can be reductive if you want, but it's not a legitimate position. And yes, it will and is costing all of us money.
 

Braveheart81

James Horwill (77)
Staff member
That doesn’t change the argument. Everyone who wants to can get vaccinated, wear face masks, socially distance etc which should give them the best protection from a virus which has a 2% chance of killing them. The argument is why are people who don’t want the vaccine being forced to get it to live as they have for the last 100-odd years.

Because it’s not just work. Going to the movies, going out to eat, travelling interstate etc - a lot of things that have been just a part of everyday life will become a lot more difficult unless you give up the right about putting drugs in your body.

As I said, I’ve already had the first shot but I get why people don’t like being forced to do something where the risk doesn’t seem to justify giving up rights over their body.

The argument about not wanting to take something that has many thousands of times less risk than the disease it is trying to prevent is ridiculous. These people are making a dumb choice. There's no two ways about it.

Clearly this is a very different situation to anything we have faced before. The argument that you could do all these things without a vaccine beforehand are irrelevant. It's a new situation. We have previously enforced vaccination for access to some government benefits so it isn't entirely new ground.

People aren't literally forced to but the reality is that they will be opting out of a lot of elements of society they have previously had access to. This has already happened in plenty of locations and I'd be very surprised if we don't follow suit.
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
And this is exactly my point.
People are being told that to just earn a living - and not a fucken great one at that - will be subject to them having them giving up their rights about what they put in their body.

Their argument to the point above is that if you have the vaccine and I don’t, then you should be safe.
I see you paid attention on the lesson about rights.
you should have hung around on the one about responsibility.

they go together.
 

The_Brown_Hornet

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
It's a thorny issue to be sure. I don't need to be convinced about all the upsides of vaccination and have indeed had my second jab today. I'm pro-vaccination all the way. However, I still believe it should be a personal choice, unless we're talking about dragging people out of their homes and sticking needles in their arms. To the best of my knowledge we've never done that in Australia and shouldn't start now. I think we should go no further than saying to people that if you're not vaccinated that you have to take alternative precautions. Those situations should be very carefully enumerated though.

There will always be people who will for whatever reason resist getting vaccinated and at the risk of being callous, unless they have allergies or other medical conditions that prevent vaccination, they can live or die by those decisions. I'll continue to vaccinate myself for the sake of my own health and that of the people around me. I can't do anything about those who won't.
 

Derpus

John Eales (66)
It's a thorny issue to be sure. I don't need to be convinced about all the upsides of vaccination and have indeed had my second jab today. I'm pro-vaccination all the way. However, I still believe it should be a personal choice, unless we're talking about dragging people out of their homes and sticking needles in their arms. To the best of my knowledge we've never done that in Australia and shouldn't start now. I think we should go no further than saying to people that if you're not vaccinated that you have to take alternative precautions. Those situations should be very carefully enumerated though.

There will always be people who will for whatever reason resist getting vaccinated and at the risk of being callous, unless they have allergies or other medical conditions that prevent vaccination, they can live or die by those decisions. I'll continue to vaccinate myself for the sake of my own health and that of the people around me. I can't do anything about those who won't.
No one is saying it won't be a personal choice. They just won't be able to go to a lot of places/do a lot of things if they don't.

They will probably ease those restrictions after a few years of endemic Covid, anyway. I can't imagine they will be checking our Covid vax certs at the door to the local in 5 years time.
 

Braveheart81

James Horwill (77)
Staff member
The easiest way they could get a big bump in vaccinations among people who are being hesitant is to start laying out that future pathway.

Announce that all hospitality (pubs and eat-in dining) will be open to vaccinated people only and that gyms will also be vaccinated people only.

They're about the most obvious things.
 

Dctarget

Steve Williams (59)
My girlfriend got 2 x pfizered back in June in France. They were going to night clubs and music festivals and had to show the vaccine passport at entry. Now they've upgraded it to take any train or plane, or visit a cafe you have to have the vaccine passport. I dragged her out to Australia and now she's stuck in indefinite lockdown. But I suspect we'll be doing what France does just 6 months later. Scomo won't have the balls to make it government mandated though.
 

Brumby Runner

Tim Horan (67)
I do have a nagging doubt about the long term effects of the various vaccines, given that their development and use has occurred over a shortish period (remember Thalidomide), but I am pro-vaccination, due to have the second jab next Monday.

My bigger concern atm is how will any concessions allowed for fully vaccinated people be policed? The present Medicare certificate or whatever form it takes apparently can be counterfeited in a matter of hours. I imagine pretty much whatever form proof of vaccination might take, there will be others who can and will get around it without much trouble (and probably make a bundle in the process). Probably a bit much to expect the local bar or restaurant manager to physically eject anyone suspected of improperly being on the premises. What about policing restrictions on (say) public transport or going to a rugby match? Or attending religious events? Potentially, many areas of dispute in front of us yet.
 

Derpus

John Eales (66)
I do have a nagging doubt about the long term effects of the various vaccines, given that their development and use has occurred over a shortish period (remember Thalidomide), but I am pro-vaccination, due to have the second jab next Monday.

My bigger concern atm is how will any concessions allowed for fully vaccinated people be policed? The present Medicare certificate or whatever form it takes apparently can be counterfeited in a matter of hours. I imagine pretty much whatever form proof of vaccination might take, there will be others who can and will get around it without much trouble (and probably make a bundle in the process). Probably a bit much to expect the local bar or restaurant manager to physically eject anyone suspected of improperly being on the premises. What about policing restrictions on (say) public transport or going to a rugby match? Or attending religious events? Potentially, many areas of dispute in front of us yet.
Its actually pretty easy to break most laws and not get caught. Just have to hope the disincentive is sufficient to regulate most peoples behavior.
 

Pfitzy

David Wilson (68)
My bigger concern atm is how will any concessions allowed for fully vaccinated people be policed? The present Medicare certificate or whatever form it takes apparently can be counterfeited in a matter of hours.

"Dear criminal person: I'd like to pay you to get me into the pub while I risk the health of myself and others, rather than take this free vaccination".

Gotta say, if there are people out there in that frame of mind, we're better off without them.
 

The_Brown_Hornet

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
My girlfriend got 2 x pfizered back in June in France. They were going to night clubs and music festivals and had to show the vaccine passport at entry. Now they've upgraded it to take any train or plane, or visit a cafe you have to have the vaccine passport. I dragged her out to Australia and now she's stuck in indefinite lockdown. But I suspect we'll be doing what France does just 6 months later. Scomo won't have the balls to make it government mandated though.

I'm not sure we should make it government mandated, but rather empower venues or businesses to say there are conditions of entry, rather like we do in other situations (dress or behaviour codes to cite some trivial examples).
 

The_Brown_Hornet

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
No one is saying it won't be a personal choice. They just won't be able to go to a lot of places/do a lot of things if they don't.

They will probably ease those restrictions after a few years of endemic Covid, anyway. I can't imagine they will be checking our Covid vax certs at the door to the local in 5 years time.

Agreed, once it becomes that widespread in our community it will become like the seasonal flu.

In terms of your first point, as I said in another post we should be able to allow private venues to say vaccination is a condition of entry.

My point about mandatory vaccination enforced by the government is that I've seen more than one article, opinion poll or quote suggesting that we should make it mandatory for everyone and what's more, make masks mandatory for the foreseeable future. Now the people advocating for this are nutcases in my view, but they are out there and I don't want them getting to decide for the rest of us.
 
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