COVID-19 Stuff Here

[formerflanker]

My last contribution to the Wuhan Flu debate here: if the pandemic is the virus of the unvaccinated, then why (a) are the two cases of Omicron in Israel both fully vaccinated? One with AstraZeneca; the other with three (yes three) Pfizer shots. And (b) The first case in the United States has been reported. You guessed it, fully vaccinated. Also, (c) Patients admitted to hospital with Covid in the UK in the four weeks from mid-October to mid-November; Total 9,174; unvaccinated 3071, vaccinated 6103. (Yes a higher rate among the unvaxxed but it is the vaxxed who are filling up hospital beds.)

Thanks to the mods who provide a unique space for robust debate on this issue, a facility I don't see anywhere else. For example, I'm a subscriber to The Australian and most of what I write here is censored by their mods if i try to put the same arguments.

I've made my point (to the laughter of many ) and will leave it at that. The statistics and information I've used have been sound in my view and re-hashing the same ground isn't going to change anyone's mind. I've enjoyed the to-and-fro but disappointed I didn't win any hearts or minds.

I'll be back if I get an opportunity to conclusively prove 'I told you so".

So it's back to the cycle of Rugby. Get excited about a new season for the 'Tahs, fork out good cash to watch them, hang onto hope because of the return of Hoops and the appointment of a successful Shute Shield coach - and watch the season go south, and be in this position again in 12 months time. Ever the optimist and anti-mandatory vaxx crusader, I live in hope that This is Our Year.

 

[I like to watch]

 

[Tex]

It's not schadenfreude & yes most of them are deluded & scared & it's all very sad but choices have consequences. That particular guy doesn't strike me as scared but he's sure as shit deluded & hell-bent on spreading that delusion which would of course have also spread the very disease he's denying. Empathy is a wonderful thing but there are limits.

I mean my own schadenfreude. Agree with you mate, but still can't extinguish all the empathy in me.

 

[Tex]

Some fun reading for you non Mexicans. You might have seen news about mass protests in Melbourne over the last month. Essentially, the loose coalition of antivax, vaccine hesitant, anti government, far right, hippy, kook and libertarian has been protesting ostensibly against the Andrews Government's new pandemic management laws.

The existing powers were due to sunset on 15 December, leaving the state with no legal basis to manage public health controls such as hotel quarantine, mandates and all the other extraordinary powers they've had under the Public Health and Wellbeing Act.

The pandemic bill empowers the Premier to declare a pandemic, rather than the Chief Health Officer, plus a range of other powers. The Government's first attempt failed due to poor stakeholder management in the upper house, and the second attempt secured the votes it needed with some beefing up of oversight.

Anyway, the kooks aren't happy with democracy right now.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/it-feels-like-the-end-of-democracy-protesters-deflated-as-bill-passes-20211202-p59e2d.html

 

[dru]

Anyway, the kooks aren't happy with democracy right now.

Hey Tex. I do think that at the right time (which is not now), the process that a government leans on powers to greatly restrict the population - needs to be considered and debated. It has been necessary in a pandemic but opens to possible future abuses. Not to mention that there have been both over-reaction and under-reaction on our way through. On the one hand those restrictions should not be able to be sustained without oversight and control. On the other, modern adversarial party politics backed up with ineffective Houses of review (Senates) controlled by minority interest, often leaves the government of the day unable to govern effectively.

Freedom issues are obscured by these protesting kooks who make it very murky to be able to discuss rationally.

Back to the science: For those who may be interested, this woman and scientist (Sharon Peacock) has a fascinating back-story and has been driving part of the scientific response in the UK.

BBC Radio 4 - The Life Scientific, Sharon Peacock on hunting pandemic variants of concern

Leading the UK's hunt for new and dangerous Covid-19 variants.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Braveheart81]

if the pandemic is the virus of the unvaccinated

Because these are the people that are dying and filling ICUs and hospitals at a far higher proportion than people who have been vaccinated.

Outside of the elderly and those with severe medical conditions who are still at risk even when vaccinated, COVID has essentially become an annoyance for people who have been vaccinated. If they contract it they will likely suffer few or no symptoms and will recover quickly.

You have an incredibly strange approach to medicine and healthcare. Pretty much nothing in medicine is 100% effective but your preference is if the medication on offer isn't 100% effective you'd prefer nothing.

 

[zer0]

My last contribution to the Wuhan Flu debate here: if the pandemic is the virus of the unvaccinated, then why (a) are the two cases of Omicron in Israel both fully vaccinated? One with AstraZeneca; the other with three (yes three) Pfizer shots. And (b) The first case in the United States has been reported. You guessed it, fully vaccinated. Also, (c) Patients admitted to hospital with Covid in the UK in the four weeks from mid-October to mid-November; Total 9,174; unvaccinated 3071, vaccinated 6103. (Yes a higher rate among the unvaxxed but it is the vaxxed who are filling up hospital beds.)

Thanks to the mods who provide a unique space for robust debate on this issue, a facility I don't see anywhere else. For example, I'm a subscriber to The Australian and most of what I write here is censored by their mods if i try to put the same arguments.

I've made my point (to the laughter of many ) and will leave it at that. The statistics and information I've used have been sound in my view and re-hashing the same ground isn't going to change anyone's mind. I've enjoyed the to-and-fro but disappointed I didn't win any hearts or minds.

This is clearly a subject that is deeply meaningful to you as borne out by your impassioned commentary throughout this near 200 page thread. Thus, as a sign if respect, I have prepared a similarly thoughtful, and comprehensively researched, point-by-point rebuttal.

If the pandemic is the virus of the unvaccinated, then why (a) are the two cases of Omicron in Israel both fully vaccinated? One with AstraZeneca; the other with three (yes three) Pfizer shots. And (b) The first case in the United States has been reported. You guessed it, fully vaccinated.

Also, (c) Patients admitted to hospital with Covid in the UK in the four weeks from mid-October to mid-November; Total 9,174; unvaccinated 3071, vaccinated 6103. (Yes a higher rate among the unvaxxed but it is the vaxxed who are filling up hospital beds.)

The statistics and information I've used have been sound in my view...

 

[Braveheart81]

Patients admitted to hospital with Covid in the UK in the four weeks from mid-October to mid-November; Total 9,174; unvaccinated 3071, vaccinated 6103. (Yes a higher rate among the unvaxxed but it is the vaxxed who are filling up hospital beds.)

I haven't checked your figures to verify those numbers but even so.

Over 80% of the 12+ UK population is fully vaccinated.

So if the number of hospitalisations in the period you have referenced is correct then that still means you are more than twice as likely to be hospitalised if you are unvaccinated versus vaccinated.

What would be more telling is looking at deaths and ICU patients because we know those numbers are even more skewed towards unvaccinated people getting very sick or dying.

 

[Sword of Justice]

The rebuttals mounted against FFs statements are all based in fact as far as I'm aware and I thank posters for explaining the concepts more skilfully than I could.

However, the reference to the Wuhan flu and the overall belligerence leads me to believe there's no point engaging any further. He himself has stated he's leaving the topic alone for a while and I sincerely hope that is true.

Now please allow me to hypocritically engage with FF (Folau Fainga'a) and note that what was acceptable 100 years ago regarding language is rightfully not now in many cases especially seeing as COVID 19 is a sound name based in science meaning coronavirus disease 2019.

 

[boyo]

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Imagine being the groom-to-be who's had to postpone his wedding on account of him & his mates isolating for 10 days after visiting a "location of interest" during their stag-do trip from the West Coast to the bright lights of Nelson. Do you tell your future bride the LOI was (a) the servo where you refuelled & grabbed some pies & V's for the drive home; or (b) the TAB & bar where "I swear, babe" you spent the night before; or (c) the "Gentleman's Club" down the road from said TAB & bar & hope she's the understanding type & doesn't care that her big day has been ruined & it's made the papers? I'm guessing you'd have to consider whether she has access to your credit & debit card statements...

Wedding postponed after stag party visits Covid-19 location of interest

A West Coast groom had one last hurrah as a single man with his friends in Nelson. They are now in self-isolation - and the wedding is on ice.

www.stuff.co.nz

 

[fatprop]

What would be more telling is looking at deaths and ICU patients because we know those numbers are even more skewed towards unvaccinated people getting very sick or dying.

With pretty well all the ancients and "at risk" types likely to have been vaccinated those figures will be skewed as well

With or without covid, they were the next likely to die anyway.

 

[Braveheart81]

With pretty well all the ancients and "at risk" types likely to have been vaccinated those figures will be skewed as well

Yep. The statistics for unvaccinated vs vaccinated for under 60 year olds in reasonable health or better are incredibly stark. Basically zero chance of dying if you are vaccinated.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

It seems that with the vaccines we've taken something that puts older members of the population at serious risk to essentially protecting the vulnerable in the space of 12 months. I think that's pretty remarkable.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

A week into the "traffic light" system & the vaccine passes that underpin it things seem to be going pretty well: still a few people claiming it's all too confusing & of course the "freedom" mob were out & about on Saturday trampling on the freedom of others to do exactly what they themselves could've done (Saturday morning cricket in the Auckland Domain, Christmas shopping downtown, maybe a coffee & avo on toast at a cafe on Ponsonby Rd). Newmarket Retailers Ass'n estimate it cost their members $600K in lost sales, most shops shit the doors 'cos no one could get near the place & the motorway signs were telling people to,avoid the area.

Case numbers appear to be coming down: two weeks ago the seven-day average was 187, last week 125 & today 103. Hospitalisations also tracking down & there's never more than six to eight people in ICU on any given day. Nation-wide first dose rate is within sight of 90% but it's still patchy with a dozen of the 66 LGA's under 80% & several communities within those Districts well under 75%.

 

[Brumby Runner]

With pretty well all the ancients and "at risk" types likely to have been vaccinated those figures will be skewed as well

With or without covid, they were the next likely to die anyway.

Fast being overtaken by dimwits who drive into flood waters.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Case numbers in NSW and Vic seem to be on the rise again. Any details of how the hospitalisations, ICU rates and deaths are trending?

 

[dru]

Case numbers in NSW and Vic seem to be on the rise again. Any details of how the hospitalisations, ICU rates and deaths are trending?

Still trending down, but they follow, don't lead.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Auckland & everywhere else bar Northland (the least-vaccinated of the 20 Health districts & containing two of the six least-vaccinated LGA's) moves from Red to Orange at midnight on 30/12 which means NYE can go ahead with no venue limits where vaccine passes are used & makes it all but certain the various music festivals can also go ahead. Will no doubt suck to be unvaxxed on NYE but, meh, I'm well over their selfishness.

 

[Tex]

I don't know. The Europeans are shitting the bed about it - cases doubling every three days, already the dominant variant in the UK.

I guess by now we know we can watch the northern winter and plan carefully for the Australian winter peak in six months...right?