Did Wallabies' 2011 EOYT hurt Aus Conf 2012 S15?
- Thread starter RedsHappy
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The 2011 EOYT only finished a week later than the 2010 EOYT.
I know we played lots of games at the RWC but our EOYT was also much shorter.
In my opinion it is more a coincidence than a cause of our current Super 15 problems.
I know we played lots of games at the RWC but our EOYT was also much shorter.
In my opinion it is more a coincidence than a cause of our current Super 15 problems.
Slim 293
Stirling Mortlock (74)
There were many players who were already broken before or during the RWC like McCabe, Elsom, Vickerman, Quade...
The entire starting XV that played against Wales in the last game of the EOYT are currently running around except for Turner:
1. Kepu
2. TPN
3. Maafu
4. Simmons
5. Horwill
6. Higginbotham
7. Pocock
8. McCalman
9. Genia
10. JOC (James O'Connor)
11. Ioane
12. Barnes
13. Horne
14. Turner
15. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
The entire starting XV that played against Wales in the last game of the EOYT are currently running around except for Turner:
1. Kepu
2. TPN
3. Maafu
4. Simmons
5. Horwill
6. Higginbotham
7. Pocock
8. McCalman
9. Genia
10. JOC (James O'Connor)
11. Ioane
12. Barnes
13. Horne
14. Turner
15. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
Kepu is playing pretty well.
TPN is playing better than he did at the RWC/EOYT.
Ma'afu is playing well at The Force.
Higgers is in great form.
Pocock is in his usual terrific form.
AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)'s play has been improving and you'd now have to say his form is quite good.
Horwill's form is average.
JOC (James O'Connor)'s form is average.
Barnes isn't playing as well as he did on the EOYT however he is always a better test player than S15 player.
Horne's form is below average.
Simmons form is rubbish.
Genia's form is rubbish.
Ioane is obviously sitting out at the moment and McCalman is due back this weekend to my knowledge.
TPN is playing better than he did at the RWC/EOYT.
Ma'afu is playing well at The Force.
Higgers is in great form.
Pocock is in his usual terrific form.
AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)'s play has been improving and you'd now have to say his form is quite good.
Horwill's form is average.
JOC (James O'Connor)'s form is average.
Barnes isn't playing as well as he did on the EOYT however he is always a better test player than S15 player.
Horne's form is below average.
Simmons form is rubbish.
Genia's form is rubbish.
Ioane is obviously sitting out at the moment and McCalman is due back this weekend to my knowledge.
The Red Baron
Chilla Wilson (44)
Yeah, I don't know. The EOYT could have been the straw that broke the camel's back.
Now I know that we usually go on an EOYT, and a week here, a week there shouldn't make a difference. However, lets not forget that the Super Rugby season was expanded by about a month last year.
It will be interesting to test the hypothesis of the effect of the EOYT on super rugby form. To do that we will need to compare results of the Kiwis and Saffas the season after they embark on an EOYT. Only then will we have some empirical evidence regarding the effect of an EOYT on Super Rugby form.
Now I know that we usually go on an EOYT, and a week here, a week there shouldn't make a difference. However, lets not forget that the Super Rugby season was expanded by about a month last year.
It will be interesting to test the hypothesis of the effect of the EOYT on super rugby form. To do that we will need to compare results of the Kiwis and Saffas the season after they embark on an EOYT. Only then will we have some empirical evidence regarding the effect of an EOYT on Super Rugby form.
rugbysmartarse
Alan Cameron (40)
interesting to note from the injury wiki that the aus super squads have a higher than average number of injuries, with only the highlanders and lions really at the same level of players out. What is striking though is the injuries to the tahs and reds in partiicular seem to be to top line players, whereas many of the other temas have injuries to fringe players. Based on a 5 minute read through though I cant find any real correlation between the EOYT and the injury list - so I guess our form slump in super rugby is mainly, as we all suspected, attitude and application
Bowside
Peter Johnson (47)
I think TPN's form is a myth.
He is no doubt a good bloke, but I dont think he has been consistently performed since 2009. His line-out throwing is still problematic, and he breaks down at every stoppage which kills a lot of the flow of the game. This might be a tactic by the waratahs to slow the game down and I sort of hope it is because at international level the last thing the wallabies want is a slow game.
He is no doubt a good bloke, but I dont think he has been consistently performed since 2009. His line-out throwing is still problematic, and he breaks down at every stoppage which kills a lot of the flow of the game. This might be a tactic by the waratahs to slow the game down and I sort of hope it is because at international level the last thing the wallabies want is a slow game.
I agree that he isn't anywhere near his best, but I still think his current form is better than it was at the RWC/EOYT.
He has definitely required less injury time per match than he did last season. It has only been once or twice a game this year.
He has definitely required less injury time per match than he did last season. It has only been once or twice a game this year.
MajorlyRagerly
Trevor Allan (34)
I think he looks fat.
kiap
Steve Williams (59)
The workload has not been even for these players, though. The guys who played pretty much straight through last year like Genia, Horwill, Simmons (and I would include AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)) would be paying a bit of a toll IMO.
N
Newter
Guest
It's a good thing Ian Prior and others have come through. Rest and rotate for the Wallabies this year is now an option.
Bardon
Peter Fenwicke (45)
It's hard to say if the tour is really the reason for loss of form by some players. If it was you would expect the same to have happened to the Wales players who were also having to play for their clubs in Pro12 and HEC. The Welsh players had a dip in form post world cup for their clubs but kicked on after the Autumn international culminating in a 6Ns GS. Also Cardiff Blues made this weekends HEC QFs.
Maybe for some players fatigue is a factor, but as mentioned some players were injured during the WC. But I don't think it's a blanket reason for all Aus players losing form.
Maybe for some players fatigue is a factor, but as mentioned some players were injured during the WC. But I don't think it's a blanket reason for all Aus players losing form.
kiap
Steve Williams (59)
NZ is a better yardstick for Australia, rather than the opposite season NH sides.
The Blues and Crusaders supplied the bulk of the ABs for 3N and RWC tests. Even with no EOYT, their players have stuggled a bit so far like the Reds and Tahs (or in the case of the Reds, struggled a lot).
RedsHappy
Tony Shaw (54)
This is categorically NOT a 'Reds excuse' but I do think, as some have said above, for the elite players that had to play: a full, newly elongated 2011 S15, then the full S15 Finals round, then a shortened 3N, then a full RWC, then, almost straight after that, travel to the UK, train, play two demanding games there, then return, that is a very full rugby playing load for a calendar year. And it's not just the physical demands, mental burn out from more or less continuous pressure at this level, is just as big a factor. Neither Horwill nor Genia (for example) have looked as sharp as they were up to July 2011, I think both have been deteriorating in subtle ways ever since the S15 Final.
If we turn to this year's schedule, it's almost as bad: the elongated S15, 4 home Tests in the middle, then more S15, then a newly extended 4N with travel spanning SA and Sth America and back, then a final Bled in mid-October, then 4 NH EOYTs.
What's remarkable to me about all this is the ARU's obvious attraction to $ income generation through more and more top games per annum (and the very likely related impact on player injury rate, mental burn out, etc.) but, in stark contrast, it is hell bent on 'cost savings' via the ridiculous 30 man S15 team constraints and then the equally dysfunctional salary cap. These latter policies simply reduce the size and calibre of the feeder stock available to both S15 coaches and, importantly, Wallaby ones who have to deliver high performance across an expanding number of countries and Tests. This irrational and ill-constructred economic and player investment imbalance is demonstrably perilous for all of: player health, the viability of our S15 teams, and the viability of the Wallabies having adequate, S15-experienced numerical depth of the right calibre to cope with an expanded games roster.
New equation: increased short-term total $ gate income, but more injuries per player group, lowered win-loss ratio through too-shallow player feedstock systems, disillusioned fans through low trophy count, senior 'must use' players incur incremental mental burn-out.
If we turn to this year's schedule, it's almost as bad: the elongated S15, 4 home Tests in the middle, then more S15, then a newly extended 4N with travel spanning SA and Sth America and back, then a final Bled in mid-October, then 4 NH EOYTs.
What's remarkable to me about all this is the ARU's obvious attraction to $ income generation through more and more top games per annum (and the very likely related impact on player injury rate, mental burn out, etc.) but, in stark contrast, it is hell bent on 'cost savings' via the ridiculous 30 man S15 team constraints and then the equally dysfunctional salary cap. These latter policies simply reduce the size and calibre of the feeder stock available to both S15 coaches and, importantly, Wallaby ones who have to deliver high performance across an expanding number of countries and Tests. This irrational and ill-constructred economic and player investment imbalance is demonstrably perilous for all of: player health, the viability of our S15 teams, and the viability of the Wallabies having adequate, S15-experienced numerical depth of the right calibre to cope with an expanded games roster.
New equation: increased short-term total $ gate income, but more injuries per player group, lowered win-loss ratio through too-shallow player feedstock systems, disillusioned fans through low trophy count, senior 'must use' players incur incremental mental burn-out.
RedsHappy
Tony Shaw (54)
I'm glad of the workload protection, annual leave rights and such like for our players under the RUPA agreement. All good.
My point is if you want to expand the number and time proximity of top level games played per annum (which the ARU clearly does and has), then, in logical sequence, you must also expand (pro rata or more) the quantity and quality of the player feedstock available and capable to play them. If you don't, the consequence will be a decline in the quality of play, increasing injuries and the problems that imposes, mental burn-out, and, for all these reasons, a lowered chance of winning the main trophies.
My point is if you want to expand the number and time proximity of top level games played per annum (which the ARU clearly does and has), then, in logical sequence, you must also expand (pro rata or more) the quantity and quality of the player feedstock available and capable to play them. If you don't, the consequence will be a decline in the quality of play, increasing injuries and the problems that imposes, mental burn-out, and, for all these reasons, a lowered chance of winning the main trophies.
Bullrush
John Hipwell (52)
Which in turn leads to lower viewers, lower memberships and lower interest in general....which in turn leads to less $$......... why are they playing more Tests again??!?
Bruce Ross
Ken Catchpole (46)
Our international level players are either playing or preparing to play almost year round. They do not have the opportunity to enjoy an off-season to repair and rehabilitate their bodies or to do the all-important work of restoring or building strength. This means that basic heavy strength work must be incorporated into training while in playing mode. If this is neglected the inevitable consequence is a progressive de-training effect where the players lose strength and muscle bulk. This in turn puts them at a significant disadvantage in what is the most strength-oriented football code and makes them much more susceptible to injury.
Despite my best endeavours and pig-headed persistence in writing about it, the lack of recognition of the need for heavy strength training during season means that the worrying incidence of injuries and loss of form of senior players is likely to be an ongoing problem.
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Despite my best endeavours and pig-headed persistence in writing about it, the lack of recognition of the need for heavy strength training during season means that the worrying incidence of injuries and loss of form of senior players is likely to be an ongoing problem.
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RedsHappy
Tony Shaw (54)
Yes indeed Bullrush, thanks for keeping this line of thought going to its correct end-point: the potential vicious circle of decline Aus S15 and Wallaby rugby could get itself into unless we are very, very careful to balance the expansion, fitness and quality of good players with the many more games we expect them to play. (FWIW, I believe that we are already in a version of this vicious cycle, the early phase. Just look at the tremendous injury count in Aus S15 this year, and its consequences. Add to this argument the obvious fact that Deans/ARU took a number of our elite players to the last RWC in a non-fit state, and then played them heavily, and they wore down or out quickly: Elsom, Mitchell, Palu, TPN, Vickerman...and QC (Quade Cooper) had not stopped all year, broke down at the end...Genia and Horwill look mentally worn out to me...and so on.)
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