England - 6N Squad

[Lee Grant]

Part I

Last week interim England coach, Stuart Lancaster, named a 32 man training squad, though others have joined it since because of current injuries to nominated players:

Forwards (18):
Props: A Corbisiero, D Cole, J Marler, M Stevens, D Wilson
Hookers: D Hartley, L Mears, R Webber,
Locks: M Botha, L Deacon, C Lawes, T Palmer,
Backrow: C Clark, T Croft, P Dowson, B Morgan, C Robshaw, T Wood.

Backs (14):
Scrumhalves: L Dickson, J Simpson, B Youngs
Flyhalves: T Flood, C Hodgson
Centres: B Barritt, O Farrell, M Tuilagi, J Turner-Hall
Wingers: C Ashton, C Sharples, D Strettle
Fullbacks: M Brown, B Foden


Out from the RWC squad:
• Retired from international rugby: S. Thompson, J. Wilkinson, L. Moody
• Injured: A. Sheridan, R. Wigglesworth
• Omitted: D. Armitage, S. Shaw, M. Banahan, M.Cueto, S. Hape, M.Tindall, N. Easter J. Haskell

From outside the RWC squad:
• Recalled: C. Hodgson. M. Botha. M. Brown, D. Strettle, C. Sharples, C Robshaw
• Uncapped: O. Farrell, B. Barritt, L. Dickson, C. Clark, B.Morgan, J.Turner-Hall, P. Dowson, J. Marler, R. Webber.

There weren't a lot of surprises in the squad: the 9 new caps and the recall of some players who had only a few caps were expected. Just about all the players from outside the RWC group had been mentioned in passing by TV or other commentators.

 

[Lee Grant]

Part II

Forwards

Props: It's good to see LHP Joe Marler getting a shot in the senior squad though it's unlikely that he will get on the park in 6N. His future will be defined by how he can scrummage. He's not there yet, but watch this space a few years down the track when the 21 y.o. gets to full strength. LHP Nick Wood, a better scrummager, is unlucky.

Hookers: I thought that Aussie David Paice who played for BSHS and showed up at London Irish as a teenager with not much more than the clothes he had on, and a rucksack, would have a show of getting the 3rd hooking spot in the squad. He played in 2 tests from the bench against the All Blacks in 2008 and is in good form; but Rob Webber got the gig.

Locks: As expected, though many in our neck of the woods wouldn't know much about SAffer Mauritz Botha of Saracens. When he was a young bloke Western Province said he was too light for their 2nd row so he went to England. The blond assassin is 115 kgs now and has already played from the bench for England in the RWC trials, but didn't make the squad. He's pushing 30 but is as hard as nails and plays a bit like his namesake Bakkies. A hard head lock of the type Oz rugby lacks.

It's notable that Tom Palmer of Stade Français was selected, not only because he is 32 years old in this youngish squad by Pom standards, but also because he and Morgan are the only players not from the English Aviva Premiership.

Backrow: Except 8. Morgan, this is a bunch of notters: not always 6s, not really 7s and not 8s. Dowson has started in all 3 positions this season and Saints team mate Clark could probably do so too. The others are really 6s by type even if some, like Wood, mostly wear the 7 jersey. I thought that specialist openside flanker Andy Saull of Sarries would be chosen to balance the pack, but he wasn't.

22 y.o. Morgan of Scarlets was almost qualified for Wales on residency this month, but he elected to play for his home country. Watch this lad: he is going to be around for a while. I expected him to be in the squad as understudy to Easter, but the old dog was omitted despite being in top club form. As the only no. 8 specialist, new cap Morgan could find himself on the park some time in 6N.

 

[Lee Grant]

Part III

Backs

Scrumhalves: The two backing up standout Youngs were not unexpected given that Wigglesworth was injured and Lancaster played hardball and dumped Danny Care when he failed a drink driving test.

Flyhalves: Charlie Hodgson is likely in the squad because Flood was injured recently and is in danger of missing the first game against Scotland. England has poor experienced depth at 10, compared to the amount of pro players they have available, though that could change in a year or two as youngsters Burns and North come into the frame.

Centres: Owen Farrell of Saracens, and son of league great Andy (who is also one of England's assistant coaches), plays 10, 12 and 13, and will likely back up flyhalf Hodgson in the first round of 6N if Flood is still injured. Manu Tuilagi was a shoo-in for one centre spot.

SAffer Brad Barritt used to play for the Sharks in the S14, is a tough tackler and has great hands. He and JTH both deserved their place, but I had hoped that quicksilver Jonny May, who has started at 12, 13, 15 and wing for Gloucester this season, would have got a shout. He'd be a good bench player. 13. 'JJ' Joseph is another youngster for the future who missed out.

Long term the 20 year olds, Farrell and M. Tuilagi, could be the starting midfield for England but they are inexperienced and will need some time to make their mark both individually and together.

Wingers: Not many surprises here. I thought Sharples was unlucky to miss the RWC, and he could start in the 6N with Ashton. Strettle seems to be able to make breaks and fend people off without losing balance or much pace, but he can make defensive errors. It's a pity that Clerc-like Christian Wade was injured recently as he might have got a mention. Remember this chap from the 2011 IRB U/20 tournament?

Fullbacks: Foden is a shoo-in but the durable Brown can run through opponents like Cullen sometimes and won't disappoint if he gets on the park. He would be a hit in Super Rugby, but at the 6N level he is limited because he is only a fullback and that is not a good look for coaches who like 5/2 benches.

 

[Lee Grant]

Part IV

I don't know who the captain is going to be as none of the better club skippers or leaders in the squad are 'guaranteed' a starting spot on form. How Lancaster would like a Borthwick, a natural captain, 5 years younger. Of all the players 'guaranteed' a spot, Hartley is probably the best natural captain, but Lancaster will have to lengthen his short fuse somehow.

It's good to see that Lancaster has chosen so many new players though, like all of us, he won't know who will be able to step up and take their game to the 6N level.

I am not convinced about the standard of the LHPs, and the 2nd row is not stellar. The backrowers are all-rounders except one who may be a future star, but is not one yet. If Flood is injured, as he may be for the first game, the flyhalf depth is thin, and the midfield, though it could be anything in the future, may be nothing much this year.

 

[spooony]

Who is this bloke with the suspiciously non English surname Botha? M. Botha I notice his name at the recall but don't see him at the top squad. Botha is the last surname you would expect in a English jersey lol

 

[Lee Grant]

He was listed in the "top squad" and you missed this bit also ....

...many in our neck of the woods wouldn't know much about SAffer Mauritz Botha of Saracens. When he was a young bloke Western Province said he was too light for their 2nd row so he went to England. The blond assassin is 115 kgs now and has already played from the bench for England in the RWC trials, but didn't make the squad. He's pushing 30 but is as hard as nails and plays a bit like his namesake Bakkies. A hard head lock of the type Oz rugby lacks.

 

[MrTimms]

Botha is the last surname you would expect in a English jersey lol

Obviously haven't seen their cricket team lately. Perhaps it's spreading?

Tapatalked from my phone.

 

[spooony]

Obviously haven't seen their cricket team lately. Perhaps it's spreading?

Tapatalked from my phone.

At least they are sort of English those surnames like Petersen but Botha lol
And the commentators rape the pronouncement of it like only they can. I'm looking for the Botham dude playing for England only to find a Botha lol

 

[the plastic paddy]

If England lose in murrayfield which I think they will, this could be a very very long six nations for them. If a Lions squad of 30 was being picked tomorrow I don't think there would be many more than 5 English in it, Lawes, Youngs, Tuilagi, Ashton(although it pains me to say it) and Foden. And of those 5 I would have serious question marks about all of them getting near the starting 15 bar Foden. For all the hype around Cole he still can't get a start for Leicester who were HUMILIATED in the Heineken last weekend. But for all that, youth has been given its head and these fellas will start off having nothing to lose.

 

[Lee Grant]

If a Lions squad of 30 was being picked tomorrow I don't think there would be many more than 5 English in it, Lawes, Youngs, Tuilagi, Ashton(although it pains me to say it) and Foden. And of those 5 I would have serious question marks about all of them getting near the starting 15 bar Foden.

That's not far from the mark paddy, though I expect that number will increase by the end of 6N, though like most amateur pundits I don't know who of the new or returning players are going to step up in class, as they say in racing.

I was walking the dogs the other night and picking my Lions team at the minute and didn't come up with many Poms in the 30 either, though I had Hartley in my squad. I think Farrell will be ready for a Lions tour by that stage too - on no evidence yet, I must admit, but I think he's a cracking young player.

Ireland and Wales should have more players in the Lions than they have had for some time, though Scotland will have precious few as usual. The "guaranteed to tour in 2013 with the Lions" list will probably have only one Scot name on it right now: "Richie Gray".

 

[Bardon]

I think England are doing the right thing having a cul of the older members of the squad and giving youth a chance. Despite winning the 6Ns last year, over the last 4-5 years England have been well behind France, Ireland and Wales. There are some promising young players in the English game. As Lee says there's no gaurantee that the young players will make the step up. But even if 1 out of every 4 young players steps up it will be a worthwhile exercise.

I hope when it comes to Ireland's squad I hope we have a bit of a cul too. Not as extensive as England but certain players like Paddy Wallace, Gordan D'Arcy, Leo Cullen should make way for younger players to be included in the squad. While previous Straters like DO'C should be moved to squad or bench players. There's a lot of young talent in Leinster, Munster and Ulster's squads who can challange for places in the 22 for 6N games.

 

[Lee Grant]

Bardon

Everybody hates the focus nations put on the RWC when, amongst other things, players stay on a year or two too long for it and coaches are happy to use them - the grizzled veterans - instead of taking a punt on young shavers at the tournament.

But at least the year after a RWC there is a clean out by all major rugby nations excepting those like Oz and Wales, who had young RWC teams. It's an exciting time for the rugby world and Ireland should take the chance too.

Like Oz, Ireland doesn't have a lot of pro teams nor therefore a big pool of pro players as England or France enjoy. Accordingly their scope for change is compromised but the players you mentioned: GDA, P. Wallace and Cullen should be er... culled; not that the last two mentioned started in many important games.

DOC has already been marginalised by Munster this year, playing from the bench a lot - at least in the games I have seen - and Ireland should follow suit as you suggest. Eventually POC will have to be replaced and you don't want to be replacing DOC and POC as 2nd row starters at the same time.

As for the others at the RWC: most of Boss, Reddan, Flannery, Leamy and G. Murphy should be replaced by younger men in the wider squad. I confess that I haven't done a forensic examination of who should be in the new 30, the 22 or the 15 and who the replacements should be in the vacancies I have recommended, but it shouldn't be too hard.

Someone like Earls will probably take BOD's place at 13 and therefore GDA may be retained at 12 in 6N for some midfield continuity, but it would be grand to see a new player like Darren Cave in the wider squad - or even Nevin Spence. We will be hearing a lot more about that young man methinks - a lot more.
.

 

[daz]

If England lose in murrayfield which I think they will, this could be a very very long six nations for them.....But for all that, youth has been given its head and these fellas will start off having nothing to lose.

I'm having a bit of deja vu here with the Pom coach. Some veterans are moved to the side, some hungry youth come in, a potential torrid campaign first up but the future looking full of developed promise.

Maybe Stuart Lancaster has been taking notes from one Robbie Deans.....


EDIT: Remiss of me to say this before, but a very nice analysis Lee. Well worth the read.

 

[SuperGrover]

Remiss of me to say this before, but a very nice analysis Lee. Well worth the read.

Agreed... Much appreciated

 

[SuperGrover]

I by no means want to hijack this thread, but I thought it interesting that England's much vaunted academy system (especially after their noteworthy performances at underage levels recently) failed to pick up Ben Morgan.

Ben Morgan's England elevation shows school of hard knocks can work

By Steve James
6:16AM GMT 17 Jan 2012

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...ion-shows-school-of-hard-knocks-can-work.html

 

[SuperGrover]

Backrow: Except 8. Morgan, this is a bunch of notters: not always 6s, not really 7s and not 8s. Dowson has started in all 3 positions this season and Saints team mate Clark could probably do so too. The others are really 6s by type even if some, like Wood, mostly wear the 7 jersey. I thought that specialist openside flanker Andy Saull of Sarries would be chosen to balance the pack, but he wasn't.

Like you've already pointed out Lee, there are a lot of 'notters'... this problem has also been identified by England's forwards coach Graham Rowntree who has identified the need for an out and out fetcher at 7.

So much so in fact that he's even suggested identifying a young foreigner who could qualify on residency grounds. Although he didn't mention any names.

With all this talk and England's new-found enthusiasm for youth I am really surprised that Matt Kvesic didn't make the cut. He is just this type of player, is only 19 years old, had a great under 20 world cup, is playing Aviva rugby with Worcester and is 6ft 1in and 15st 8lb. Sounds ready made to me considering the gaping hole at 7.

 

[Lee Grant]

... or Andy Saull - lots of time for Kvesic, but he looks OK doesn't he?

 

[Bardon]

Bardon
As for the others at the RWC: most of Boss, Reddan, Flannery, Leamy and G. Murphy should be replaced by younger men in the wider squad. I confess that I haven't done a forensic examination of who should be in the new 30, the 22 or the 15 and who the replacements should be in the vacancies I have recommended, but it shouldn't be too hard.

Someone like Earls will probably take BOD's place at 13 and therefore GDA may be retained at 12 in 6N for some midfield continuity, but it would be grand to see a new player like Darren Cave in the wider squad - or even Nevin Spence. We will be hearing a lot more about that young man methinks - a lot more.
.

Lee I agree on the other players you mentioned should be out of the international squad. G. Murphy has already retired from international duty after the WC, as he said himself a case of jumping before he was pushed. But he did raise a very interesting point. Talking about the other players who should also step down at international level. He said that players in Ireland are centrally contracted and those contracts are based on the players availability for the Irish squad so it's not in the interest of any Irish based player who's centrally contracted to step down from international duty. This puts more onus on the selectors to make the decision as no player is going to put their hand up to be culled in that situation.

As to the midfield I'd really like to see a completely new midfield for the 6Ns. D'Arcy through the years has been one of my favourite centres and has given Ireland some great service. But in recent years he's been picked on the basis of continuity. Now with BoD out for the 6Ns it's a perfect time to give youth a try. There are so many Irish centres who are ahead of D'Arcy on recent form Cave, Spence & Earls as you've mentioned but also McFadden and O'Malley have looked much better in the blue of Leinster this season. Apart from those there's also Downey doing very well for Northampton if we wanted a drash ball merchant at 12. Other than those guys there have also been rumours of Bowe being drafted into the midfield. So there are plenty of options ahead of D'Arcy but the pesimist in me thinks we'll see Gordan in the 12 shirt for Ireland for most of the 6Ns especially with the opener being against Wales.

 

[Lee Grant]

I didn't know that G. Murphy had retired from international duty.

The Ireland system is the same as we use in Oz.

McFadden would be in a 22 of mine for Ireland. He's not the worst goal kicker either. I don't rate O'Malley so highly at the minute.


PS I've just seen the Ireland squad and note that Cullen, GDA, Reddan and P. Wallace are still in the main group of 24 and that ROG is too. I thought that ROG had pulled the pin also but it looks like that he has changed his mind. It's good to see Spence in the Wolfhounds at least, but Cave missed out on both squads.

PPS I don't see a decent Ireland flyhalf after Sexton and ROG. That's the trouble with countries with a small pool of professional players like Ireland and Oz, with no third tier rugby between amateur club rugby and either Magners or Super Rugby: there are always areas of vulnerable depth yet no way to train replacements on the job.

France and England have virtual farm systems and players move up from lower divisions to the top clubs.

In the SH South Africa has the Currie Cup/Vodacom system which is at least semi-pro and NZ has it's semi-pro ITM Cup teams. Players are fully trained and well assessed before they get in a pro Super team. Not so in Oz or Ireland.

But I digress.

 

[dobduff11]

Part III

Backs

Just a few thoughts on the Squad:

Forwards: Nick Wood was very unlucky not to get in! Marler is a freak but he isn't as polished in the scrums as Wood.

" I thought that specialist openside flanker Andy Saull of Sarries would be chosen to balance the pack, but he wasn't." Saull is a good linker and quality on the floor, but he misses a lot of tackles for a top 7. Needs to improve immensely in this area.

Luke Wallace from Quins is a monster 7 and has been class all season, would liked to have seen him included as well as Matt Garvey from Lirish, Joe Launchbury Wasps (injured). A second row to look out for is Charlie Matthews (quins), big frame and a very good lineout forward!

Backs:
Freddie Burns has been good this season for Gloucester, George Ford is still a few years off, Heathcote from Bath has looked very composed. None are better than Hodgson at this stage though so Charlie gets the gig.

In the centre's Farrell is a very solid operator at 12 and has all the skills! JJ was playing well but got injured, Elliot Daly (Have a look at this guy on youtube he's going to be special!!) is starting for wasps at 13, trinder is very useful and Jonny "Forest Gump" May is rapid! Played against Daly for many years and barring injury he will be in the England squad by 2013.

Chris Wade is ridiculous but got injured the other day unfortunately otherwise it would have been interesting to see him start. Would like to have seen JSD in there as well but his time seems to have passed.


Lee I wouldn't quite compare Mike Brown to Cullen yet haha, but he is in great form atm and would be a very solid choice for us at the back if Foden were injured.

I'm looking forward to seeing how these guys fair in the Six Nations.