Law question - TPN's tackling technique

[Groucho]

It is actually illegal. A ref pinned saia for it. No arms in the tackle. It's a shoulder to the leg.

TPN's technique has been observed by dozens of refs over five years of international and provincial play, and no one has penalised him. If he used no arms, then fine. But it would appear that he does use his arms, or else, arguably, someone with a whistle would have noticed.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

As I understand it, a 'chop block' is where one player takes the guy up high while the other goes low, which is what happened in the clip you posted. The low tackle or block - cut-blocking - is legal but it does have some strigent rules around when it can happen and how.

I think that's right - there's a related video on youtube explaining how to do it legally.

 

[Sully]

It is actually illegal. A ref pinned saia for it. No arms in the tackle. It's a shoulder to the leg.

Actually Quirk was penalised not Fainga'a

 

[Bruwheresmycar]

TPN's technique has been observed by dozens of refs over five years of international and provincial play, and no one has penalised him. If he used no arms, then fine. But it would appear that he does use his arms, or else, arguably, someone with a whistle would have noticed.

The professional refs might simply be told to be lenient here because it's good to watch on TV.

The law says you must grasp a player and he doesn't. So it's illegal and wouldn't try it at the local park.

 

[Purce]

I was hoping someone would start a thread regarding this type of tackle. Is it illegal? Honestly I don't know, good arguments have been made here about its legality. Is it dangerous? Most definitely... I don't have much of a problem with the danger posed to the tackler as it is their decision to make that type of tackle and they can deal with the consequences on their end but I have serious issue with the danger to the attacking player.

Chopping at a joint such as the knee from front/side on is incredibly dangerous... as D-Box pointed out -

If you look at the individual getting tackled there are two potential knee injuries

1. If you have enough forward momentum and get hit on the shin you can rupture your PCL by pushing your tibia back against your femur
2. Even if the tacklee is standing still and the tackler hits their knee with the shoulder from the side you can rupture both you MCL and your ACL. (This is the risk from the NFL chop block)​

1. 
   
   Add in the size of some of the blokes making these tackles at Super level as well as the force at which they throw that weight into the attacker and you could have a recipe for very serious injuries.​

One or two refs in QLD Rugby have started penalising this type of tackle referring to it as dangerous and sometimes no-arms when pushed on the point. Also just about every player (amateur & professional) who I've discussed it with believe it to be dangerous and verging on a cheap shot as there is nothing you can do, as an attacker, about it. Check out the reaction of the Hurricanes no 8 after Saia's tackle. Earlier in the preseason I witnessed one player do this to another in a 15 on 15 contact "game" at club training... the tackler coped a fair flogging for his efforts as he hyper-extended the other players knee.

 

[fatprop]

A driving low tackle isn't a problem, I see the perceived no arms (at times) an the issue.

 

[Braveheart81]

Just watched replays of both of TPNs contentious tackles on Youtube.

The first one against Beale starts above the knee and slides down a little. There are most definitely arms in the tackle.

The second one against Robinson is pretty much at the level of the knee. It is certainly no lower than that and potentially there is also contact with the lower quad region. There are also definitely arms in that tackle.

Looking at both of them, it is very hard to argue that either are at all illegal based on the current laws of the game, nor would you say that either are overtly dangerous. Ged Robinson could have been injured in that tackle but I don't think his likelihood of injury was significantly greater than for any other high impact legal tackle.

Neither of them are remotely close to being no arms tackles.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Just watched replays of both of TPNs contentious tackles on Youtube.

The first one against Beale starts above the knee and slides down a little. There are most definitely arms in the tackle.

The second one against Robinson is pretty much at the level of the knee. It is certainly no lower than that and potentially there is also contact with the lower quad region. There are also definitely arms in that tackle.

Looking at both of them, it is very hard to argue that either are at all illegal based on the current laws of the game, nor would you say that either are overtly dangerous. Ged Robinson could have been injured in that tackle but I don't think his likelihood of injury was significantly greater than for any other high impact legal tackle.

Neither of them are remotely close to being no arms tackles.

i dont have a problem with beales.
TPN is "off his feet", however, when he makes first contact with robinson

 

[Braveheart81]

I think it is very tenuous to try and say that this sort of tackle is illegal because the player's knee made contact with the ground before the tackle is initiated.

This would potentially make many try saving tackles/ankle taps illegal because a knee might have contacted the ground prior to contacting the player.

This would also make a lot of goal line defence illegal as players are often down on one knee and going really low to try and get under the attacked to hold them back and up off the tryline.

 

[Shiggins]

TPN's technique has been observed by dozens of refs over five years of international and provincial play, and no one has penalised him. If he used no arms, then fine. But it would appear that he does use his arms, or else, arguably, someone with a whistle would have noticed.

HE doesn't use his arms. He usually uses his head or shoulder. Sooner or later he is going to break someone's leg. Then again he might not be playing much longer with all the head knocks. The guy still uses his head to tackle. The fact that he is the second choice Aussie hooker is saying we have a depth problem in hookers. Saia is quite average, GED is a kiwi and I'm not sure of eligibility and Charles is still learning. I think Hansen is probably our second best and Edmond was second until he left the brumbies.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I think it is very tenuous to try and say that this sort of tackle is illegal because the player's knee made contact with the ground before the tackle is initiated.

This would potentially make many try saving tackles/ankle taps illegal because a knee might have contacted the ground prior to contacting the player.

This would also make a lot of goal line defence illegal as players are often down on one knee and going really low to try and get under the attacked to hold them back and up off the tryline.

I'm just looking for ways to ban the technique within the existing framework.
In relation to the goal line defence point - so be it: you can just add that to the long list of infringements committed in that context.

 

[Braveheart81]

HE doesn't use his arms. He usually uses his head or shoulder. Sooner or later he is going to break someone's leg. Then again he might not be playing much longer with all the head knocks. The guy still uses his head to tackle. The fact that he is the second choice Aussie hooker is saying we have a depth problem in hookers. Saia is quite average, GED is a kiwi and I'm not sure of eligibility and Charles is still learning. I think Hansen is probably our second best and Edmond was second until he left the brumbies.

Watch a replay. He uses arms in both those tackles.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Watch a replay. He uses arms in both those tackles.

I think there's absolutely no doubt about that - i was even looking for the possibility that he could be pinged for not seeking to grasp.

 

[Shiggins]

Watch a replay. He uses arms in both those tackles.

What's the youtube link?

 

[Muttonbird]

i dont have a problem with beales.
TPN is "off his feet", however, when he makes first contact with robinson
View attachment 3264

Looking at that screen grab, opposition players should be able to work him out. Not much of a fend required to push his face into the dirt, he's that low. The attacking player could just as easily run or jump over the top of him.

 

[Dumbledore]

Looking at that screen grab, opposition players should be able to work him out. Not much of a fend required to push his face into the dirt, he's that low. The attacking player could just as easily run or jump over the top of him.

Can't jump into the tackle.

 

[Muttonbird]

Ok, I'll have to look at the Laws on that one. Still, TPN's technique is so unusual that decent players should be able to nullify it easily.

 

[Scoey]

This type of tackle only ever seems to be used as a blind side tackle. Generally the ones getting tackle don't see it coming or have time to react. Anyway, having said that I doubt many would be able to simple push a flying TPN to the ground in the split second before he crashes into their legs. And I don't know about you but I would never be thinking of leaving the ground if I was about to be hit by a guy like TPN.

 

[kiap]

Here's the youtube link (the one on Beale is a couple minutes earlier):

Clicky

Looking at that screen grab, opposition players should be able to work him out. Not much of a fend required to push his face into the dirt, he's that low. The attacking player could just as easily run or jump over the top of him.

Not much chance of a fend on this one, pal.

He was watching then catching the ball a split second before Polota-Nau crashes into his legs, as noted above. No time to get a hand free.

 

[USARugger]

Can't jump into the tackle.

This and hurdling a player in itself is also illegal, it's dangerous as fuck.

I've had guys hit me in the knees like that and there's absolutely a much higher level of danger involved as opposed to catching a shoulder to the chest like in a normal tackle. Even if it doesn't injure you that shirt HURTS and not in a rugby match kind of way, in a "I'm going to be in a fucking cast if he does that again" kind of way.

That and in the clip kiap posted you can see that hitting players like that can cause them to flip over, possibly landing on their neck. That really is only one degree away from a tip tackle, a red card offense.