• Welcome to the Green and Gold Rugby forums. As you can see we've upgraded the forums to new software. Your old logon details should work, just click the 'Login' button in the top right.

Louden on the S14, ELVs & Player Drain

Status
Not open for further replies.

mark_s

Chilla Wilson (44)
Here is an article from Todd Louden that I have taken from the Roar. Very interesting read

Give the coaches and players time to mature

Crusaders' Thomas Waldrom is hammered into the ground by Brumbies players in the Super 14 rugby match at Canberra Stadium, Saturday, Feb. 21, 2009. AAP Image/Alan Porritt

With just four rounds remaining, the Super 14 round games are almost over. Yet, there is no clear favourites to win the title. The standard of this year?s competition is down and it is showing in the TV ratings.

In comments posted on the Roar, it seems that we have all been holding our breaths since the first round for the competition to kick into another gear of play and entertainment. No matter who we follow, it seems that our team has played more poor games than good.

Heyneke Meyer, an outstanding coach, has explained that the Super 14 has been diluted over the last two years by the number of players plying their trade in Europe. The New Zealand teams have been affected the most.

Eddie Jones has also commented that the standard has dropped away.

But why is this? Is it a product of the environment, the laws, or the coaching strategy?

Lets talk about the environment first.

Currently there are four new head coaches experiencing their first year at the helm. Add to this an additional five head coaches in their second year as head coach, and that is a lot of intellectual property that has walked away from the Southern Hemisphere?s premier rugby competition.

A good example of this is Ewen McKenzie?s departure from Waratahs.

He is smart coach who promoted a lot of young players into the backline last season. He has a wealth of Super 14 experience and, I dare say, given the standard of the competition this season, the Waratahs would have won it easily with Ewen in charge.

Money cannot buy experience, and it seems that unlike the player rosters at the various franchises, there is no succession planning of coaches.

This is a little silly given that the Super 14, I believe, is one of the hardest competitions to win on the sheer basis of the amount of travel involved.

Such is the nature of the business that new coaches, and those in their second year, need to establish themselves by getting results quickly. To do this, coaches will either consciously or subconsciously play for the win only.

And that is often conservative rugby, given their experience in the competition.

Reading many of the posts about the Australian teams, supporters are saying we have such great young talent but we are not performing. Look around the competition - the Waratahs, the Reds, the Brumbies, the Blues, the Crusaders, the Highlanders, the Bulls and the Cheetahs have all introduced a lot of young talent.

The exodus of players to Europe and retirement has left the competition poorer in mature skill, experience and game breakers.

If the young players can be retained, then the Super 14 in 2011, which also happens to be a World Cup year, will be a cracker.

There has been much debate about the ELV?s, but lets discuss their factual impact on the game.

Lineout quality possession has diminished considerably with less lineouts, a greater defensive contest focus, given the unlimited numbers in the lineout, and most teams are being forced to win the ball at number two in the lineout, which vastly limits the attacking options and ultimately gives the defence the upper hand.

There are a greater number of free kicks and penalties awarded against the attacking team and therefore some teams have conservatively stopped playing possession rugby and opted to play field position.

Add to this a subtle yet significant tactical increase in the defensive systems, which slow the ball up greatly at the tackle contest, and teams can play too much rugby with a young immature skill base giving the defence an advantage in tactics and in law.

Not being able to pass back into the 22 to kick into touch on the full has had a huge impact on the Australian teams, as generally we have not been a kicking nation.

Most of the Australian teams only have a one-kick strategy.

Most of the South African teams understand the concept of a three-kick strategy to manipulate the opposition to a point where they can attack. If you watched the Bulls against the Brumbies on Saturday night, they scored a classic try because they understood the three-kick strategy.

Kicks per game have risen to sixty and most are down the opposition?s throat. What has happened to the long kick and the weighted kick with good pressure?

It seems that the competition has gone contestable kick mad, which brought fair results early in the competition, but due to the defensive strategies applied by most teams, it has released more receivers to the backfield to play aerial ?ping pong?.

Combine all of these points together, and a general conservative approach in this year?s competition to counter attack, and unfortunately supporters are turning away from the game disappointed with their team.

I read a lot about how good the Heineken Cup standard is, but like the Super 14, I have only seen a handful of great games so far.

My advice is to hang in there, give the coaches and the players time to mature their skills, strategy and confidence working towards the next World Cup, and we are going to see some great rugby.

Until then keep supporting your team - they need it! - and cherish the good games.
 

RugbyReg

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
my guess:

- long kicks for territory.
- intermediate kicks (kick and chases?) to put the pressure on the opposition.
- short kicking game - chips and grubbers.

???
 

the gambler

Dave Cowper (27)
I was thinking it was a if I kick it to there, you will then kick it to here and I will then kick it to there strategy but Noddy could be right.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
the gambler said:
I was thinking it was a if I kick it to there, you will then kick it to here and I will then kick it to there strategy but Noddy could be right.

That was more my thinking
 

RugbyReg

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
fatprop said:
the gambler said:
I was thinking it was a if I kick it to there, you will then kick it to here and I will then kick it to there strategy but Noddy could be right.

That was more my thinking

yeah, thinking about it, I agree with that.
 
F

formeropenside

Guest
Not really much about player drain, other than to say it has occurred, and is presumably due to money.

When your choices on losing a S14 contract (as with say Ed O'D) are playing club rugby while holding down a real job, or playing in Italy, Japan, France, Britain or Ireland - thats easy. When the choice is between continuing in S14 or going OS anyway, and you go, that shows there is a problem.

I have no idea how to fix that, save by making Australian rugby profitable enough to pay players at a higher rate (and even then some will want to head to the NH for the experience - but where are the NH players headed down here for the experience?).
 

mark_s

Chilla Wilson (44)
formeropenside said:
I have no idea how to fix that, save by making Australian rugby profitable enough to pay players at a higher rate (and even then some will want to head to the NH for the experience - but where are the NH players headed down here for the experience?).

Transfer fees?
 
P

PhucNgo

Guest
mark_s said:
Here is an article from Todd Louden that I have taken from the Roar. Very interesting read

Give the coaches and players time to mature

Crusaders' Thomas Waldrom is hammered into the ground by Brumbies players in the Super 14 rugby match at Canberra Stadium, Saturday, Feb. 21, 2009. AAP Image/Alan Porritt

With just four rounds remaining, the Super 14 round games are almost over. Yet, there is no clear favourites to win the title. The standard of this year?s competition is down and it is showing in the TV ratings.

In comments posted on the Roar, it seems that we have all been holding our breaths since the first round for the competition to kick into another gear of play and entertainment. No matter who we follow, it seems that our team has played more poor games than good.

Heyneke Meyer, an outstanding coach, has explained that the Super 14 has been diluted over the last two years by the number of players plying their trade in Europe. The New Zealand teams have been affected the most.

Eddie Jones has also commented that the standard has dropped away.

But why is this? Is it a product of the environment, the laws, or the coaching strategy?

Lets talk about the environment first.

Currently there are four new head coaches experiencing their first year at the helm. Add to this an additional five head coaches in their second year as head coach, and that is a lot of intellectual property that has walked away from the Southern Hemisphere?s premier rugby competition.

A good example of this is Ewen McKenzie?s departure from Waratahs.

He is smart coach who promoted a lot of young players into the backline last season. He has a wealth of Super 14 experience and, I dare say, given the standard of the competition this season, the Waratahs would have won it easily with Ewen in charge.

Money cannot buy experience, and it seems that unlike the player rosters at the various franchises, there is no succession planning of coaches.

This is a little silly given that the Super 14, I believe, is one of the hardest competitions to win on the sheer basis of the amount of travel involved.

Such is the nature of the business that new coaches, and those in their second year, need to establish themselves by getting results quickly. To do this, coaches will either consciously or subconsciously play for the win only.

And that is often conservative rugby, given their experience in the competition.

Reading many of the posts about the Australian teams, supporters are saying we have such great young talent but we are not performing. Look around the competition - the Waratahs, the Reds, the Brumbies, the Blues, the Crusaders, the Highlanders, the Bulls and the Cheetahs have all introduced a lot of young talent.

The exodus of players to Europe and retirement has left the competition poorer in mature skill, experience and game breakers.

If the young players can be retained, then the Super 14 in 2011, which also happens to be a World Cup year, will be a cracker.

There has been much debate about the ELV?s, but lets discuss their factual impact on the game.

Lineout quality possession has diminished considerably with less lineouts, a greater defensive contest focus, given the unlimited numbers in the lineout, and most teams are being forced to win the ball at number two in the lineout, which vastly limits the attacking options and ultimately gives the defence the upper hand.

There are a greater number of free kicks and penalties awarded against the attacking team and therefore some teams have conservatively stopped playing possession rugby and opted to play field position.

Add to this a subtle yet significant tactical increase in the defensive systems, which slow the ball up greatly at the tackle contest, and teams can play too much rugby with a young immature skill base giving the defence an advantage in tactics and in law.

Not being able to pass back into the 22 to kick into touch on the full has had a huge impact on the Australian teams, as generally we have not been a kicking nation.

Most of the Australian teams only have a one-kick strategy.

Most of the South African teams understand the concept of a three-kick strategy to manipulate the opposition to a point where they can attack. If you watched the Bulls against the Brumbies on Saturday night, they scored a classic try because they understood the three-kick strategy.

Kicks per game have risen to sixty and most are down the opposition?s throat. What has happened to the long kick and the weighted kick with good pressure?

It seems that the competition has gone contestable kick mad, which brought fair results early in the competition, but due to the defensive strategies applied by most teams, it has released more receivers to the backfield to play aerial ?ping pong?.

Combine all of these points together, and a general conservative approach in this year?s competition to counter attack, and unfortunately supporters are turning away from the game disappointed with their team.

I read a lot about how good the Heineken Cup standard is, but like the Super 14, I have only seen a handful of great games so far.

My advice is to hang in there, give the coaches and the players time to mature their skills, strategy and confidence working towards the next World Cup, and we are going to see some great rugby.

Until then keep supporting your team - they need it! - and cherish the good games.

What a timely article! Certainly echos a lot of the thoughts that have been rattling around in my head since last Saturday night's Tahs/Force game. For mine tho the clincher was watching the Crusaders and Sharks hammering it out later in the evening. The best game of the tournament so far and really answers a lot of what Louden's about.

SH rugby and particularly NZ certainly has been hit by the double whammy; coming to grips with the "extended" version ELV's on top of a talent drain to the North. The Crusaders early on in the S14 were sans Carter, Deans and a host of names from last season. Then to top that off they lose McCaw. Season done and dusted? No, up steps Keiran "f...g" Read, Isaac Ross, Jarred Payne and Colin Slade, among others. From time to time you will experience a talent vacuum, as has occurred. Shit happens, but its not the end of the world. It takes a little time but that vacuum will be filled if talent is brought on in a positive environment.

The easiest thing for a coach when faced with this sort of situation is to turn to a defensive, conservative game plan. Achieving significant improvements in defence really is the low hanging fruit that coaches go to in an attempt to get results. (Sound familiar to you Tahs fans?) Hats off to the Crusaders and in particular, Todd Blackadder for sticking to their guns! For instance, last season, and early this year, Thomas Waldron was a journeyman toiler. Right now, he's gotta be pushing So'ialo for the number 8 spot (Admittedly, he and a number of others.). He's killing it. Isaac Ross too has come from nowhere and looks to me that he'll be more than an ample replacement for Chris Jack come 2011.

These guys have stuck to their structure and ethos and you've gotta think that come the end of this tournament, they're gonna be there or there abouts. Don't worry about the talent, it will be there, but it takes a bit of time and smarts to bring it on.

Meanwhile, over on Noddy's "Dredful" thread, he and other disillusioned Reds fans are locking away the razor blades and are generally agreed that life stinks. But hey, I'd rather back a team that plays to win over a team that plays not to lose any day. The difference between the Reds and Crusaders at this stage is that, while the Crusaders talent has been to some extent pilaged, they still have a core of experienced players and management. The Reds don't have this at the present time, and admittedly they do have some dead wood, but give it time and they will deliver. Their losses in recent rounds must have had a seriously damaging effect on their confidence, and to execute their game plan, the one thing you need is confidence.

On the impact of the ELV's. I, like most others get seriously pissed off with the ping pong style that's developed. But again, I see this as a flaw in coaching rather than necessarily a flaw in the ELV's. Like a defensive and conservative strategy, a strategy based on kicking pssession away is the safe harbour of a coach under stress. Particularly if its like some of the mindless, skilless kicking games we've witnessed. Kicking for territorial advantage is part and parcel of the strategic attraction of Rugby; kicking for the sake of it is not. (BTW, has anyone heard mention of the term "hangtime" in relation to kicking this season? I thought not. So why is it that the NFL has such a big emphasis on it?)

For mine tho, I believe that the good intentions of the Sanctions ELV's have been seriously undermined by synical coaching combined with piss poor refereeing of the breakdown. Nobody (not JE), but nobody stays on their feet these days. Mat Goddard was recently pilloried for cracking down on this, but I'm with him. If you don't ensure a contest for the ball at the breakdown, then what's the point of a ruck? You get a ruck that nobody bothers to turn up to and a definsive line chock full of defenders that no one can breach. Which leads you back to the imperative to kick the ball away.

Rant over.
 
T

TOCC

Guest
PhucNgo said:
Meanwhile, over on Noddy's "Dredful" thread, he and other disillusioned Reds fans are locking away the razor blades and are generally agreed that life stinks. But hey, I'd rather back a team that plays to win over a team that plays not to lose any day. The difference between the Reds and Crusaders at this stage is that, while the Crusaders talent has been to some extent pilaged, they still have a core of experienced players and management. The Reds don't have this at the present time, and admittedly they do have some dead wood, but give it time and they will deliver. Their losses in recent rounds must have had a seriously damaging effect on their confidence, and to execute their game plan, the one thing you need is confidence.
whilst i agree that the experience factor is the root of many of the problems at the reds, my recently negative attitude towards the Reds had to do with the loss to the Lions, inexperience doesnt make you miss easy tackles or drop easy balls, which was the case against the Lions on the weekend.
 

mark_s

Chilla Wilson (44)
I do. I suspect that Hickey thought that all he had to do was to remove the shackles Link has had on the backline in recent years in order to unleash the backs. The problem is that the backs don't know what to do without shackles on.

Its obviously arguable as to whether Link's style of coaching was necessary or beneficial to the long term interests of NSW rugby, but I have little doubt that he would have got better results this year than Hickey.

just to be clear, I am not calling for Hickey to be sacked. I do want him to realise that there seems to be a singificant tactical vacum in the team and he is going to have to word hard to fill it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top