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NSW CAS Rugby 2020

WLF

Arch Winning (36)
Although there are quite a few players without 1stXV experience I believe that this Knox team could suprise many. The backs are actually quite experience with M. Stewart, O. Evans and S. Nicholl all playing in the team perviously (I think Evmeister might have forgotten S.Nicholl) and although Evans can't play CAS due to being 19, I believe Stewart and Nicholl will earn place. Also C. Barr was arguably the 2XV best player and could have easily been playing 1XV last year. Also surprises could come in the form of T. Godard at 9 who played Gen Blue U16 and J. McLeod at 12 who played U15 Gen Blue and U16 NSW League. The forwards are the worry for next year with none playing consistent 1XV last year. I feel the key forwards will be J.Black at 3 who played U16 Gen Blue, L.Chamen at 5 who played U16 Gen Blue and missed most of his maiden opens year to injury, and H. Kettles who played U16 NSW Country before arriving in Year 11 and making a big impression. If the inexperience of the forwards aren't too much I feel the class in the backs could carry Knox to the Henry Plume Shield, with the Knox backs next year arguably going to be the best of the comp.


Luv your passion BS, that is what makes this banter fun.
 

Big_Senditure

Stan Wickham (3)
Just recently found out some big news that could have serious ramifications on Knox's season. They will be without Evans (11) due to being ineligible because of his age (turning 19 next year). Apparently all schools were fine to have him play except Trinity and therefore he will not play next year. Being the only member of the squad that played CAS and Australian Schools Champs footy last year I imagine this will be pretty devastating for Knox, although I am sure whoever his replacement is will do fine. Interested to hear opinions of whether 19 yr olds should be allowed to play, there have been exceptions made in the past with Josh Nercessian for Barker being a star player in 2018. I personally think given the circumstances, being they have been in that year group for a long enough period of time, it should be allowed. Thoughts?
 

Mr Huge

Stan Wickham (3)
The issue of 19yo playing in Y12 is a vexed one for sure. Not going to comment on specific cases, but I agree the starting position should be that they are not eligible, since there are plenty of Y12 boys who will not turn 17 until term 2, well into the Rugby program, so it's really not OK for there to be 2+ years difference.
That said how do you deal with the exceptions? Is it fair to deny a young man (or woman) the chance to represent their school through circumstances outside their control? I'm not sure the "leave it up to the Heads" approach is producing consistency - which is required to deliver a fair outcome for all (e.g. Evans cf. Nercessian)
 

Hasbeen

Bob Loudon (25)
Dont think one 19 year old kid would make that much difference to a result myself. There would have to be a limit of one per team and no year 12 repeats.
 

carl spackler

Sydney Middleton (9)
Any deviation from the 18 age limit is fraught with risk, particularly around precedent. I still believe that the Barker win in 2018 would not have happened without the dispensation provided to their inside centre. He was not only a very good player but also an excellent goal kicker, and played a huge role in the win at Death Valley. In the same year, his performances for Warringah Colts were strong enough for him to be selected to compete in the URC. So clearly a mistake was made allowing him to play. Waverley are still spewing about it, and rightly so.
In Ollie's case, he has already played two years of first XV for Knox, and I have no doubt that he would strengthen their 2020 team immeasurably. Anyone suggesting that a winger won't have an impact on a team's performance is dreaming.
If it was only Trinity objecting, I am very surprised.
Ollie has had his turn - he would be too strong against some of the 15/16 year olds he will be up against. He has already represented NSW in 7s, and competed at the Nationals at Riverview in 2019.
I'm sure Gordon Colts will welcome him and I'm sure many of the mates he played with and against at school with will be there to continue their friendships.
 

bring back rucking

Larry Dwyer (12)
Really depends when he turns 19. This problem isn’t going to go away. There has been a big shift in starting ages of boys in nsw schools to the extent that march appears to be the unofficial cut off and kids being held back from starting due to age based maturity. I think turning 19 in December of year 12 is much different to January of year 12.

I know the GPS has a policy of being maximum age of 18 “Whilst at school” so late December was fine as school had finished

Also, there has been a bit of a shift to “playing with your year group” as opposed to under 14s when your year is under 13s etc on the way through school... I think this has more to do with trying to get more kids playing rugby. It’s hard to be a couple of weeks too old and end up playing and training with 1 or 2 years above you.
 

WLF

Arch Winning (36)
Any deviation from the 18 age limit is fraught with risk, particularly around precedent. I still believe that the Barker win in 2018 would not have happened without the dispensation provided to their inside centre. He was not only a very good player but also an excellent goal kicker, and played a huge role in the win at Death Valley. In the same year, his performances for Warringah Colts were strong enough for him to be selected to compete in the URC. So clearly a mistake was made allowing him to play. Waverley are still spewing about it, and rightly so.
In Ollie's case, he has already played two years of first XV for Knox, and I have no doubt that he would strengthen their 2020 team immeasurably. Anyone suggesting that a winger won't have an impact on a team's performance is dreaming.
If it was only Trinity objecting, I am very surprised.
Ollie has had his turn - he would be too strong against some of the 15/16 year olds he will be up against. He has already represented NSW in 7s, and competed at the Nationals at Riverview in 2019.
I'm sure Gordon Colts will welcome him and I'm sure many of the mates he played with and against at school with will be there to continue their friendships.


Carl and BBR, Yep this is a tough one, I do agree with Bring Back Rucking that it probably matters what month the boy turns 19, eg if it is after footy season, say after mid August, then they should be allowed to play IMO.
Clearly nearly all the CAS schools think the same.

Carl, the Waves weren't spewing about the Barker win in 2018, the Barker team won that game, how they did, is what still bewilders us, but champion teams....

P.S. Also as Number 7 astutely pointed out a number 11 probably won't win you a comp!
 

Jim Belshaw

Syd Malcolm (24)
I am cross posting this on the CAS and GPS forums. Some of you will be aware that TAS Head Murray Guest was killed in a car crash. His memorial service was this morning and TAS has posted it to youtube. Its' quite long, although the first 57 mins or so are photos of Murray. Murray went to Grammar and taught at Cranbrook and Shore. There are some stories here that you might like assuming I get the upload right. <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/F9nC16hrL7o?start=8813" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

Hasbeen

Bob Loudon (25)
Carl and BBR, Yep this is a tough one, I do agree with Bring Back Rucking that it probably matters what month the boy turns 19, eg if it is after footy season, say after mid August, then they should be allowed to play IMO.
Clearly nearly all the CAS schools think the same.

Carl, the Waves weren't spewing about the Barker win in 2018, the Barker team won that game, how they did, is what still bewilders us, but champion teams..

P.S. Also as Number 7 astutely pointed out a number 11 probably won't win you a comp!

A man of generous spirit WLF.
 
S

sidelineview

Guest
It's really simple: whatever the relevant CAS Rule states is what should be followed, with no exceptions.
Headmasters shouldn't have the power to decide outside of the relevant rule. It sets a precedent and sets up controversy and inconsistency for future seasons.

I agree with Carl: anyone who thinks a #11 can't influence a team to win games and ultimately a comp is dreaming. Example, prolific try scorer Jackson Mohi 2016 Waverley.

Rules are designed to create an even playing field. It's as simple as that.

From the CAS website:

Dispensation is required
The following criteria must be met before a student can progress to assessment:
  • The date at which they turn 19 must be after the last round of the competition (in 2018 that is after August 11th).
  • The student must have been enrolled at the school for the February Census date for year 10 of their cohort (for 2018 they must have been at the school in year 10 in 2016)
  • The player must be below the height and weight guidelines set by Rugby Australia. The current guidelines are H190.73cm W101.89kg
  • The player cannot have played 1sts and 2nds for the previous 2 years i.e. it cannot be his 3rd year in 1sts or 2nds
All schools have a duty of care to ensure that players are playing in the appropriate age grade competition, based on the player’s physical development in conjunction with their ability and/or experience. Hence, players with dispensation to play down or up two age groups, may then NOT play any competition games in their birth year age group or eligible grades. In exceptional circumstances, it may be mandated that a player participates in a specific age group either within or outside the player’s eligible grades.
 

WLF

Arch Winning (36)
It's really simple: whatever the relevant CAS Rule states is what should be followed, with no exceptions.
Headmasters shouldn't have the power to decide outside of the relevant rule. It sets a precedent and sets up controversy and inconsistency for future seasons.

I agree with Carl: anyone who thinks a #11 can't influence a team to win games and ultimately a comp is dreaming. Example, prolific try scorer Jackson Mohi 2016 Waverley.

Rules are designed to create an even playing field. It's as simple as that.

From the CAS website:

Dispensation is required
The following criteria must be met before a student can progress to assessment:
  • The date at which they turn 19 must be after the last round of the competition (in 2018 that is after August 11th).
  • The student must have been enrolled at the school for the February Census date for year 10 of their cohort (for 2018 they must have been at the school in year 10 in 2016)
  • The player must be below the height and weight guidelines set by Rugby Australia. The current guidelines are H190.73cm W101.89kg
  • The player cannot have played 1sts and 2nds for the previous 2 years i.e. it cannot be his 3rd year in 1sts or 2nds
All schools have a duty of care to ensure that players are playing in the appropriate age grade competition, based on the player’s physical development in conjunction with their ability and/or experience. Hence, players with dispensation to play down or up two age groups, may then NOT play any competition games in their birth year age group or eligible grades. In exceptional circumstances, it may be mandated that a player participates in a specific age group either within or outside the player’s eligible grades.

Can't Disargue with this Sideline, but exceptions have been made, not sure why.

Jackson Mohi was certainly an example of a #11 assisting to win games and comps, but suggest he is an exception, either way, if the rules you have highlighted were followed, there would be no debate.
Which I believe is your point.
 
S

sidelineview

Guest
Can't Disargue with this Sideline, but exceptions have been made, not sure why.

Jackson Mohi was certainly an example of a #11 assisting to win games and comps, but suggest he is an exception, either way, if the rules you have highlighted were followed, there would be no debate.
Which I believe is your point.

Exceptional players emerge every year in any given team, in any given position.
The presence or absence of any of these exceptional players can mean the difference between a team winning the comp or coming second.

Therefore, the argument that ''it's only one player'' doesn't wash.

It's also worthy to note that the CAS Rules include "All schools have a duty of care ......."
Schools that take a punt and apply for dispensations for players who obviously do not meet the criteria are doing the wrong thing in my opinion.
 

Big_Senditure

Stan Wickham (3)
To further add to Knox's woes, Harry Kettles, a player who captained NSW country in U16 and arrived at Knox in 2019 and was likely to be the starting number 8, has left the school. Starting to worry a bit for Knox's chances now...
 

WLF

Arch Winning (36)
Long term follower of the CAS & GPS threads and thought I would add my two cents worth for what its worth. My prediction for the 2020 Waverley team

1: Tom Jaeger (First XV)
2. Darcy Sullivan (16A)
3. Ben Dunning (Second XV)
4. Fritz Jahnke-tavana (16A & NSW 16s)
5. Miles Amatesero (First XV)
6. Davvy Moale (First XV & NSW 16s)
7. Will Baker (First XV)
8. Ethan King (16A, NSW 16s)

9. Klayton Thorn (First XV, NSW 16s)
10. Ronald Volkman (First XV)
11. Jordan Swan (First XV)
12.
13. Asolelei Fretton (Roosters)
14. Ethan Flanagan (16A, NSW 16s)
15. Emmanuel Di Bartolo (First XV)

The current First XV players will remain in their positions for 2020 - they were all key players in 2019. I have returned Volkman back to 10 where his experience and razzle dazzle can shine. Di Bartolo with his big boot at 15. With the latter of the 2019 season combo of Thorn, Di Bartolo & Volkman they will be exciting to watch in 2020 and will be key players for this team. Eager to see Fretton return to the team at 8 or 13. The forward pack will have good size and will be a force. The only positions up for grabs will be 12 and 14.


Matty D,

The holiday preseason training programs are close for all the schools, glad it's not me!
A few comments to solicit others comments on your proposed line up are as follows:

FORWARDS:

1. Tom Jaeger graduated this year, so clearly will be a supporter next year.
3. I am not a prop expert, nor much else, but the 2 prop spots will hotly contested, so along with Dunning include Smith, Cassimatis and Pantano in the mix.
I agree with the rest of your pack as it stands, but there are many contenders.

BACKS:

There are a few holes in your line up, E. Flanagan has moved to Cranbrook, a great young man and player and we wish him well at Cranbrook. So probably all spots with the exception of 10 and 11 will be hotly contested, and much will depend on where a cert like Fretton plays.

The preseason training and trial games will reveal everything for all the schools.
 

WLF

Arch Winning (36)
Interesting tracking the difference in preseason trainings with the top 3 teams already well under way developing schemes and game plans for the upcoming season, whereas the bottom three still focused on summer sports. Many may speculate this the reason for the lopsided results during the season as the top 3 have been preparing for months whereas the bottom 3 look like they are figuring it all out in the field hence the score lines of recent years. Interesting hearing developments from Knox about potential year 10s cracking the 1st XV side for the upcoming season. Similarly Barker are increasingly hinting towards a return of Ovenden, Brown and Vass as they are all underage and striving for Aus u18 honours aswell as a 3rd consecutive title for the school from Hornsby. Barker seem to be up to their usual tricks for f recent years as Waverley continue to loom as pre season favourites with their usual new intake of year 10 and 11 boys. What are people’s thoughts about the possibility of this, possibly unfair?. Me personally, if the boys are willing to are willing to repeat it could prove to be a difference maker in the hunt for the 2020 premiership


I have no issue with young boys returning,clearly they probably could have started school a year later than they did.
Not sure about your top 3 rationale, the Waves came 4th this year, and I don't think its quite as clear cut as your say, ie nearly every year, Cranbrook, Aloys and Trinity either finish in the top 3 or certainly spring some perceived upsets.

I do agree that an early preseason is probably a good thing, particularly during the summer holidays when all sorts of temptations are on offer, and I am sure most dads know what what I mean here, it helps keep them somewhat focused, and I think it does have some real impact on the upcoming season, particularly if you are playing the GPS schools in the preseason.

Contrary to some people's belief the Waves don't have a new intake of boys for year 10 and 11 next year, I know of 1, and that is for good reasons, I suspect all schools have some changes for various reasons.Furthermore this ïntake talk is not historically a trait, it did happen in the last few years, but I believe it will now hopefully drift away as it resulted in nothing. So having an intake guarantees nothing. In fact a few 1st XV contenders have left.
 

WTF?

Charlie Fox (21)
From the AAGPS thread, some of the trial matches have been finalised. Of particular interest is May 30th, Barker V Scots. Can't remember the last time these two schools played against each other, 5 or 6 years maybe?

2-May
Trial 1
Knox v Shore
Joeys v Riverview
Kings v Barker / Trinity
Scots v Kinross / Oakhill
Augustine's / Pius v Newington
High v Grammar

9-May
Trial 2
Trinity / Augustine's v Shore
Knox / Pius v Joeys
Scots v Kings
Waverley / High v Riverview
Oakhill v Newington
Pius v Grammar

16-May
Trial 3
Shore v Waverley / St Greg's
Barker / Oakhill v Joeys
Augustine's v Kings
Scots v Riverview
Newington v Knox
Grammar v St Aloysius
Cranbrook v High
Armidale v Kinross

23-May
Trial 4
Barker v Shore
Joeys v Scots
Kings v Waverley
Riverview v Augustine's
Newington v Kinross

30-May
Trial 5
Shore v Cranbrook
Joeys v Waverley / Pius
Kings v Newington
Barker v Scots
Riverview v Knox
 
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