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Pom Vs Wallabies

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Spook

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I can't disgree with anything written in this article from Jones. However, I'd love to see him eat his words.

Australia's power shortage
England can expose familiar failings in the Wallaby scrum on Saturday at Twickenham - Stephen Jones

Al Baxter, the Australian prop, has won more than 50 caps, which is a tribute to his durability and courage in adversity. He will be at Twickenham on Saturday with the Wallabies. However, his presence will also be a comment on the desperate lack in Australia of props with an ounce of credibility on the world stage, because if rugby had the same procedure as boxing in saving the battered from further punishment, then Baxter would hardly have finished a match.

And this is a cold reality that Australia must deal with, because for all their new outlook, their new coach (the New Zealander, Robbie Deans), for all their muscular talents and the brilliance of Matt Giteau and Luke Burgess at half-back, this new Australia will be haunted by the weaknesses of the old, and by the feebleness of their scrum.

For a great deal of those 50 caps, Baxter?s nose has been in grass. In the 2003 World Cup final, the limitations of Baxter and the Australian scrum were blindingly obvious, to all except the referee. Andre Watson?s scandalous performance and his penalising of the superior England scrum represented a day to live in refereeing infamy and it almost saved Australia entirely.

Baxter and company staggered on to Twickenham in 2005, and another match of quite awful humiliation for the macho nation. Baxter came up against Andrew Sheridan, then new on the scene. Sheridan demolished Baxter in the scrum comprehensively, and after Baxter had collapsed for the umpteenth time late on in the game, he was sent to the sin-bin. Matt Dunning, another Australian prop whose cheerful durability always seems to be at complete variance with his effectiveness, stepped in to prop and had to be scraped off the turf at the very next scrum. He was carried off, at first with fears that he had suffered a grievous injury. Thankfully, those fears proved unfounded.

Then came the 2007 World Cup quarter-final in Marseilles. This was another match in which England?s awesome scrummaging power beat what was in all other respects a superior Australian team. This time, Sheridan and company destroyed Guy Shepherdson and company, with Baxter arriving as replacement and faring no better than normal.

Props all over the world have accused Australia of cheating their way out of their own weaknesses over the years but these three demolition jobs by England finally nailed the myth that Australia could compete up front.

There was one faint hope that they would see the light. Pat Howard, the former Wallaby centre steeped in the northern hemisphere game with Leicester, became Australia?s director of elite performance in 2006: ?We must find real scrum-magers, we must put across the idea to young Australians that scrummaging can be sexy,? he said. But he left his post and what do we find? That Baxter and Dunning are still in the Australian party this autumn.

Naturally, ground conditions and refereeing can nullify scrummage advantage. Australia have definite strengths elsewhere, notably with the advent of the imperfect but powerful Burgess at scrum-half filling the gap left by the departure of the celebrated George Gregan.

Indeed, Australia have recast their forwards successfully into the bargain. Last weekend in Hong Kong, there were superb performances from Richard Brown, the new back-row man from Western Force, and also from Stephen Moore, the hooker who looks as large and combative as the great Phil Kearns, the last world-class hooker for Australia.

And as ever, Australia will come to Twickenham with real class behind the scrum ? Berrick Barnes, the 22-year-old from Queensland Reds, often comes on to slot in at fly-half later on in the game, allowing Giteau to move to the centre. There is also a chance of a very rare successful conversion from rugby league, because Ryan Cross, formerly of Syd-ney Roosters, has also been playing well in the midfield.

Stirling Mortlock, the captain, is also playing the best rugby of a distinguished career and it is conceivable that the Wallabies now have stability at the helm because of the appointment of Deans.

He comes from a celebrated New Zealand family and is a great nephew of Bob Deans, who, so all Kiwis claim, scored a try against Wales at Cardiff in 1905 that was disallowed, allowing Wales to win. It was the most famous nontry ever not scored.

Deans has always been earmarked to coach the All Blacks and he seemed a natural choice after the 2007 World Cup campaign ended in ignominy, with the defeat in Cardiff at the hands of France.

Emotions at the time were running strongly against Graham Henry, the incumbent coach. But by the time that Deans had applied to take over from Henry, some of the torrent of public opinion had lessened. More to the point, Deans had apparently made enemies in the executive of the New Zealand Rugby Union and when it came down to it, the old guard stayed in power.

Deans, with an incredible five Super Rugby titles under his belt as coach of the Crusaders, immediately decamped across the Tasman. However, he found Australian rugby in, relatively speaking, a parlous state in terms of play and finances.

Deans and Michael Foley, his scrum guru, will again be making the most strenuous efforts in the week ahead to hide the weaknesses, and to find some way of offsetting the power of Sheridan and England.

Baxter will almost certainly be in the firing line. He is no quitter. But England and the world know that neither is he any kind of dominant figure. They will be trying to destroy the remains of his reputation again.

- Australia yesterday beat Italy 30-20, Quade Cooper scoring the decisive try in the 72nd minute

Five new Wallabies who could test England

RICHARD BROWN
The new Australia No 8 made a tremendous impression last weekend against New Zealand in Hong Kong, with some powerful running around the fringes

LUKE BURGESS
The 25-year-old from the Waratahs is something of a late developer and may be just a little short in terms of scrum-half skills. But he has a potentially awesome all-round game

STEPHEN MOORE
The best Australian hooker since the celebrated Phil Kearns, and he has a definite power in the scrum to ally to his technical proficiencies

RYAN CROSS
A convert from rugby league and at 29 years of age, time is not on his side. Yet he has shown promise as a centre, and is picking up his new sport rapidly

BERRICK BARNES
The 22-year-old from the Queensland Reds was bloodied in the World Cup and, before that, in Australian rugby league. A rich and burgeoning talent

92
The number of caps won by George Smith ? making him the most capped Wallaby flanker in history. He lies fourth in Australia?s all-time caps list, behind George Gregan (139), Stephen Larkham (102) and David Campese (101)
 

Sully

Tim Horan (67)
Staff member
There is absolutely no doubt that Baxter is a better scrumager than last time he met Andy Sheridan. But he still isn't anywhere near good enough to worry him. It still grates every time I hear he is our most capped Front rower. But you have to admire his perseverance.

It also hurt to agree with Stephen Jones, but for once he is right. We will struggle in the scrum. Our forwards have improved every part of there play I just wonder if it is by enough. Funny how Barnes is held in much higher esteem in the NH as a Flyhalf than here mabe the Australia selection committee should listen and do a switch!

Richard brown is going great but he is also leaking penalties. he needs to clean up his ruck work.
 

Virgil

Larry Dwyer (12)
Sheridan is to rugby what Graham Hick is to county cricket, flat track bully. For all his supposed might and hype hes never delivered against decent opposition. Has certainly never performed against the AB's.
Would love to see you guys smash England in the forwards, cant see it happening but would be great if you could.
 

naza

Alan Cameron (40)
Its less about the scrum this time round and more about our clean out and aggression at the breakdown. I expect Burgess to be swamped by the Pom forwards.

I'm more worried about our backs at the moment. Quality possession against England will be precious. Giteau has been on a mission lately to hand ball straight back to the opposition. England will eat that up.
 

disco

Chilla Wilson (44)
I reckon our forwards dished it up to the Italians last night & it has been our backs that have let us down on more occasions this year.

I think Barnes should play at 10 & Gits should go back to 12.
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Virgil said:
Sheridan is to rugby what Graham Hick is to county cricket, flat track bully. For all his supposed might and hype hes never delivered against decent opposition. Has certainly never performed against the AB's.

Fuck yes Virg - and the times Sheridan has supposedly beaten us single-handed, the selections have had issues: in Twickers 2005 we had the weakest second row available to us (I maintain Al Kanaar was a better scrummaging lock than either MMM or Sharpe at that time; Mumm still is) as well as a coach who didn't apparently like scrums; In Marseille we went with the bewildering choice of Dunning at LHP and Shep at THP when both Robinson and Baxter were better options.
 

Gagger

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
Staff member
NTA said:
Virgil said:
Sheridan is to rugby what Graham Hick is to county cricket, flat track bully. For all his supposed might and hype hes never delivered against decent opposition. Has certainly never performed against the AB's.

Fuck yes Virg - and the times Sheridan has supposedly beaten us single-handed, the selections have had issues: in Twickers 2005 we had the weakest second row available to us (I maintain Al Kanaar was a better scrummaging lock than either MMM or Sharpe at that time; Mumm still is) as well as a coach who didn't apparently like scrums; In Marseille we went with the bewildering choice of Dunning at LHP and Shep at THP when both Robinson and Baxter were better options.

Census Jonston from the PI's kept Sheridan pretty quiet yesterday. Bore in on in him the whole time, but managed to milk the penalties out of it.
 
S

Spook

Guest
NTA said:
Virgil said:
Sheridan is to rugby what Graham Hick is to county cricket, flat track bully. For all his supposed might and hype hes never delivered against decent opposition. Has certainly never performed against the AB's.

Fuck yes Virg - and the times Sheridan has supposedly beaten us single-handed, the selections have had issues: in Twickers 2005 we had the weakest second row available to us (I maintain Al Kanaar was a better scrummaging lock than either MMM or Sharpe at that time; Mumm still is) as well as a coach who didn't apparently like scrums; In Marseille we went with the bewildering choice of Dunning at LHP and Shep at THP when both Robinson and Baxter were better options.

Baxter? Sorry Nick, but he didn't deserve to be there last year and when he did get on the pitch we were still man-raped. I think Baxter is better this year (and deserves to be first pick) and the second rowers are giving a lot more power through the scrum. Robinson should DEFINITELY have been there but he was out of favour with both NSW and OZ for a while there :nta: Fortunately Deans likes him.
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
I actually disagree with a fair bit of what Stephen Jones has to say...

As posted elsewhere:

I dont think Robbie Deans will think things are quite as bad as has been suggested by the press or by Magic Martin Johnson. The Wallaby forward pack put in a reasonable performance against what is an impressive Italian forward unit. There were 3 blokes in that pack playing their first season of test rugby in Alexander (making his starting debut), Mumm and Brown and one playing his last, Waugh. On the bench, New Zealand born Sekopi Kepu made his debut and Zimbabwean born David Pocock earned his second cap.

There will be significant changes to the forwards for the English test but the most significant will be the inclusion of G. Smith for Waugh. Waugh has looked tired and slow since the end of the S14. If Pocock hasnt already usurped him as Smith's backup, he will shortly. Smith is, with McCaw, the best openside in the world and nothing the English have can match him. If the rest of the pack can match his intelligence, aggression and commitment, the Wallaby forwards should manage to provide their backs with enough ball to beat most teams. The other important changes will be the inclusion of our only experienced starting lock, Sharpe, adding Baxter (who is improving, even at his age, thank goodness) and Robinson back into the front row, deciding who of Brown or Palu will start at 8 and who of MMM and Mumm at 6.

But it wasnt in the forwards that the Wallabies lacked against Italy, it was their backs.

So long their saviour, so long the only weapon in their armoury, so long the part of their game that kept them in matches they should have lost, this season, particularly, the Australian backs have been second rate. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) is not a natural fullback. It seems part of an unsuccessful game plan for him to launch the precious pill into the heavens each time he receives it. Ioane and Turner didnt get many opportunities but were there for the experience as much as anything. Mortlock has always mixed the sublime with the stupid, but, recently, his recipe has gone missing and he is adding too much stupid. I wouldnt be surprised if this is his last season as well. Tahu should be in Australia learning how to play rugby. He might get that chance now that he has damaged his hamstring.

Barnes lasted 15 minutes before suffering a "significant" injury to his knee which will likely rule him out for the rest of the tour. Then Giteau came on and disappointed. Unfortunately for Dingo, Gits is not yet an international 10. I'm not sure he has the temperament to make it at 10 and hope one of the youngsters, whether it be Barnes, Cooper, the mythical Beale, Lealifano, Halangahu or O'Connor, can step into the breach over the next 12 months. We are more dangerous with Giteau at 12. Burgess also had a forgettable game but I partly blame that on Gits failing to take control. Giteau was carrying a slight injury after Honkers and, hopefully, that was what hindered his performance on Saturday. Also hopefully, the injury will have healed by the time the English run onto the field this weekend.

The Wallabies also have something of an injury crisis. In addition to losing Horwill, Vickerman and Elsom for the tour (albeit the latter two arent injured), Tuqiri is yet to play, Frieir is injured, Kimlin is injured and, post Italy, it looks as though both Barnes and Tahu are out of the tour.

The team I think will be picked to take on Johnson's all nations 22 is (likely team in brackets):

15. Mitchell (AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper))
14. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) (Mitchell)
13. Mortlock (Cross)
12. Giteau (Mortlock)
11. Hynes
10. Cooper (Giteau)
9. Burgess
8. Brown
7. Smith
6. Mumm
5. Sharpe
4. Chisolm
3. Baxter
2. Moore
1. Robinson

Res:16.Tatafu Polota-Nau, 17 Dunning, 18 Palu, 19 Pocock, 20 MMM, 21 Cross (Cooper), 22 Tuqiri (if fit)/Turner/O'Connor

I've picked a 5-2 split on the bench because we cant justify carrying Cordingley or Sheehan on the bench. In the case of Burgess being injured, I would play either Cooper or Giteau at 9.

Admittedly this forward pack doesnt have the names of past Wallabies packs or, even the names it would have if Vickerman, Horwill and Elsom were suiting up. However, these young blokes must, and are starting to, make a name for themselves. Brown has impressed, Mumm is, arguably, already Elsom's equal, Robinson improves with each outing, Moore (silly penalties apart) is probably the best hooker we have had since Foley and Kearns retired and, as mentioned above, Baxter continues to improve. I can already hear the derisive laughter from Twickenham at that last comment, but I am hopeful Baxter can at least match Sheridan this weekend. Robinson is an aggressive, purposeful little bugger and should handle himself on the other side of the scrum. Sharpe and Chisolm can do the job provided they curtail their fantasies of being backs.

The other side of the coin is that the English pack isnt the beast it was even a year ago. Apart from Sheridan, Stephens and Borthwick, the pack has the sort of greenish tinge the Aussie cricketers have dreamt for despairingly in India. That's not to say they arent decent players, but the relatively green Wallabies pack certainly wont need to feel overawed and might even fancy their chances in the forward battle.

In the English backs, the green tinge is closer to an overgrown lawn. Care, Cipriani, Flutey, Monye and Armitage are all novices at international level. However, under Brian Smith, they will most likely play with much more adventure than any English backs in my rugby memory. Noon must only be there for his experience because he's not dangerous in the way the others can be. As to whether Flutey is the answer at 12, his defence will probably be tested by Cross and Mortlock running at him, but he wont be exposed in the way he might have been if a genuine 12, like Giteau, was lining up opposite and, for the same reason, he may even have opportunities to show why he is there.

Sadly, the Wallabies are likely to persist with their midfield bomb option to test out the English back 3. It seems a good way to hand over possession to me. If they do go with my recommended Cooper/Giteau 10/12 combination, expect a freer more dangerous Giteau. Cooper's job should just be to get it out and, as he feels more comfortable, he can begin to play his hand. It is too early for him, but we have no choice. The option of Mortlock and Cross in the centres hasnt worked yet and is unlikely to do so.

If the Wallabies front up, arent overawed by the Twickenham factor and abandon their midfield madness, they should do enough to turn around the 10 point home ground advantage and sneak it by 12.
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
There is some repetition of what has already been discussed in there, but I'm bringing it all together.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
I expect England to blow us apart at the breakdown and our scrum to start OK and then deteriorate over the game.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Nice post Cutter.

Agree with pretty much everything you have to say, but I'd start with Giteau at 10 and Cooper on the bench.

I wonder how long Deans and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) will persist with this horrible bomb option before realising 1. He doesn't have the skills to get the results (and doesn't chase it half the time anyway) and 2. There are many more positive options
 
S

Spook

Guest
fatprop said:
I expect England to blow us apart at the breakdown and our scrum to start OK and then deteriorate over the game.

Fat, England shouldn't blow us away at the breakdown. What happened last year in 1/4 final was frankly bizarre. Oz just didn't even approach the breakdown with any gutso :nta:

Cutter, I really like the look of your side. I still think Gits is the best option at 10 providing the balance is there with a 12 and 15 who are playmakers and kickers. In saying that, if it means Gits should move to 12 to accomdate someone else more comfortable at 10 then so be it. Mortlock to have a huge match this weekend if Gits goes to 12.

If think I'd start Palu at 8 against the Poms and put Brown at on the bench. I'd also start Tuquiri in front of Hynes as he always is good against the Poms and Hynes has worried me of late. Hynes or Turner onto the bench.
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Cutter said:
Smith is, with McCaw, the best openside in the world and nothing the English have can match him. If the rest of the pack can match his intelligence ...

... then they'll all think they're Andrew Johns and start putting in grubber kicks :)


Spook said:
Robinson should DEFINITELY have been there but he was out of favour with both NSW and OZ for a while there :nta: Fortunately Deans likes him.

Deans likes props who can do their job before anything else. Knuckles liked props who were the size of a house before anything else...



The thing that is going to be required from our forwards is speed and aggression - hence I'd keep Brown on the field. We need to run the Pommy forwards around and really attack them in the backs. Palu's size won't threaten the Pommy forwards and his workrate won't measure up if he's starting for the first time in weeks.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
Spook said:
fatprop said:
I expect England to blow us apart at the breakdown and our scrum to start OK and then deteriorate over the game.

Fat, England shouldn't blow us away at the breakdown. What happened last year in 1/4 final was frankly bizarre. Oz just didn't even approach the breakdown with any gutso :nta:

The poms will commit more to the breakdown and blow us off the ball, our breakdown work against Italy was terrible and they loitered all game. Loitering poms will mean Burgess will gets killed.
 

Gagger

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
Staff member
fatprop said:
The poms will commit more to the breakdown and blow us off the ball, our breakdown work against Italy was terrible and they loitered all game. Loitering poms will mean Burgess will gets killed.

Gotta say I'm with FP in fearing this more than the scrum even.

Thought Cutter's post was pretty on the money.
With the Italy game getting zero airing up here have put a few thoughts specifically relating from the PI game that I watched instead!

The bad news (or good news if you're a pom)
It was a 5 try to 1 win for the men wearing soccer players kit. So any hopes of a 'new team set up' shmozzle are out the window for starters. England have had a knack of taking a bunch of guys excelling in the Guiness Premiership or Euro Cup, and turning them into chumps. Against the PI, to a man they at the very least put in a solid professional performance.

And there were a bunch who showed more than that. Rees (7) and Easter (8) are hitting their international stride. While I'd put Rees a step behind Smith for speed to breakdown, he brings more impact and physicality. Easter is a pommy Palu with more nouse and footballing ability. The hooker Mears has a touch of Jeremy Paul about him, with a few more kgs.

The tight 5 found yards whenever they wanted them, but didn't monopolise the ball. Halfback Danny Care was almost Burgess like in his speed of ball clearance and nose for an opportunity, but more accurate with the pass. Clearance speed at the breakdown is a factor that England tend to forget to the relief of the rest of us, but with Care in the chair, it looks like his natural game. As we all know, big boys coming onto quick ball is lethal.

And the big boys aren't limited to the pack. Essentially the back 3, in terms of size and pace, are 3 Lote Tuqiris - the debutant 15 Armitage having a man of the match performance. Against the PIs, out was the ponderous pommy side to side predictability, and in was dangerous open field running from taps, turnovers and kicks.

The good news
They have props for centres. Flutey and Noon are big boys (there's a theme here...) but didn't show the agility to get through a hole. I also wonder about their defence against a stepper like Giteau. Mortlock would worry them less.

For Cipriani, read Beale. Talented no doubt (for chissakes, check out his girlfriend) but it's early days for the wunderkind. The PI's only try came from a charge down on a kick he could have made 3 times over.

Wingers. Ball in hand they look dangerous. But ball over or behind them? This does rely on the Wallabies having a kicking game though.....

Speed to the breakdown. Smith, or even Pocock should have the edge here. Latu did a great job. As we know though, this is very ref dependent.
The PIs got a fair bit of ball, but managed to consistently pass it to no-one.

The PI scrum not only held up, it milked a few penalties..... wishful thinking?
 

RugbyReg

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
fatprop said:
Spook said:
fatprop said:
I expect England to blow us apart at the breakdown and our scrum to start OK and then deteriorate over the game.

Fat, England shouldn't blow us away at the breakdown. What happened last year in 1/4 final was frankly bizarre. Oz just didn't even approach the breakdown with any gutso :nta:

The poms will commit more to the breakdown and blow us off the ball, our breakdown work against Italy was terrible and they loitered all game. Loitering poms will mean Burgess will gets killed.

and again, the obvious lack of counter rucking, except for Brown it seems.

Shall be very interesting what team they pick. I assume they will pick:

15 AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
14 Mitchell
13 Cross
12 Morty
11 Hynes
10 Gits
9 Burgess
8 Brown
7 Smith
6 Mumm
5 Chis
4 Sharpe
3 Baxter
2 Moore
1 Robinson

Happy enough with the forwards, although I'd still consider MMM ahead of Sharpe.

But as a backline I think I'd still go:

15 Mitchell
14 Turner
13 Morty (just)
12 Gits
11 AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
10 Cooper
9 Burgess

I'm just not a fan of the two 13s in the centres, although perhaps we can get away with it v England.
 
P

PhucNgo

Guest
Is it too late to call the whole thing off?

Watching the game on Sunday morning I was torn between feelings of absolute and utter frustration and that this was as good as it gets. Unlikely as it may sound I think we'll probably look back at Italy as being the highlight of this tour. Its all up hill from here and even at this early stage I'd put money on a grand slam of the majors, but I can't see us being the slammers, more like the slammees. :'(
 
R

rugbywhisperer

Guest
But as a backline I think I'd still go:

15 Mitchell
14 Turner
13 Morty (just)
12 Gits
11 AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
10 Cooper
9 Burgess

I'm just not a fan of the two 13s in the centres, although perhaps we can get away with it v England.
[/quote]

Agree - that backline has balls and at least some ability to attack. Mitchell must be at 15 to allow him to create - too stiffled on the wing,
AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) isn't cutting it at 15 yet will be a boost at11 with Tuquri as backup-
Must give Cooper a start and dare I say it - O'Connor could be a surprise if he replaces Cooper in the 2nd half
If Giteau needs to go to 10 - shoot him, call the game off, do whatever is necessary to prevent it happening.
This backline can startle the POMS - they won't have any answer to the creativity of these players i these positions.
 
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