QF2 2012 - Crusaders vs Bulls

[Dan54]

McCaw playing extremely well at 8.

After watching game again, I keep getting amazed by his workrate, and I know I have seen quite a number of posts saying he past his best and should retire, if that the case there would not be very many people in the world good enough to play rugby.

 

[vismyr]

McCaw was awesome. For some reason, switching to the back of the scrum enables him to focus more on his running, and he made several barnstorming runs over the top of Bulls players. Obviously he's an incredible leader so if he can maintain this quality of work, then I see no reason why he shouldn't get the opportunity to be the first Captain to lift the Web Ellis Trophy twice.

 

[vismyr]

And as an All Blacks supporter, I thought Steyn had an awesome game and should definitely maintain his starting place in the Springboks squad at least until the next world cup;-)

 

[saderista]

That was a good win for the Saders, they just didn't give the Bulls an inch.

As others have said Dr McCaw is still the best forward in the game, no matter what # is on his back he is right in the thick of it, running, linking, pilfering, tackling and leading, he does it all.

And Carter too, still the best 10 going around, calm and efficient, there are none better.

I am going to give a bit of praise also to M Todd, the last two weeks he has been outstanding, now I know Sam Cane has pole position for the Black 7 jersey but Todd must be coming into calculations. It will be an interesting battle between the two next week, assuming they both get picked for their respective teams that is, with Read most likely back Todd may not start and the Chiefs have preferred to start Latimer.

Anyway, congrats Crusaders, hard luck Bulls.

 

[Antony]

McCaw was awesome. For some reason, switching to the back of the scrum enables him to focus more on his running, and he made several barnstorming runs over the top of Bulls players. Obviously he's an incredible leader so if he can maintain this quality of work, then I see no reason why he shouldn't get the opportunity to be the first Captain to lift the Web Ellis Trophy twice.

This thinking worries me a bit.

There's a pretty reasonable school of thought that he's past his best at 7, and that he might be able to switch to 6/8. But even if Richie becomes the second best no. 8 in the world, we already have the best no. 8 in the world, so Richie pretty much has to become a no. 6.

Over the next four years other great loose forwards are going to crop up - whether that's Luke Whitelock, Same Cane, Brad Shields, Luke Braid, Matt Todd or someone we haven't even heard of yet, it's going to happen. If we go into it with the idea that Richie is a certain starter at 6, who could we be missing out on?

 

[Dan54]

He will remain 7 I would think, mind you I struggle to see a better all round 7 in the world.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

This thinking worries me a bit.

There's a pretty reasonable school of thought that he's past his best at 7, and that he might be able to switch to 6/8. But even if Richie becomes the second best no. 8 in the world, we already have the best no. 8 in the world, so Richie pretty much has to become a no. 6.

Over the next four years other great loose forwards are going to crop up - whether that's Luke Whitelock, Same Cane, Brad Shields, Luke Braid, Matt Todd or someone we haven't even heard of yet, it's going to happen. If we go into it with the idea that Richie is a certain starter at 6, who could we be missing out on?

Yep, it's that kind of thinking that prevented the All Blacks from backing up in 1991. They were too old and slow by then. As an Aussie, I hope these superstars keep playing until 2015, because the world would have passed them by (look at every other RWC winning team). You'd think that there will be a transition plan in place.

 

[Antony]

He will remain 7 I would think, mind you I struggle to see a better all round 7 in the world.

Agreed, but to some extent we're making excuses. He's no longer the best fetcher in the game, but we say (correctly) that his ball-running and support play is superior to that of his rivals. But what if that isn't what we want from our 7? What if the game shifts back to requiring an absolute ball-tearer of an openside? To me our current logic is a bit like when Eddie Jones said Tuqiri was good because of his ruck involvements - nice value add, but not necessarily what you should be picking the guy for.

You'd think that there will be a transition plan in place.

I think there's a plan, but it's based around keeping richie/dan fresh rather than having them help find their replacements.

I'll put it this way. I don't necessarily think Aaron Cruden is going to end up better than Dan, but even if he does, there is no way he will ever be Steve Hansen's first choice five-eighth while Carter is playing and fit and rested. Ditto McCaw.

Commitment to form (allied with depth) has always been our edge [Shelford for Brooke; Mehrtens for Spencer; Spencer for Carter] and I think the All Blacks may have found their first two undrop-able players.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not advocating dropping either of these legends now (or ever, if it isn't needed), but viewing them as sacred is a mistake.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I wouldn't drop them either, but there should be a transition plan for them. No player is ever absolutely indispensable for their entire career. There are countless examples of top line sports stars who have played well beyond their best. Look at our cricket team.

 

[Dan54]

Antony, I not sure why you don't believe that the young fellas in ABs this year are not seen as being part of a transition plan, I not able to see how Carter, McCaw etc are going to be playing in a couple of years, but I actually believe the coaches would be more interested in winning than keeping players that are gone. Actually was listening to interview with Richie on Radio today where he was asked how long he thought he had, said he was set on packing it in if he thought he was struggling too much, he also said he feels he just playing properly now after lay off from foot injury etc, and he a few KGs heavier than he used to be, and feels that the way to go as 7 job is changing to be more physical rather than straight out scavenging role. I see what he means when you watch teams like the Sharks who have a quite big loose forward trio, and their hooker(Bismark) is the one who wins most of their turnovers.

 

[ACT Crusader]

Agreed, but to some extent we're making excuses. He's no longer the best fetcher in the game, but we say (correctly) that his ball-running and support play is superior to that of his rivals. But what if that isn't what we want from our 7? What if the game shifts back to requiring an absolute ball-tearer of an openside? To me our current logic is a bit like when Eddie Jones said Tuqiri was good because of his ruck involvements - nice value add, but not necessarily what you should be picking the guy for.



I think there's a plan, but it's based around keeping richie/dan fresh rather than having them help find their replacements.

I'll put it this way. I don't necessarily think Aaron Cruden is going to end up better than Dan, but even if he does, there is no way he will ever be Steve Hansen's first choice five-eighth while Carter is playing and fit and rested. Ditto McCaw.

Commitment to form (allied with depth) has always been our edge [Shelford for Brooke; Mehrtens for Spencer; Spencer for Carter] and I think the All Blacks may have found their first two undrop-able players.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not advocating dropping either of these legends now (or ever, if it isn't needed), but viewing them as sacred is a mistake.

Why do the ABs need a "fetcher" at 7 when they win turnovers in others ways - including McCaw??

Where does it say the 7 has to be a fetcher, pilferer or any other type of 'er'?

McCaw plays the game at a high intensity, he tackles the house down, impacts the game and often has an effect on creating turnover ball.

Also many thought a few in the England pack were past it in WC03 even though they had had success during 02-03. A good combination of experience and younger players in form has shown that it can be the winning formula needed in a tournament.

 

[Athilnaur]

Doubt the kiwis will get too misty eyed, a country that could cut loose Buck Shelford at his peak undefeated as an All Black captain is capable of saying 'sorry but' to McCaw and Carter when the time comes and even before it comes.

McCaw certainly was impressive at 8 last night, no doubt we will be seeing him and Dan for a year or two yet.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I stand by my previous comments about Sir Richie, that as a 7 I think he has jumped the shark. That is not to say there is no longer a role for him in the team.

#7 IMHO is a fast young mans position. When you have to resort to playing the opposition players and not the ball, then as a #7 it is time to commence the pathway to Rugby Nirvana, (4th Grade Prop playing 300th game and thinking about retiring so you can play Golden Oldies!). This journey is typically accomplished in several stages. For someone like Sir Richie, this will include spells in #6 or #8 for a year or two.

He is performing well on stage 1 of the pathway, both internationally and at Super level.

The Darkness seem to have any number of young upstarts ready to take the #6, #7 and #8 role. Have they got another leader? No. That has got to be the big challenge for the Lords of Darkness, and one that is keeping them awake at night, but that is for another thread.

 

[Dan54]

Mate Read is good enough to lead All Blacks if Richie not there, just I beg to differ on role of 7 in todays game,I a fan of a dominating tackler at 7, as these days a lot of centres etc get as many turnovers as 7s. But as you say that can be discussed on other threads.

 

[PaarlBok]

Brutes left their passion back in SA. Cant remember see them playing as bad as they did on saturday. Their season is done and dusted but there is life after 2012. They have a string of jump Bulletjies coming through and looking forward to see them go in the CC season.

Not sure if Meyer watched this one , if he did he sure would have take notice of a whole bunch of current Bokke not close to Springbok rugby level.