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Reds vs Crusaders Super Rugby Rd11 2012

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Gagger

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
Staff member
I know the party line is that Bryce is just rubbish on everyone and not biased in any way, but like Kaplan reffing the Tahs or Wallabies, you could really see him reaching for well timed and well placed penalties.

You look down the game stats for that match and you can see that the Reds clearly applied more pressure (except maybe at scrum time...) and yet got pinged off the park.

It's not a palatable assertion I'm making, but I can't deny what I saw.

By the way, that's not to say that I don't think he's incompetent as well.

Screen Shot 2012-05-09 at 14.55.55.png
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
8.2 WHEN ADVANTAGE DOES NOT ARISE
The advantage must be clear and real. A mere opportunity to gain advantage is not enough.
If the non-offending team does not gain an advantage, the referee blows the whistle and
brings play back to the place of infringement.

You really are twisting things around here CD. This is surely in relation to the advantage rule? ie if the non-offending team does not gain an advantage in general play after a discretion by the offending team, then it gets called back to a scrum/penalty. You have also done well to post a couple of screen shots where the Reds players are just off the screen. Except for Dagg, every Crusaders player in that shot is either offside or further away than the advancing Reds players. When Dagg drops it, it goes behind him and he overruns it, making it difficult for him to easily get back to the ball.

But I am thinking you are a lawyer or such and will argue this until we are all blue in the face, despite evidence and general opinion being contrary to your view, so I'll leave it at that.
 

Jets

Paul McLean (56)
Staff member
http://www.therugbysite.com/blog_posts/198-it-is-time-to-blow-the-whistle-on-bryce-by-mark-reason?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Mark Reason It is time to blow the whistle on Bryce&utm_content=Mark Reason It is time to blow the whistle on Bryce CID_2346a50b3a64ae22467b43b59880d742&utm_source=email&utm_term=Read more

It is time to blow the whistle on Bryce

The voice of reason
about 15 hours ago
I have no idea what SANZAR thought they were doing when they appointed Bryce Lawrence to the match between the Reds and the Crusaders at the weekend. Maybe they had taken a blow too many to the head. But the officiating of this game was an accident waiting to happen.
Look at the chat forums before the game. They nearly all predicted a penalty count exactly along the lines of the one that transpired. The Reds were much the better side, yet they were hammered 17-7 on an horrendously one-sided evening of reffing. Sad to say Mr Lawrence was the difference between the teams and the sooner Super 15 brings back neutral refs, the better.
It was not just the Reds that Lawrence penalised, but the other New Zealand teams striving to get to the knockout stages. If the Reds had won by under 7 points, a likely result with equitable reffing, the Chiefs would now be 10 points clear of the Crusaders and the Highlanders, with the Hurricanes a further 3 behind. The Reds would also have a much better chance of chasing down the Brumbies. Instead Mr Lawrence has ruined another rugby weekend for many people.
It is not Mr Lawrence whom we should be annoyed with. The bloke does his best and anyone who has tried refereeing will know that is it an horrendously difficult job, particularly given the mess that theIRB, unduly swayed by the Southern Hemisphere, has made of the laws.
No, we should be irritated with the people in charge of the refs who continue to put him out there. Lawrence has no idea how to officiate the scrummage. He made a complete hash of the Ireland versus Australia Rugby World Cup pool game. The multiple errors he made with the scrummage were detailed to me at the time by a former international prop of neutral outlook. “Guessing” he called it and detailed why Lawrence was a very bad guesser.
At the time Robbie Deans said wryly: “We have to live with the ref’s calls and tonight we didn’t.” When Lawrence reffed the recent game between the Rebels and the Blues, the Rebels captain wondered how on earth he could award the Blues a try that came from breaking off a scrum that had gone through 90. That was the match when Lawrence said, slightly desperately, that it wasn’t easy for him out there either.
Too true. His reffing of the scrum at the weekend was again a joke. Ben Franks was allowed to put his hand on the ground (illegal) and bore in (illegal) and Corey Flynn was allowed to pop up like a piece of toast (illegal). But when the Reds counterparts did the same things they were pinged, presumably on the nonsensical ground that they are not so good at scrimmaging. Where does that end? We won’t penalise Sir Richie for knocking on the ball because he is so good. Sorry, Lawrence did that as well to Will Genia’s comical outrage.
Lawrence’s reffing of the breakdown is no better. The World Cup quarter-final between South Africa and Australia was another accident waiting to happen, because Lawrence had been just as negligent of the laws in creating a turgid Super 15 final. After the World Cup match former WC final ref Andre Watson said: “He didn’t referee the breakdown the way he was supposed to. He just didn’t step in.”
When he does step in, Lawrence is inconsistent. He penalised Digby Ioane for not releasing at the weekend, but the time frame was so short Lawrence was bound to then ping almost every other attacking player going to ground. Of course he didn’t. And the decisive penalty of the match left Liam Gill justly bewildered. All afternoon the tackler had been given rights to the ball on the ground, except this time. It was a ruck apparently. The IRB should be ashamed because the definition of a ruck is now so fuzzy as to be subjective guesswork.
Ewen Mckenzie, the Reds coach, said after the game: “We average 10 penalties a game and then cop 17-7. So it’s pretty hard to play at their end of the ground.” After the World Cup South Africa captain John Smit, one of the game’s most articulate and fair-minded men, said: “Bryce is not difficult to communicate with, he just doesn’t seem to listen very well. The one positive (of retirement) is that I won’t ever have to be reffed by him again.” The African outrage was so great that Lawrence has yet to take charge of a match involving a South African side this season.
A system that continues to put Lawrence out there despite all the justified criticism has to be rotten. There are on average over 7 successful penalty goals in the Super 15 matches that Lawrence has had charge of this season. Far too many of those calls are just plain wrong. It is hard not to suspect that Lyndon Bray, the man in charge of Sanzar’s refs, is too friendly to be objective about this.

Mr Lawrence influenced the World Cup to its detriment. He is now doing the same to the Super 15. If the refs’ boss won’t step in, then maybe Sky TV should. They pay the big money. I feel sorry for Mr Lawrence because he is out of his depth and there is absolutely no place for personal abuse in these discussions. But unfortunately his mistakes are continuing to affect a lot of people’s livelihoods and it is time to blow the whistle on the New Zealander and promote an up-and-comer.
 

Jets

Paul McLean (56)
Staff member
This is the best line of the article. The Southern Hemisphere nations are the devil.

It is not Mr Lawrence whom we should be annoyed with. The bloke does his best and anyone who has tried refereeing will know that is it an horrendously difficult job, particularly given the mess that the IRB, unduly swayed by the Southern Hemisphere, has made of the laws.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
Have been thinking over the on and on again Bryce L debacle being allowed to continue, the inexcusable inconsistency of the SANZAR 'judiciary', the Paddy O'B "apologies" to certain teams only that were never rebuked, the way in which many rugby franchises seem accountable to no one for mediocre year-on-year performance, etc.

And the overarching and paradoxical thought passed my mind: rugby is a game always rich in laws, but often poor in standards.
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
Staff member
I used to think that Bryce was a good ref but either he has been out of form for a long time, or my original assessment was bunk.

I said earlier that his performance in this game was nutty and whimsical. It was nutty because there was no thread of consistency in treatment of similar events in the game. It was whimsical because one could never tell when he would invoke a law, as though sometimes he was in the mood and sometimes not.

When you are watching Super Rugby you get a fair idea of who will be pinged when the whistle blows. In the Top14 you always turn your eyes to the ref because you are hardly ever certain which way the arm will go up.

Maybe Bryce should go to France: he will find it simpler there. I am sure that his erratic performance owed nothing to bias but the favour he gave by chance to the home team last weekend will hold him in good stead in France.

And his nuttiness and whimsicality will be par for the course.
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Jets

Paul McLean (56)
Staff member
I'm not sure what you are trying to say or how it relates to what you quoted?
According to every Northern Hemisphere rugby journalist the Southern Hemisphere is to blame for everything is the point I was making.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
Reassuring news is just in!

Lyndon Bray has assessed Bryce's Sunday performance: "Overall Bryce did a good job." Some "concerns" re "the use of the hand by Crusaders No 1" and "had a word with Bryce and Crusaders about that"...."one area that could have been handled better". Picking up on this barely noticeable flaw and 'having a word about it' will encourage all Reds' fan to further appreciate the gentility and care with which these post-game SANZAR reviews are held. Thankfully, no one in the refereeing group need be offended by this 'discussion and learning process'.

It was also most pleasing to learn that Bray's referee group "want to be involved in the bigger games" and "...feel it when they are given the lesser games...".

(My highlighting below.)
SANZAR referees boss Lyndon Bray defends performances of officials, discusses rule changes
By Antony Pinshaw FOX SPORTS May 09, 2012 12:25PM

SANZAR referees boss Lyndon Bray says he can understand the frustration felt by Super Rugby fans whenever there is a scrum reset, but is happy with the overall performance of referees so far this season.

Supporters were particularly enraged after last weekend’s round of Super Rugby, with Queensland Reds and Western Force fans in particular feeling aggrieved over refereeing decisions that were perceived to have had a major impact on the outcome of their games.

Despite scrum completion rates (when a scrum is completed without being reset or penalised) up above 60% this year as opposed to 45% last season, they continue to be a bugbear for many fans, with fans venting their anger on foxsports.com.au after Sunday’s match.

"Disgracefully inconsistent refereeing, missed knock-ons, silent touch judges. I didn’t count a single scrum where the Crusaders props didn’t have a hand on the ground," MD wrote.

Then there was this from Ben of Brisbane: “Pathetic refs ruined the game! The apparent dominant Crusaders scrum was helped by props leveraging with their arms off the ground … I thought that was Illegal."

Bray, who refereed seven Tests and 23 Super Rugby matches before being appointed to the SANZAR role, defended the man in charge of the Reds' game against the Crusaders, Bryce Lawrence, although he did admit there was one area that could have been handled better.

"Overall Bryce did a good job,” Bray told foxsports.com.au.

"On review of that game, the Reds No.1 (Greg Holmes) deserved to be penalised when he was.

"What concerned us was the use of the hand by the Crusaders No.1 (Ben Franks) … and I had a word to Bryce and to the Crusaders about that."

Bray also pointed out that the overall quality of play across last weekend was down compared to the rest of the season, and that is a factor that referees have to deal with as well, often leading to more penalties due to scrappy play.

SANZAR is pleased with the open nature of the competition this year, with overall penalties sitting at an average of 19.64 per game so far. While there is no specific target for the number of penalties during a game, fewer than 20 is viewed as desirable.

This has also led to an increase in the average time the ball is in play during games, up to almost 35 minutes, and a decrease in the average number of kicks per game, down to 41.

Bray opened up on the selection system used for the referees, likening it to how Super Rugby squads rotate their team according to performance, rather than dropping players altogether.

"Referees want to be involved in the big games as well," Bray said.

"They feel it when they underperform and when they are given the so-called lesser games.

"Referees are more likely to be dropped for a consistent trend in the way they officiate, rather than one 'stone-cold mistake'."

The referees chief also confirmed that he is set to have a meeting with IRB counterparts to work out how the television match official can be introduced to more areas of the game, specifically to cut out those ‘stone-cold mistakes’ such as knock-ons and forward passes.

While no rule changes have been locked in yet, Bray is hopeful that a trial can be organised this year so that new TMO powers could be in place in time for the start of next year’s Super Rugby season.
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
Staff member
I don't want to poke that article with a stick, but if Bray didn't see Franks coming in the side of that ruck where Gill was penalised, critically, nor the earlier blocking by McCaw on Gill, which was noticed by Blind Freddie and even the NZ commentators who often have an obstructed view on Kiwi infractions and see fewer of them than Freddie does - or saw them and thought they didn't warrant a mention - then maybe Bray should get another job.

On the matter of using the TV more: SANZAR should apply to the IRB to use the TMO as they do in France for the Top14 and ProD2. They can go back a long way if a doubtful event lead to a try.

For those who want to crack their knuckles and get to the keyboard to type out that it would waste too much time: I will save them some - it doesn't. You can watch Top14 for a whole season in Oz were we get two games a week on TV and not even realise that the French TMO protocol is different, so seldom is the extra stuff invoked.

I wouldn't advocate a more liberal use of the TMO in general play though - that would take up too much time IMO.
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Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
Staff member
Lyndon Bray

"On review of that game, the Reds No.1 (Greg Holmes) deserved to be penalised when he was.

"What concerned us was the use of the hand by the Crusaders No.1 (Ben Franks) … and I had a word to Bryce and to the Crusaders about that."

I think this is right, but the frustrating thing was in one scrum I noticed Ben Franks had his hand on the ground and would have fallen over had his 2nd rower not pushed him forward towards the Reds THP - but guess who got the penalty?

You're right.
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