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Refereeing decisions

tragic

Arch Winning (36)
Problem with the complexity of rugby rules is that if you slow-mo every game you can see a multitude of missed infringements.
Unfortunately last night there were a number of questionable penalties, particularly in the first half which directly resulted in points whereas the infringements the other way were either in a non kickable position or missed.
Ultimately if we'd made our kicks or not thrown the dodgy intercept it may have been a different outcome.
Thats what the ABs do when the rub of the green goes against them - up their game and take the whistle out of the equation.
 

John S

Alex Ross (28)
Anyone seen the blow up on Twitter about the boks physio being in touch while play on-going? Should the ref have done more to get them off the pitch?
 
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mst

Ken Catchpole (46)
Anyone seen the blow up on Twitter about the boks physio being in touch while play on-going? Should the ref have done more to get them off the pitch?

This - actively coaching the players. IMHO yes; WR needs to step up and take some actions.


Capture.JPG
 

Pfitzy

David Wilson (68)
I just watched a frame-by-frame on the scrum penalty against Tupou to validate my live assessment that it was utter poo.

My position has not changed. I thought Williams had a decent game but this was easily the worst call of the night. ABs march downfield and score almost exactly 2 minutes later, from a scrum just outside their own 22...
 

Bullrush

John Thornett (49)
That’s not what I said. It’s hard enough to beat the all blacks with a neutral ref, let alone with 4 x kiwis on the panel.
Are you saying that Kiwi refs don’t ref fairly? That they are reffing the game so that the ABs win?
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
There's no evidence anywhere that professional referees at test and provincial level are anything but honest and people should stop implying otherwise. Sure they make mistakes (just like the players do) and there's no problem with objective criticism of performance (just like for the players).

But for people to hint at or imply any form of bias or favouritism is not on.
 

Dan54

Michael Lynagh (62)
There's no evidence anywhere that professional referees at test and provincial level are anything but honest and people should stop implying otherwise. Sure they make mistakes (just like the players do) and there's no problem with objective criticism of performance (just like for the players).

But for people to hint at or imply any form of bias or favouritism is not on.

I agree even the implication of favouritism by any ref is well beyong any forms of decency even on rugby forums.
 

KOB1987

David Codey (61)
I’m not suggesting cheating though I can understand why it’s being construed as such. I’m merely saying it’s another disadvantage we have to encounter. I’ll retract my comment that we can’t win as that’s a bit strong, but you certainly aren’t going to convince me it’s not a disadvantage.
 

Derpus

Rod McCall (65)
Are you saying that Kiwi refs don’t ref fairly? That they are reffing the game so that the ABs win?

Unconscious bias plays a role in 100% of every decision ever made.

Shit there are studies that suggest you are more likely to get a favorable decision if a decision maker has eaten more recently (i think the specific case study was judges at parole hearings).

It's not that they are going out of their way to be bias or are doing anything unconscionable - it's more that it's inevitable. That's why ordinarily you have impartial refs where possible. If it wern't they case why would we ever bother with impartial refs?

Having said that I didn't see any overly egregious decisions this match.
 

Dctarget

Steve Williams (59)
There's no evidence anywhere that professional referees at test and provincial level are anything but honest and people should stop implying otherwise. Sure they make mistakes (just like the players do) and there's no problem with objective criticism of performance (just like for the players).

But for people to hint at or imply any form of bias or favouritism is not on.

Super+Rugby+Rd+17+Blues+v+Reds+F_wPUP_W8Z_x.jpg

This is what Egon thinks of your opinion.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Unconscious bias plays a role in 100% of every decision ever made.

Shit there are studies that suggest you are more likely to get a favorable decision if a decision maker has eaten more recently (i think the specific case study was judges at parole hearings).

It's not that they are going out of their way to be bias or are doing anything unconscionable - it's more that it's inevitable. That's why ordinarily you have impartial refs where possible. If it wern't they case why would we ever bother with impartial refs?

Having said that I didn't see any overly egregious decisions this match.

The studies in terms of referees all indicate that it's the influence of the crowd which impacts decisions rather than the inherent bias of the individual because of their nationality.


All refs are impartial, the implementation of 'neutral' referees is more one of perception than substance. You'll note that Super Rugby appointed referees from the home country for most of the last 5-10 years because all of the referees involved were appointed by the same people who monitor and rate their performance.

If really wanted to reduce referee bias, you would never let teams play at home where the crowd has an impact, rather than focussing in the simplistic idea that a referee from NZ is not capable of fairly applying the laws if a NZ team is playing in the game.

From European Soccer where all match officials are from countries other than the teams on the field. (my bold)

In this study, we investigated the presence of referee bias in the 2007–2014 UEFA Europa and Champions Leagues. We focused on referee bias for home teams and teams from the big five European soccer competitions, which we defined as the number of awarded yellow cards. Our estimates confirm the presence of a preferential treatment for home teams and teams from the big five competitions, which is heterogeneous on match characteristics. First, we confirmed the previous literature claiming that a running track separating the crowd from the pitch can reduce home and “big” team favouritism. Second, we investigated whether the introduction of a fifth and sixth referee in the UEFA Europa League (in the 2009–2010 season) and the UEFA Champions League (in the 2010–2011 season) reduced such a referee bias.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0227758
 

KOB1987

David Codey (61)
Unconscious bias plays a role in 100% of every decision ever made.

Shit there are studies that suggest you are more likely to get a favorable decision if a decision maker has eaten more recently (i think the specific case study was judges at parole hearings).

It's not that they are going out of their way to be bias or are doing anything unconscionable - it's more that it's inevitable. That's why ordinarily you have impartial refs where possible. If it wern't they case why would we ever bother with impartial refs?

Having said that I didn't see any overly egregious decisions this match.

Bingo.

This is my thinking, I just wasn't very good at explaining it!
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
I'd actually suggest within a Kiwi ref there may be an unconscious bias against the All Blacks, rather than for them.

They may be worried about a perception of being a home town Harry (an expression I just made up, roll with it people), so actively go out of their way to ensure the 50/50 penalties go in favour of the visitors.
 

KOB1987

David Codey (61)
Well I guess I'm fortunate that there's not too many people's opinion that I care about.

However, Seconds is an obvious case on the affirmative side of any debate about referee bias.
I'd actually suggest within a Kiwi ref there may be an unconscious bias against the All Blacks, rather than for them.

They may be worried about a perception of being a home town Harry (an expression I just made up, roll with it people), so actively go out of their way to ensure the 50/50 penalties go in favour of the visitors.

There is a referee out our way here notorious for this syndrome.

My point was on the premise that there are 4 x kiwis on the refereeing panel and it only takes one of them to have an unconscious bias to create the disadvantage that I was alluding to.
 

Dan54

Michael Lynagh (62)
Just sitting here watching a game from 1997 , if you want to see a ref that is very different, it worth watching it. He's a frenchman and while very very good at blowing whistle often, long and loud, he looks like he has been to the shool of mime from Marcem Marceau, it is indredible to watch.
 
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