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School sporting scholarships/recruitment

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Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Get with the times quick hands, it’s ok for the top grades to be more professional, Kids are resilient don’t sell them short

That's the point, it's not professional sport.

They get resilience from things such as working harder to improve skills and learning from the occasional defeat. Bringing kids into a team to fill a perceived weakness is the exact opposite of instilling resilience.

As I said earlier, we'll agree to disagree.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Oh Subbie....please read again.

There have been over 240 indigenous students pass through SJC since the inception of the fund back in 2001. In that time TWO students (Dylan Ashby the other) from that cohort has played for the 1st XV. But the fund has produced many young men who have become teachers, soldiers, doctors, local leaders and solicitors all giving back to their community. A ONE has become a Wallaby.

Yawnnnnn

I was going to make the same point, although I think that there is more than one who has made the firsts. But the point is that the bursaries are a social justice activity of the school and the law of averages says that some of them will be ok at sport. Some ignorant folk make the same unfounded assumption about islanders at Newington, not all of whom play firsts or in their age group A team. Certainly in the age groups that I saw play in 2018, there were islander boys scattered from the top team to the bottom team as one would expect. (as I noted a few pages back before the thread took an unfortunate detour into nastiness).

As an aside, for the past two or three years Newington have sent two staff members a year on secondment to Tupou College in Tonga to teach and to assist in syllabus development. From next year English at Tupou will follow the Newington programme, and possibly maths as well. The Tupou College band and choir now make annual visits to Newington - absolutely beautiful singing voices. Each year a group of Year 9 boys go to Tonga in the June holidays for a cultural exhange. The exchanges are great for the boys from both schools. Dr Mulford has changed the entire focus of the bursary programme so that the unfortunate events of 2013 will not be repeated.
 

southsider

Arch Winning (36)
That's the point, it's not professional sport.

They get resilience from things such as working harder to improve skills and learning from the occasional defeat. Bringing kids into a team to fill a perceived weakness is the exact opposite of instilling resilience.

As I said earlier, we'll agree to disagree.


There’s a difference to being more professional and actually being professional

Until they get paid cash and sign contracts it’s not professional - period, your argument against it is null and void
 

Up the Guts

Andrew Slack (58)
There’s a difference to being more professional and actually being professional

Until they get paid cash and sign contracts it’s not professional - period, your argument against it is null and void
So if they’re not professional why do they need to train like professionals?

I think it’s easy to neglect the mental side of playing 1st XV and completing the HSC. 50% of the HSC is assessment based, boys can be faced with multiple assessments or exams in one week that have a material effect on their overall ATAR and then have the pressure of an increasingly professional game on the weekend. In the days of 100% exams a poor result in a school task or assessment didn’t levy same amount of stress as it does now.

It’s not to say that year 12 is a necessarily melancholy experience for those juggling 1st XV commitments and aspirations for a high ATAR but it can be extremely draining and stressful at times. I’m not sure schools will roll back the levels of training or coaching but I see no need to try and accelerate them through increasing professionalism even further.
 

southsider

Arch Winning (36)
So if they’re not professional why do they need to train like professionals?

I think it’s easy to neglect the mental side of playing 1st XV and completing the HSC. 50% of the HSC is assessment based, boys can be faced with multiple assessments or exams in one week that have a material effect on their overall ATAR and then have the pressure of an increasingly professional game on the weekend. In the days of 100% exams a poor result in a school task or assessment didn’t levy same amount of stress as it does now.

It’s not to say that year 12 is a necessarily melancholy experience for those juggling 1st XV commitments and aspirations for a high ATAR but it can be extremely draining and stressful at times. I’m not sure schools will roll back the levels of training or coaching but I see no need to try and accelerate them through increasing professionalism even further.

Ya kidding if you think the training they do equates to that of pro football teams, it’s not even the same as u20’s RL

I have you guys arguing these points about juggling academics and sports at a gps school as if I didn’t do exactly that myself, I know exactly what it’s like and I get the impression that everyone arguing against it is older and hasn’t experienced this first hand.

To be honest I think they’ve reached their peak of “professionalism” they can’t really take it any further than it already is outside of broadcasting it on tv like they used to do on ABC occasionally
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
Ya kidding if you think the training they do equates to that of pro football teams, it’s not even the same as u20’s RL

I have you guys arguing these points about juggling academics and sports at a gps school as if I didn’t do exactly that myself, I know exactly what it’s like and I get the impression that everyone arguing against it is older and hasn’t experienced this first hand.

To be honest I think they’ve reached their peak of “professionalism” they can’t really take it any further than it already is outside of broadcasting it on tv like they used to do on ABC occasionally
It’s telling that you choose not to outline the number of sessions and their duration. then add 2 hours a day minimum,as you say no one lives near their schools anymore.


Make up you mind about professionalism,a page or so ago you were talking about beefing up the comp with ring in’s all over the place to make it more “professional “
So are we at the peak, or just fiddling around the edges until we embrace mercenaries for all?
 

southsider

Arch Winning (36)
It’s telling that you choose not to outline the number of sessions and their duration. then add 2 hours a day minimum,as you say no one lives near their schools anymore.


Make up you mind about professionalism,a page or so ago you were talking about beefing up the comp with ring in’s all over the place to make it more “professional “
So are we at the peak, or just fiddling around the edges until we embrace mercenaries for all?


Don’t be a fuckwit, I didn’t answer it because I thought it was rhetorical. I thought if you were arguing the point you’d be well aware of how many trainings they do and how long they go for. I know what they are, I did it. What’s your experience?

Im all for scholarships, if schools want to doll them out, let them who cares. Does that make them more professional? Maybe a little bit not really, I still think they’ve pretty much reached the peak.
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
Really,the best you can do is a mindless schoolboy taunt?
Not much value for money in that education....

Your the one calling for this comp to be more professional.
I’m saying the workload now is too much.
I note,that again,you avoid listing the current number of sessions,and their duration.
Don’t you know?
 

Up the Guts

Andrew Slack (58)
Ya kidding if you think the training they do equates to that of pro football teams, it’s not even the same as u20’s RL

I have you guys arguing these points about juggling academics and sports at a gps school as if I didn’t do exactly that myself, I know exactly what it’s like and I get the impression that everyone arguing against it is older and hasn’t experienced this first hand.

To be honest I think they’ve reached their peak of “professionalism” they can’t really take it any further than it already is outside of broadcasting it on tv like they used to do on ABC occasionally
I’m very aware of students juggling academics and sports. Working 18h days on end is not healthy.
 

Black & White

Jim Clark (26)
The simple fact is that professionalism and scholarships are here to stay. People may resent such an intrusion into schoolboy Rugby. But Professional Schoolboy Rugby already exists in the Queensland GPS and NSW is catching up. Its only a matter of time for the NSW GPS to follow in Queensland's path. Their is simply too much money and prestige involved, amongst the competing schools to do otherwise. Further, too many Old Boys have deep pockets.

How Schools implement such a professional approach, will be entirely dependant on each and every school. So when we mention school workloads that is a matter of joint academic and sport planning within the school. Cadets at ADFA have intense workloads and many are only a year older or the same age as year 12 students.

As a former Boarding House Master, House Tutor and Boys Mentor I know from personal experience, that if done professionally, there will be time for both academics, sports training and a social life. In this matter, Boarding from own personal experience is the bast solution, as it removes the issue of travel from the equation.

Schools usually have "Live in" Boarding House Tutors and Mentors to guide students in these matters. Its a matter of effective leadership from within the school. If such leadership is lacking, that school needs new faces in certain leadership positions
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
There’s a difference to being more professional and actually being professional

Until they get paid cash and sign contracts it’s not professional - period, your argument against it is null and void

You play word games and then you seek to dismiss a view just because you don't agree to it.

There are two views, you have one and I have a different one - neither are null and void. Using terms like that just discredits your argument.

I notice you didn't address the resilience part.
 

southsider

Arch Winning (36)
Really,the best you can do is a mindless schoolboy taunt?
Not much value for money in that education..

Your the one calling for this comp to be more professional.
I’m saying the workload now is too much.
I note,that again,you avoid listing the current number of sessions,and their duration.
Don’t you know?

Not really a taunt, just calling you out for your behaviour

I note that you again have failed to tell us about your experiences in this, don’t you have any?

See I can do exactly the same as what you do, it’s not hard.......
 

southsider

Arch Winning (36)
You play word games and then you seek to dismiss a view just because you don't agree to it.

There are two views, you have one and I have a different one - neither are null and void. Using terms like that just discredits your argument.

I notice you didn't address the resilience part.

It’s not word play, it’s basic grammar there’s a difference between being more professional and actually being professional athletes, surely you acknowledge that

You’re more entitled to your opinion but you’re basing it off the fact that these kids are supposedly pro athletes, which by definition they are not so the argument becomes moot

To be honest I just thought it was a really shit point that didn’t need addressing. Resilience can be formed many different ways both internally, fighting for a position against other players or externally through playing games etc just because you bring in a few scholarship kids doesn’t suddenly mean the rest of the 1st XV suddenly lose the ability to be resilient
 

southsider

Arch Winning (36)
I’m really curious to know and no one has been able to answer this so far, for everyone arguing against all this. How old are you? When was the last time you competed at a 1st XV level? When was the last time you coached a school team and were exposed to the ins and outs of it all?
 

Joker

Alan Cameron (40)
Lets see if we can summarize this debate into pros and cons of having sporting scholarships in independent schools.
If we can collect these, then debate can become clearer. Here are some of my thoughts

Pros- Titles for the school, name recognition, exposure to rugby programs beyond school, education for the individual

Cons- lack of junior player development not required, booster influence (arms race), culture of student body becomes "us" and "them", results driven programs rather than skill development, professional coaches making demands on teachers, lack of staff coaching students, money being spent on sport more than educational programs, the majority carry the financial burden for a few.

Lets start there.
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
I’m really curious to know and no one has been able to answer this so far, for everyone arguing against all this. How old are you? When was the last time you competed at a 1st XV level? When was the last time you coached a school team and were exposed to the ins and outs of it all?
As I am with you.
You keep telling us that you’ve been personally involved in one of these programs.
You state unequivocally that the load is not onerous,yet when asked details of when/how often/how long, you deflect.
The only possible reasons to deflect,are either you don’t know,or you do,and it totally contradicts your assertions about workloads.
 
The Headmasters of the GPS, CAS and ISA Schools wouldn't allow the Rugby governing bodies to march in and start dictating terms, so an amicable and cooperative attitude would need to be adopted by both parties to consider how schools could assist with the future of Australian rugby as far as developing players for post-school rugby is concerned.

Although, having said that, the AFL made significant inroads into the traditional rugby playing private schools. The AFL were and are cashed up and have been well managed. They came bearing gifts, and obviously made offers too good to refuse.
To say they stole Australian rugby's lunch is an understatement. I was nearly going to say it was treason but that's probably too strong a word. It was probably just a sign of the times where former rugby playing old boys lost influence or it was a product of political correctness and ''fairness'' to all students etc etc .... and all that bullshit.

Australian rugby on the other hand is broke and has been badly managed with a distinct lack of vision shown towards grassroots development. They had been thinking from the top down instead of from the bottom up.
Where are the future Club, State and National players supposed to come from?

But that isnt to say the rugby governing bodies couldn't achieve working in with the schools to produce more rugby players for the future.

That's the main point. It's not about opening the doors to indiscriminate ''professionalism''. That's the wrong word to use.

It's about creating opportunities and getting more rugby players on the paddock post school.
Of course its a gamble because those favoured players may choose to play league anyway, but you know what they say: ''you'll never never know if you never never go"
Sad to say, the private schools are one of the few wells from which to draw water for Australian rugby
And the Clubs.

The State schools are just about stuffed as far as playing rugby is concerned; that's compared to what they used to be in the good ole days. I'm not sure what's being done to regenerate the game in that arena.

I'm all for little Johnny getting a leg up to play rugby at a private school if his parents couldn't otherwise afford it.
I'm dead set against little Tommy, whose father is a well healed businessman for instance, gaining a scholarship because he's a champion player, so the school can win a premiership.

Cant be regulated? I'm not so sure about that. Admitting that would be like putting up the white flag.
 

southsider

Arch Winning (36)
As I am with you.
You keep telling us that you’ve been personally involved in one of these programs.
You state unequivocally that the load is not onerous,yet when asked details of when/how often/how long, you deflect.
The only possible reasons to deflect,are either you don’t know,or you do,and it totally contradicts your assertions about workloads.


Didn’t say not onerous I just refuted claims that the load was so bad that it wasn’t worth doing for scholarship kids who wernt “local”, schools hard at times for everyone but it is more than manageable

I’m not deflecting at all, you can look at my post history, I’ve mentioned several posts over the years alluding to the fact I’ve been part of these programs. I’m enjoying the fact that You have absolutely zero idea about what they actually do, do you? Why are you arguing against it if you have no idea?? When it’s never affected you??

Where’s your evidence that the work load is too much for these kids? There’s no statistical data to back it up, there’s no first hand reports I’ve seen from anyone that there’s enough kids struggling with the workload to make it a recognised problem, no reports of kids dropping out of their rugby programs to focus on their studies. All I see is most 1st XV players getting decent marks, attending university and the schools overall performing well.

As I said previously 30+ kids per school in gps and cas every single year do this, it’s nothing new, they’re playing well on the field and getting decent marks off it.
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
So you know,but you won’t say.
Only one reason for that champ......

I do know the workload these programs require from participants,and have posted details,to support my claims.

Instead,all we get from you is a toddler response “because so”

Does this latest post mean you’ve moved on from your recent belief that the Schools need to get more professional about their Rugby?
 

southsider

Arch Winning (36)
So you know,but you won’t say.
Only one reason for that champ..

I do know the workload these programs require from participants,and have posted details,to support my claims.

Instead,all we get from you is a toddler response “because so”

Does this latest post mean you’ve moved on from your recent belief that the Schools need to get more professional about their Rugby?

Thanks bud

Ok sure you know them, no worries at all

Toddler response of “because so” that’s exactly what you’re doing, like exactly. I asked in my last post show me the evidence and you have??? Zero, none, squat, absolutely no evidence what so ever
 
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