Sydney Subbies 2014

[Po'sCock]

Cheers all for the advice. Once I find a place, I'll sniff out my local team and have a gander. Looking forward to getting into it!

 

[JSRF10]

Irish beat Rouse Hill 10-7 with a last minute try, very flat game from us and never really got going. 2nd grade won 46-0 and 3rd grade lost 15-5

 

[Pfitzy]

To be honest, that scoreline shocked me a little. Will be interesting to see the team sheet for the Renegades.

 

[HarryElite]

Great to see the Shammies doing so well. They just inflicted the first loss of the season for Colleagues with a bonus point victory and at woolhara oval too in Kentwell cup. The 2nds also got up too.

At the same time on oval 3, I saw a bit of redfield against convicts, I believe the score was 105-0... Impressive. I'd say redfield would give a few 1st grade d1 and d2 teams a good run for their money!

 

[Pfitzy]

I think a few of those D1/2 clubs would take one look at the speed of Redfield's side and try their damndest not to give them any ball

 

[Heavyd]

Any truth to the rumour that Campbelltown are looking at ditching subbies and moving to the Wollongong comp? Travel is killing their player numbers and the prospect of Div 2 with its large contingent of northern sydney based clubs will only make travel worse.
Also hearing St Ives have picked up a heap of former Hornsby players in their efforts to avoid relegation.

 

[Whale berry]

Any truth to the rumour that Campbelltown are looking at ditching subbies and moving to the Wollongong comp? Travel is killing their player numbers and the prospect of Div 2 with its large contingent of northern sydney based clubs will only make travel worse.
Also hearing St Ives have picked up a heap of former Hornsby players in their efforts to avoid relegation.

I havnt heard the C'Town rumour but given their lack of numbers this year I wouldn't be surprised.
They have been in and out of the Illawarra comp for years.
I think they first came into the old 2nd Division in about 77/78 stayed for a couple of years then went back to Illawarra, then came back to Subbies.
It seems as though as the club goes up and down the "cycle" they chop and change comps rather than manage the cycle.

 

[Heavyd]

Maybe they'd find 3rd Div easier on the travel. If they go to illawarra comp it will prove problematic for subbies proposed new Div structure next year.

 

[Tommy Tudehope]

Maybe they'd find 3rd Div easier on the travel. If they go to illawarra comp it will prove problematic for subbies proposed new Div structure next year.

Indeed. Would be a shame to seem them leave although it does seem that this discussion pops up every year. Subbies can't afford to lose another club let alone one from the top tier.

 

[Whale berry]

Indeed. Would be a shame to seem them leave although it does seem that this discussion pops up every year. Subbies can't afford to lose another club let alone one from the top tier.

Spot on, but they (C'town committee) have been talking about it since last year.
Given Illawarra only have 2 grades and colts it could be a better fit for them.
BUT it would leave a hole in div1/div2.
I think looking at the lack of numbers together with the poor results across all grades you could see 1 or 2 other clubs pulling the pin on Div1.

 

[JSRF10]

Good wins for 1st and 2nd grade for Irish on Saturday, 3rds had another tight loss.

Big game for all 3 grades against Quins on Saturday, depth will be severely tested though as this was marked as a bye and lots of wifes/partners would have planned trips etc.

 

[Pfitzy]

If the travel to the north shore sucks, getting down to the 'gong won't suck any less. Subbies will make two zones for Division Six but won't consider measures for top divisions where change is clearly needed. 5 grades does not work.

 

[Ozzie Bob]

If the travel to the north shore sucks, getting down to the 'gong won't suck any less. Subbies will make two zones for Division Six but won't consider measures for top divisions where change is clearly needed. 5 grades does not work.

Pfitzy

What changes would you make to the top divisions? I do think that 6 grades is a big ask when you are looking for a minimum of 90 players a week.

There are some horrible road trips in subbies. I dont know how Campbelltown handle having to go north to Beecroft, Iggies, Knox, and Mosman. Inner West for Drummoyne , St Pats and Petersham, and then all the way east to Colleagues.

I know there was plenty of talk of Blue Mountains not wanting to be in div 2 because every second week they have to travel along the pacific highway (Barker, St Ives, Lindfield and Brothers) and not forgetting the long treck to UNSW and Oatley. I would love to be Blueys bus company!

 

[Whale berry]

If the travel to the north shore sucks, getting down to the 'gong won't suck any less. Subbies will make two zones for Division Six but won't consider measures for top divisions where change is clearly needed. 5 grades does not work.

You are right about the travel in the Illawarra comp, Nowra and Kiama are still a bit of a journey from C'Town
C'towns issue is they appear not to have managed the player cycle well, it has happened before.
They go back to Illawarra regroup and come back again.

5 grades in Div1 has worked for the majority of clubs for the majority of time, since the the rejig of subbies 15 odd years ago.

We will just have to agree to disagree on this one, (as we have done before).

The reality is if you are going to have 4 competitive grades you need a 5th grade otherwise with injuries and mid season other activities (skiing, travel and mates weddings) you will be doubling up 4ths and 3rds and so begins the down ward spiral.

In terms of moving forward I agree that regionalisation for the Div 3, Div4 and below is essential but I would leave Div1 and Div 2 as Sydney wide comps with promotion/relegation etc.

 

[Tommy Tudehope]

You are right about the travel in the Illawarra comp, Nowra and Kiama are still a bit of a journey from C'Town
C'towns issue is they appear not to have managed the player cycle well, it has happened before.
They go back to Illawarra regroup and come back again.

5 grades in Div1 has worked for the majority of clubs for the majority of time, since the the rejig of subbies 15 odd years ago.

We will just have to agree to disagree on this one, (as we have done before).

The reality is if you are going to have 4 competitive grades you need a 5th grade otherwise with injuries and mid season other activities (skiing, travel and mates weddings) you will be doubling up 4ths and 3rds and so begins the down ward spiral.

In terms of moving forward I agree that regionalisation for the Div 3, Div4 and below is essential but I would leave Div1 and Div 2 as Sydney wide comps with promotion/relegation etc.

Agree with that Whale Berry. Shouldn't have to change the structure of the comp for one poor performing club. I hope C/Town stay.

Disagree on the making Div 3 and 4 regional. I think this would deter the aspirational growth from the the lower division to the top. Ultimately every club should be trying to grow - more teams, more players, more beers.

 

[mous]

Disagree on the making Div 3 and 4 regional. I think this would deter the aspirational growth from the the lower division to the top. Ultimately every club should be trying to grow - more teams, more players, more beers.

I play in Division 6 and enjoy the conference/region split (Although I do think Merrylands got the short end of the stick). I actually think the conference/region split could appeal to defunct clubs or new aspiring clubs to rejoin/join subbies rugby because of lower travel constraints. The conference split for mine also places more emphasis on local derbys and creates rivalry between the two conferences come finals time.

Although I'd like to see the same thing occur in Division 3 & 4, I don't think there is enough teams to create a conference/region layout in those divisions. Who knows what is happening with Division 5 next year...

 

[Pfitzy]

Pfitzy

What changes would you make to the top divisions? I do think that 6 grades is a big ask when you are looking for a minimum of 90 players a week.

At the most simplistic level, the structure of Subbies - requiring you to add a team as you advance, isolates rugby into its heartland on the north and eastern shores.

In the case of clubs like Campbelltown, Blue Mountains, Hawkesbury, etc. you end up having success, then being forced up into a Division with the requirement for another grade and the same old travel issues.

As I've stated elsewhere - if the Top Division was comprised of clubs fielding 3 Grades, then the spread of competition would be much easier, and a conference system could be employed.

Colts would need to be investigated further, but I think if you're serious about age-grade rugby for your club then it also needs to be a standalone competition like the Radford Cup.

The conferences need not be set on strict geographic boundaries, particularly where there is congestion. But at the very least, you could have clubs like Campbelltown minimise their exposure to going all the way to the north shore like St Ives. That is a fucking long day already.

"But what about us?" say Colleagues and Mosman, who can field 6 or 7 Grades if they feel like it on any given Saturday. Well, perhaps you go into two conferences. Not 100% sure on that one because its so far out of my experience as someone who has seen 0 of 3 grades travel from Rouse Hill to St George.

What I DO know is that rugby may look rosy to Subbies, because the old boys association thinks so, but its hardly going to do more than shrink as time goes by, costs go up, and new ideas aren't sought.

Maybe its just easier for Western Sydney to start its own competition once the Rams fire up, and play challenge matches against the East.

 

[Heavyd]

Good discussion going here.

DIV 1: Beecroft are busting to move to DIV 2
DIV 2: UNSW coaches want DIV 1...players not so convinced
DIV 2: Newport no interest Div 1
DIV 2: Blue mountains want back to DIV 3
DIV 3: Hills looks strong enough to go to DIV 2
DIV 3: Hornsby and Briars clubs fighting for their existance

An honest assessment where rugby is as a code needs to be made at seasons end with some big calls needed from subbies and honesty from clubs. Rugby player depth is not what it was 15 years ago and apart from the big 6 (balmain, colleagues, Mosman, Petersham, St pats, drummoyne) all is not as rosey as it may seem. 5 teams + colts to many and so is 4 teams in DIV 3. Big clubs can enter multiple DIVs if there are that strong

 

[Pfitzy]

Rugby player depth is not what it was 15 years ago and apart from the big 6 (balmain, colleagues, Mosman, Petersham, St pats, drummoyne)

Money has changed everything - Balmain and Drummoyne have been trying to buy premierships for years. And Subbies have basically been told to their face "good luck enforcing amateurism".

There was a list of Divisional winners on the Subbies site a few years back - top three Divisions, same old same old.

Bottom three - "who are those blokes? There was a club there? Wow they won a couple so what happened to them?"

They form, they flicker, they die.

 

[Pfitzy]

Thing is, Campbelltown's nearest other Subbies club is now Oatley, and that is STILL a 40 minute drive! They're in a shit of a spot as far as rugby goes.

If you split the top 4 divisions into rough areas, you could compile them like this:

EAST - Balmain, Colleagues, Drummoyne, Petersham, St Patricks, UNSW, Briars, Waverley, Convicts, Harlequins, Irish

NORTH - Beecroft, Knox, Mosman, Old Ignatians, Barker OB, Brothers, Forest, Hunters Hill, Lindfield, Newport, St Ives
NORTHWEST - Epping, Hawkesbury Valley, Hills, Hornsby, Kings OB, UWS Hawkesbury, Blacktown, Mac Uni, Redfield OB, Rouse Hill, Blue Mountains
SOUTHWEST - Campbelltown, Oatley.
I excluded Canterbury as they only have two grades.
Hell of a lot of travel if you're working Saturday morning...