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The Wallabies Thread

joeyjohnz

Sydney Middleton (9)
Well, he probably will. The Wallabies results in the last couple of years have been distinctly better when he's played.

I agree that Simmons is a better set piece operator but Coleman is comfortably our best overall lock.

I think Simmons form this year has been on par with Coleman if not better. He's shown a level of physicality that he never showed with the Reds. I hope they both play.

Whilst Rodda, Tui & Arnold are great players; if we're going to go in with two 7's and an 8 who rarely jumps we need our best lineout operators on the field. The lineout success rate (and spoil rates on D) are comically different when you compare teams with Simmons and without Simmons.

Rodda & Tui's development have been severely hampered by having a coach who was never much of a lineout option. They're just too slow across the ground.
 

Slim 293

Nathan Sharpe (72)
I think Simmons form this year has been on par with Coleman if not better. He's shown a level of physicality that he never showed with the Reds. I hope they both play.

Whilst Rodda, Tui & Arnold are great players; if we're going to go in with two 7's and an 8 who rarely jumps we need our best lineout operators on the field. The lineout success rate (and spoil rates on D) are comically different when you compare teams with Simmons and without Simmons.

Rodda & Tui's development have been severely hampered by having a coach who was never much of a lineout option. They're just too slow across the ground.



Arnold was the Australian leader for lineout takes in Super Rugby this year............

Coleman was the Australian leader for lineout steals.

It also shouldn't be forgotten that the Wallabies lineout has struggled when Simmons has been there (and when he hasn't), so while I don't disagree with him being on the bench for his set piece expertise and experience, there's no guarantee that starting him will make much of a difference in the lineout.
 

joeyjohnz

Sydney Middleton (9)
I should have stipulated: when you compare the same team with Simmons and when Simmons isn’t on the park; success and spoil rates drop dramatically.
Simmons has suffered teams with weak jumping lock partners along with duel 7’s. You just can’t run a successful line out with Kane Douglas as you’re only other primary target. I don’t expect Arnold or Coleman to either.
 

Slim 293

Nathan Sharpe (72)
I should have stipulated: when you compare the same team with Simmons and when Simmons isn’t on the park; success and spoil rates drop dramatically.


I'm not so sure about that.......... during the English series our lineout functioned significantly better in the test that he didn't play.

As I said, happy for him to be on the bench, but overall he doesn't offer as much as the other three options going forward, and his set piece prowess has not always translated to the test arena.

And hopefully we'll also go with the likes of TPN, Latu or Faingaa at hooker - BPA's lineout throwing has been absolutely woeful.
 

Brumby Runner

Tim Horan (67)
'What confuses me is that so many Tahs' supporters posting here in the early days also held a similar belief, but it (magically) turned around as soon as he moved to the Tahs.'

Sorry mate, but calling 'Bulls#@t' on that one. Simmons has had an ok year by his standard but besides an improved lineout has had fairly minimal impact. No tahs fans that I know even wanted him on the roster including me. Anyway, you can believe whatever you want.

JJ I didn't say or even imply that all Tahs fans now consider him a proper standard Wallaby. Your comment about no one you know even wanted him on the Tahs roster just confirms my earlier statement that many Tahs posters here didn't rate him at all when he played for the Reds.

It is a fact though that many Tahs posters now defend his selections as furiously as they defend Cheika in so many other ways, eg the Pooper, no backup plan for No 10 over the past two or three years, and so on. I am encouraged by your skepticism of Rob Simmons' worth to the Tahs, and accept that as evidence that not all Tahs fans see the world only through true blue glasses.
 

Brumby Runner

Tim Horan (67)
Arnold was the Australian leader for lineout takes in Super Rugby this year....

Coleman was the Australian leader for lineout steals.

It also shouldn't be forgotten that the Wallabies lineout has struggled when Simmons has been there (and when he hasn't), so while I don't disagree with him being on the bench for his set piece expertise and experience, there's no guarantee that starting him will make much of a difference in the lineout.

Facts just won't wash it with some, Slim. There is sfa difference between all of the top locks as far as lineout operations are concerned. The real skill required at lineout time must be the hooker being able to lob the ball precisely to a spot, and at a height, to allow the nominated lock to take it as planned. Lineouts these days are very dynamic organisations, and hookers have a lot to contend with to get the throw just right. Interestingly, even Braveheart above has identified McCaffrey's* throwing as the fault of a poorly performing Tahs lineout rather than the role of Simmons.

We just wait now for the excuses to fly around about how Arnold and Coleman had multiple more opportunities than Simmons had becuase good old Rob called so many other jumpers in the Tahs lineout to take the catch. :(:mad:

EDIT : Fitzpatrick as corrected by BH. Thank you.
 

Brumby Runner

Tim Horan (67)
And as for the crap about Simmons being the TH lock of choice for THPs, this furphy gets a run every so often on these threads. It is always couched in terms of props have been reported as saying this or that, never a direct quote from a prop that I've ever seen.

So, who precisely are the props who could have made such a statement with authority? No good looking at Reds THPs who only ever had Simmons or some lesser locks behind them. Must have been the Wallabies THP if there is any truth in the notion. That reduces the options to just about Kepu and maybe Allan Ala'alatoa. Could someone please point us to the precise quotes from either of these gentlemen?

Looks to me to be no more than another urban legend.
 

RoffsChoice

Jim Lenehan (48)
Many locks can make a claim on their own ability, but the true legends in the position are so often mentioned in the same breath as their locking partner: Matfield and Botha; Johnson and Kay; and I bet Whitelock and Retallick will soon be joining that list. It's telling how good Eales was that he is usually mentioned alone and not alongside someone like Giffin or the sort.

Hell, even now, if you want to start at lock for Australia, one of your main skills should be "partners well with Coleman". Simmons formed good partnerships with both Horwill and Carter, but, apart from that, has just been a good worker. He makes his tackles, he wins his lineouts, he sometimes tries to decapitate a member of the opposition and gets sent off at a time when you wish he wouldn't. I like him, but I don't want him in our 23 ahead of guys like Coleman, Rodda, Philip, or Arnold.

Ability to support the prop in the scrum shouldn't be some silver bullet; it's their job. Simmons is supposed to be good behind the tighthead prop? Cool, glad to hear he can do his job. Likewise, lineout caller isn't so important to a team that we should be picking someone down the pecking order in the same way we would for a goalkicker. Worst case, you just avoid any trick moves and throw to front, middle, or back. If they contest, good luck to them, but you're a thousand times more likely to lose based on a bad throw than you are a lock who isn't a "recognised lineout caller".
 

TSR

Geoff Shaw (53)
I know this wasn’t the central point of your post RC - but I do generally consider that Eales benefitted greatly from playing with the likes of McCall, Garrick Morgan & Giffin. All outstanding locks and complemented Eales well.

For me, Eales & McCall are the best pair we’ve had over my period watching rugby and match up well with the best pairs up there. McCall was a fantastic player in his own right and probably doesn’t get the credit he deserves.

It is worth noting that teams have won the WC without necessarily having the best front row, back row, halves or outside backs at the time they won, but every team who has won has had the best locking pair at that particular time (IMO).
 

Derpus

Rod McCall (65)
Fitzpatrick.

He lost form in every aspect of his game late in the season (which sucked for the Tahs).
Gibson also persisted with him for far too long.

I can see the inconsistency though. When Simmons arrived and the lineout was good, he's a genius. When the lineout falls to shit its not his fault?

Anyways, i doubt the reserve lock will have a terribly large influence on the game so it's odd that we are getting bogged down in it.

To'omua is available, does he make the 23? only in a 5-3 split i would have thought.
 

Braveheart81

James Horwill (77)
Staff member
To'omua is available, does he make the 23? only in a 5-3 split i would have thought.


I think we'll go back to 5:3 with Hodge starting at 13.

To'omua seems likely to wear the 22 jersey in my opinion.

Without Hodge on the bench we don't have the versatility to play a 6:2 bench without a lot of reshuffling.

The interesting thing will be who wears the 23 jersey. Will it be Rona as the reserve 13 or will Folau be the reserve 13 and we can pick someone like Banks in the 23 jersey?
 

Derpus

Rod McCall (65)
I'd prefer Banks over Rona and Maddocks. I guess Rona can cover wing too, but he's been pretty poop.

Not really happy that any of the above have a potential Wallabies birth though.
 

Rebels3

Jim Lenehan (48)
I think we'll go back to 5:3 with Hodge starting at 13.

To'omua seems likely to wear the 22 jersey in my opinion.

Without Hodge on the bench we don't have the versatility to play a 6:2 bench without a lot of reshuffling.

The interesting thing will be who wears the 23 jersey. Will it be Rona as the reserve 13 or will Folau be the reserve 13 and we can pick someone like Banks in the 23 jersey?

Agree with this.

Bench will probably be Phipps, To'omua (to cover 10/12) and Rona (cover 11, 14, 13).

DHP will cover the 15 role if injuries occur, with Hodge or Rona to fill the wing.

With the injuries to Kurindrani and Kerevi it kinda forces the hand of Hodge and Rona been in the 23 (one at 13 the other on the bench). Banks or Maddocks would probably be the preferred if one of these players were available as they provide more impact from the bench
 

Brumby Runner

Tim Horan (67)
Gibson also persisted with him for far too long.

I can see the inconsistency though. When Simmons arrived and the lineout was good, he's a genius. When the lineout falls to shit its not his fault?

Anyways, i doubt the reserve lock will have a terribly large influence on the game so it's odd that we are getting bogged down in it.

To'omua is available, does he make the 23? only in a 5-3 split i would have thought.

My main point Derpus is that I'd like to see a bit of rotation go on between the best of the locks. Any combination of Coleman, Rodda and Arnold will function better as a starting locking pair than one with Rob Simmons in it. Therefore, I'd have one of those three on the bench in favour of playing Simmons as a reserve.
 

Rugbynutter39

Steve Williams (59)
I get exactly where you're coming from.

And where I'm coming from is that Cheika isn't going to focus a large amount of attention on getting a bench lock to the relevant level so they can be the backup lineout caller to Coleman in the limited time available before the RWC next year. I think that will remain Simmons' role for now.

It would appear that Cheika sees Rodda as the workrate lock he wants starting (rather than Arnold) so he doesn't want his spot to be on the bench.
I think Simmons been better this year and perhaps not given enough credit for some of his strengths as not many allrounders like retallick. I think Simmons is good bench option and probably one of the minority on here who think that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Rugbynutter39

Steve Williams (59)
Had the Tahs recruited Coleman instead, their scrum and line out would both be average.

Simmons has long been commended by props for the added support he provides at scrum time. Whilst not a slight on his compatriots it's definitely a noted difference by our front rowers. There's been many a quote on this over the past few years. When you throw in his line out prowess which is so far beyond his peers it's not funny, I'd pick Simmons every day of the week and twice on Sundays. Why?

Coleman won't win you a match; but a shit line out can certainly lose you one.
I agree there is no way I would be discarding Simmons so quickly as provides stability to the scrum and very good line out technician and work rate whilst better this year.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

lou75

Ron Walden (29)
I would think the Wallabies need some kind of player and coach renewal now:
Sekope Kefu front rower ten years in the squad
Kurtle Beal centre six or seven years in the squad
Pocock back rower ten years in the squad
Hooper back rower six years in the squad
Folau full back five years in the squad
Foley fly half five years in the squad can't kick under pressure
Will Genia nine years in the squad
Scott Sio five years in the squad
Rob Simmons eight years in the squad
Nick Phipps six years in the squad
Cheika coach for four years Wallabies coach previously Tahs coach won 2014 Super Rugby
where's the new blood? How can we expect this batch of players to win now if they haven't been able to consistently win for the past six or seven years?
 

RugbyReg

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
Where’s the new blood? We’ve already had three this year (Timu, BPA, Samu). Last year we saw the likes of Hanigan, Hardwick, Powell, Dempsey, Rona, Rodda, Koroibete, Tui, Uelese and Tupou.

The year before we had Latu, Robertson, Naivalu, Hodge, Coleman, AAA, DHP, Arnold and Kerevi.

That’s not too bad talent intro in my eyes.
 

lou75

Ron Walden (29)
true, but I would say that we need a whole lot more new talent - but yes, I take your point on those boys
 
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