Where To For Club Rugby? The Real Third Tier.

[The Honey Badger]

Interesting that Peter Vlandys wants a conference system for NRL to enable a Sydney only conference.

I actually think he is on the right path but will struggle to convince all the NRL clubs its in their interest.

What SS and Hospital cup should try aim to be is the leading Sydney and Brisbane based competitions and own the local tribalism that is lost in a National comp. Running a National club comp is a logistical nightmare , costly and unlikely to engage fans.

Somehow, Rugby needs to find a way to break into League heartland. Maybe invite the Newtown Jets or North Sydney Bears to run a team in SS. Not sure how that would happen, but is the sort of thinking we need to attract wider appeal than just the Eastern and Northern Suburbs .

Somehow, we need a semi professional tier and it needs to build on what exists.

My thoughts are the struggling clubs should relegate to 2nd Grade - similar to what the struggling schools did in GPS.

As for the NRC, I thought it was a great concept that failed to fire. If it were to continue in any form, then make it representative rugby and super condense it, (bit like SOO league) - Not sure how this works, but needs to engage every single Club rugby person. The Epitome of club rugby should be selection in NRC. Crowds and viewership should reflect it.


Post 1, long way to go to pass The Where to for Super Rugby thread. Humble beginnings. Post away

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Interesting that Peter Vlandys wants a conference system for NRL to enable a Sydney only conference.

I actually think he is on the right path but will struggle to convince all the NRL clubs its in their interest.

What SS and Hospital cup should try aim to be is the leading Sydney and Brisbane based competitions and own the local tribalism that is lost in a National comp. Running a National club comp is a logistical nightmare , costly and unlikely to engage fans.

Somehow, Rugby needs to find a way to break into League heartland. Maybe invite the Newtown Jets or North Sydney Bears to run a team in SS. Not sure how that would happen, but is the sort of thinking we need to attract wider appeal than just the Eastern and Northern Suburbs .

Somehow, we need a semi professional tier and it needs to build on what exists.

My thoughts are the struggling clubs should relegate to 2nd Grade - similar to what the struggling schools did in GPS.

As for the NRC, I thought it was a great concept that failed to fire. If it were to continue in any form, then make it representative rugby and super condense it, (bit like SOO league) - Not sure how this works, but needs to engage every single Club rugby person. The Epitome of club rugby should be selection in NRC. Crowds and viewership should reflect it.


Post 1, long way to go to pass The Where to for Super Rugby thread. Humble beginnings. Post away

From a Shute Shield perspective it needs to become more inclusive. Forget inviting Newtown or the Bears (Northern Suburbs already exists). Instead alongside maintaining Newcastle look to get Illawarra back in the fold. And look toward the likes of the Macarthur and Liverpool for future district club options. Actually approach both the NSWRU and RA directly about establishing plans for just this. As well as solid plans to bolster and strengthen both Parramatta and Penrith. In order to draw in more appeal beyond the Northern/Eastern suburbs/beaches you need to put into action solid plans in order to build the game into the larger regional centres within reach of Sydney and in the two existing WS districts as well as plans for two new ones in the future.

Something I would very much like to see if we do go down the PR path is a club seeding/support program. This could be done in concert with the clubs to build out the base within each of the their districts. The overall goal should be for each district to have 8-12 full service (U6-1st grade) within them. Look to have the clubs properly reach out and connect with the subbies/junior clubs in their region in order to actually build relationships with them. It may be difficult but try things like getting grade players to help out by helping to run clinics with clubs etc. Little things that form that link. Offer kids free entry to Shute games via this pathway. Get them down to the ground to experience the community side of the event. And look to make it a fun day for them. Achieve this and parents will gladly pay to come and see games.

The only way we'll get a semi-pro game is by these clubs actually acting as the district club and not pretending they are grassroots. There's nothing wrong with being the district club. Especially if you foster the grassroots within. Looking at Stan broadcast of the Easts game and the Randwick game they had 1500-2000 at each game comfortably enough. This needs to essentially double.

As for the NRC. Make it or whatever may replace it as you have suggest. A rep structure. Sydney, Brisbane, ACT, Melbourne and Perth. Would be great for it to essentially follow Super Rugby Au format. But for practical purposes run it as a single round at the end of the season.

 

[Teh Other Dave]

I dunno, the Queensland NRC teams seemed to have better buy-in from the Premier clubs, punters, and players. Feels like the one place that struggled with it was yep, you guessed it, Sydney.

 

[Teh Other Dave]

Also let's get this thread up to 1000 pages. One team, one goal.

 

[Rebel man]

Yeah the NRC is needed. Just because NSW wouldn’t commit it ends up scrapped. The Qld and the ACT had the best NRC programs and look at them now NSW had the worst and this year they went winless

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

From a Shute Shield perspective it needs to become more inclusive. Forget inviting Newtown or the Bears (Northern Suburbs already exists). Instead alongside maintaining Newcastle look to get Illawarra back in the fold. And look toward the likes of the Macarthur and Liverpool for future district club options. Actually approach both the NSWRU and RA directly about establishing plans for just this. As well as solid plans to bolster and strengthen both Parramatta and Penrith. In order to draw in more appeal beyond the Northern/Eastern suburbs/beaches you need to put into action solid plans in order to build the game into the larger regional centres within reach of Sydney and in the two existing WS districts as well as plans for two new ones in the future.

Something I would very much like to see if we do go down the PR path is a club seeding/support program. This could be done in concert with the clubs to build out the base within each of the their districts. The overall goal should be for each district to have 8-12 full service (U6-1st grade) within them. Look to have the clubs properly reach out and connect with the subbies/junior clubs in their region in order to actually build relationships with them. It may be difficult but try things like getting grade players to help out by helping to run clinics with clubs etc. Little things that form that link. Offer kids free entry to Shute games via this pathway. Get them down to the ground to experience the community side of the event. And look to make it a fun day for them. Achieve this and parents will gladly pay to come and see games.

The only way we'll get a semi-pro game is by these clubs actually acting as the district club and not pretending they are grassroots. There's nothing wrong with being the district club. Especially if you foster the grassroots within. Looking at Stan broadcast of the Easts game and the Randwick game they had 1500-2000 at each game comfortably enough. This needs to essentially double.

As for the NRC. Make it or whatever may replace it as you have suggest. A rep structure. Sydney, Brisbane, ACT, Melbourne and Perth. Would be great for it to essentially follow Super Rugby Au format. But for practical purposes run it as a single round at the end of the season.

See this is exactly what I am talking about the Shute needing to become more inclusive. And for the game to actually be engaged and developed in the region. Both Penrith and Parramatta have been struggling. And have done so for a long time now. To the point that apparently RA, NSWRU and the two clubs who obviously hate each other are set for a meeting in a couple of weeks time with the goal of determining a plan forward. Which would be great if it meant expanding the junior base via seeding new clubs. Or developing solid pathways for talent in order to emerge through the district clubs. But no. They main suggestion is a merger. A fucking merger. We need to grow the game not shrink it. Certainly not in the cities west where it gets sweet FA interest or resources from either RA or NSWRU. Here's the article featuring the shithouse idea.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-...erge-in-the-shute-shield-20210430-p57nwl.html


It also mentions that despite selling $20 tickets they struggle to get people out to Bankwest. Because there' no connection to the game. Well, no shit. I've been saying this for a while now. People from the Northern suburbs/beaches don't like crossing the Parramatta river nor do those from the Eastern suburbs and the ANZAC Bridge. So they have to rely heavily on the WS fanbase for those games. Problem is, when you treat a huge swathe of the city like lepers for the most part they tend not to give a shit when you turn up and expect you to fall over yourself just to bask in the tiniest bit of attention (and only when forced from your eastern fortress due to a stadium redevelopment).

If RA and NSWRU are serious. And I mean properly serious. They need to sit down and divide the western region of the city into 4 zones. I've suggested doing this on a city wide scale before but for this instance in terms of need let's start with the west.

Those would be Parramatta, Penrith (that's everything west of the M7 up to Windsor and the Blue Mountains), Liverpool-Bankstown and Macarthur-Wollondilly. Two of them are already established districts while the other two are in growth corridors. With Liverpool having Leppington beginning to come online in terms of development plus several other subsidary developments around that. And of course Badgery's Creek.

And Macarthur-Wollondilly with the Macarthur part expected to grow between 70-100% on top of it's current population with the degree of development in the works over the next 10-15 years. While the Wollondilly being largely connected and close to the Macarthur also expecting to see huge growth (massive new development to put a town with roughly 40k down at Wilton and plans submitted to put up to as many as 20k homes in the Appin area) potentially in the same time frame.

They should determine that within X time period they want to establish 8-12 junior clubs within each region. This would involve seeding new clubs while working to help bolster the few existing clubs in the region. Look to grow these clubs into full service clubs within their local competitions. That feed directly into their districts.

From a Shute perspective. Push for the points cap to be either reinstated or properly policed over this time. With locally developed players given cap exemptions to being essentially free of actually being counted. While players from outside the districts have very high point values attached.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Nrc was great concept I feel but just not well executed and supported in certain quarters (read nswru in particular ). I like the ideas of super rugby b going on from end of season for fringe players plus best club players ie maybe start with only 5 sides (ideally 6 would be better - Fiji maybe added). Benefit is links to existing oz super rugby brands and top up with best club players (to cover loss of players to wallabies squad) and hence support for best club players). I think we learnt recreating new teams too challenging.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

See this is exactly what I am talking about the Shute needing to become more inclusive. And for the game to actually be engaged and developed in the region. Both Penrith and Parramatta have been struggling. And have done so for a long time now. To the point that apparently RA, NSWRU and the two clubs who obviously hate each other are set for a meeting in a couple of weeks time with the goal of determining a plan forward. Which would be great if it meant expanding the junior base via seeding new clubs. Or developing solid pathways for talent in order to emerge through the district clubs. But no. They main suggestion is a merger. A fucking merger. We need to grow the game not shrink it. Certainly not in the cities west where it gets sweet FA interest or resources from either RA or NSWRU. Here's the article featuring the shithouse idea.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-...erge-in-the-shute-shield-20210430-p57nwl.html


It also mentions that despite selling $20 tickets they struggle to get people out to Bankwest. Because there' no connection to the game. Well, no shit. I've been saying this for a while now. People from the Northern suburbs/beaches don't like crossing the Parramatta river nor do those from the Eastern suburbs and the ANZAC Bridge. So they have to rely heavily on the WS fanbase for those games. Problem is, when you treat a huge swathe of the city like lepers for the most part they tend not to give a shit when you turn up and expect you to fall over yourself just to bask in the tiniest bit of attention (and only when forced from your eastern fortress due to a stadium redevelopment).

If RA and NSWRU are serious. And I mean properly serious. They need to sit down and divide the western region of the city into 4 zones. I've suggested doing this on a city wide scale before but for this instance in terms of need let's start with the west.

Those would be Parramatta, Penrith (that's everything west of the M7 up to Windsor and the Blue Mountains), Liverpool-Bankstown and Macarthur-Wollondilly. Two of them are already established districts while the other two are in growth corridors. With Liverpool having Leppington beginning to come online in terms of development plus several other subsidary developments around that. And of course Badgery's Creek.

And Macarthur-Wollondilly with the Macarthur part expected to grow between 70-100% on top of it's current population with the degree of development in the works over the next 10-15 years. While the Wollondilly being largely connected and close to the Macarthur also expecting to see huge growth (massive new development to put a town with roughly 40k down at Wilton and plans submitted to put up to as many as 20k homes in the Appin area) potentially in the same time frame.

They should determine that within X time period they want to establish 8-12 junior clubs within each region. This would involve seeding new clubs while working to help bolster the few existing clubs in the region. Look to grow these clubs into full service clubs within their local competitions. That feed directly into their districts.

From a Shute perspective. Push for the points cap to be either reinstated or properly policed over this time. With locally developed players given cap exemptions to being essentially free of actually being counted. While players from outside the districts have very high point values attached.

Just starting reading your essay -typical frigging nswru approach to avoid them having to do something to grow the game in the west of Sydney or just merge sides and shrink the footprint and then when the merged side struggles without solving root cause of problems just let them fold in a few years. The neglect of western Sydney by nswru and RA is outrageous and makes my blood boil.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Nrc was great concept I feel but just not well executed and supported in certain quarters (read nswru in particular ). I like the ideas of super rugby b going on from end of season for fringe players plus best club players ie maybe start with only 5 sides (ideally 6 would be better - Fiji maybe added). Benefit is links to existing oz super rugby brands and top up with best club players (to cover loss of players to wallabies squad) and hence support for best club players). I think we learnt recreating new teams too challenging.

See I actually think that if we're going to run something like this that it all should be aligned. Super Rugby Au rounds should feature U20s, SuperW, Academy League and Super Rugby Au games on the program. In a perfect world this would extend into a TT component as well.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Just starting reading your essay -typical frigging nswru approach to avoid them having to do something to grow the game in the west of Sydney or just merge sides and shrink the footprint and then when the merged side struggles without solving root cause of problems just let them fold in a few years. The neglect of western Sydney by nswru and RA is outrageous and makes my blood boil.

I've seen throughout my time living in the region. The fact that there are clubs out here is a testament to those who volunteer so much to keep the faintest of pulses that is Rugby in the west going. But the disregard and neglect is hugely frustrating. To the point that if GRR had put a side here I would have had little thought about not dropping the Tahs and backing them. Which shouldn't be something I could do so easily. And that's something that frustrates the crap out of me. The Tahs and NSWRU don't give a crap about the west. So why push RA to block someone who actually wanted to invest in it?

I hope the TT competition is a success. I'm actually on the side of having a two staged competition. But regardless I hope it builds on this year in terms of viewership and crowds to the point where growth is on the books and we get a second team in Sydney. I'd even support it being in the north of the city. Playing out of Brookvale. Why? Because that might actually force the Tahs and NSWRU to shit themselves enough to the point where they start actually looking at the west as not only a source of talent but as a potential fanbase. But even then I doubt it.

 

[dru]

Yeah the NRC is needed. Just because NSW wouldn’t commit it ends up scrapped. The Qld and the ACT had the best NRC programs and look at them now NSW had the worst and this year they went winless

SRU was certainly a dampener on NRC but that doesn't mean they were responsible for scrapping it. In spite their presumptions the SRU is not that powerful. NRC was unable to be supported through the virus and costs were being cut everywhere.

As pro rugby returns, and funding is on the way back, in part anyway, there is an obvious discussion to be had around a competition feeder to the pro clubs. At that point, if we are smart if we are not utterly stupid, we must look to how SRU is engaged. They are the strongest club comp and harbour elements with aspiration. The region they represent provides a huge proportion of our talent.

It makes sense for them to have a strong interest in how this comp is structured. It makes sense for the rugby world to engage with them as we go forward.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

SRU was certainly a dampener on NRC but that doesn't mean they were responsible for scrapping it. In spite their presumptions the SRU is not that powerful. NRC was unable to be supported through the virus and costs were being cut everywhere.

As pro rugby returns, and funding is on the way back, in part anyway, there is an obvious discussion to be had around a competition feeder to the pro clubs. At that point, if we are smart if we are not utterly stupid, we must look to how SRU is engaged. They are the strongest club comp and harbour elements with aspiration. The region they represent provides a huge proportion of our talent.

It makes sense for them to have a strong interest in how this comp is structured. It makes sense for the rugby world to engage with them as we go forward.

If there are clubs with such aspirations then the solution should be fairly clear. RA puts forth a criteria for inclusion into whatever structure it may be. And let the market find it's solution whatever it may be.

 

[Derpus]

Put it in the bin.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Put it in the bin.

Bin what?

 

[Rugbynutter39]

If there are clubs with such aspirations then the solution should be fairly clear. RA puts forth a criteria for inclusion into whatever structure it may be. And let the market find it's solution whatever it may be.

To me we have to heed the lessons of the past and link nrc mark 2 or whatever it is called to existing brands. Hence to me the super rugby b side idea works with idea top club players join to replace those on wallaby duties where they receive nominal base pay like those who played in nrc did. I can’t see clubs directly representing a semi pro feeder side.

 

[dru]

To me we have to heed the lessons of the past and link nrc mark 2 or whatever it is called to existing brands. Hence to me the super rugby b side idea works with idea top club players join to replace those on wallaby duties where they receive nominal base pay like those who played in nrc did. I can’t see clubs directly representing a semi pro feeder side.

What if the Marlins, or Randwick, want to extend their brand into the comp?

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

What if the Marlins, or Randwick, want to extend their brand into the comp?

That's why I'm suggesting RA putting forth a set of criteria for clubs/interested parties to meet in order to gain entry into a new tier. If Manly or Randwick want to extend their brands they can look to meet the criteria and directly bid for entry. If they can't do so then they don't. I mean Ice Hockey has a 8 team national league that plays 28 games a season for god's sake. And that's a niche sport with no real presence in Australia. Surely we could manage something.

 

[KOB1987]

Yes it needs to go semi pro. Using Sydney as an example, you have the top 10 clubs and they have only a first grade, reserve grade and one colts side, and they are aligned with feeder clubs the next level down. Shute Shield is still the prize. No reason why Canberra, Newcastle and Illawarra can’t pitch for a team.

The surplus go to the next tier down and this is where you have 5 grades and 3 colts, this is the highest amateur level and Kentwell Cup is the first grade prize.

You’d do something similar in Queensland, and at the end of the season some sort of Qld v NSW club challenge.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

What if the Marlins, or Randwick, want to extend their brand into the comp?

Not desirable - as you then get clubs miffed and alienated who are not given same opportunity. Stars and Sydney University backing should tell you that. Like I said we need to take heed of past lessons learned.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

That's why I'm suggesting RA putting forth a set of criteria for clubs/interested parties to meet in order to gain entry into a new tier. If Manly or Randwick want to extend their brands they can look to meet the criteria and directly bid for entry. If they can't do so then they don't. I mean Ice Hockey has a 8 team national league that plays 28 games a season for god's sake. And that's a niche sport with no real presence in Australia. Surely we could manage something.

I sway linking semi pro to current super rugby sides. Clearly other option is clubs via national club competition which RA had put forward as other option. I am less convinced this can work but equally I may lack the Vision of others.