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Australian Rugby / RA

Brumby Runner

David Wilson (68)
Thanks for that Slim. Late recognition, but well deserved.

I had thought it might have been recognition for not staying around and embarrassing our beloved coach after being dropped for a couple of nobodies.
 

Brumby Runner

David Wilson (68)
Also, anybody have any news on Hodge's ankle injury? Apparently another training injury; caused him to attend the awards on crutches. But how severe? Syndesmosis? If so, he can probably kiss the EOYT goodbye.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Yeah, BH the players do know something about the game, hey?


I'm surprised as anyone. I don't think anyone here predicted Pocock would win off the back of so few tests. In the end it was comprehensive.

What is most surprising is how few votes Genia polled despite playing a high number of tests and generally rating highly amongst the posters here. He features quite a lot in the 3, 2, 1 votes here.
 

Up the Guts

Steve Williams (59)
I'm surprised as anyone. I don't think anyone here predicted Pocock would win off the back of so few tests. In the end it was comprehensive.

What is most surprising is how few votes Genia polled despite playing a high number of tests and generally rating highly amongst the posters here. He features quite a lot in the 3, 2, 1 votes here.

RE Genia: from my limited experience voting as a player you're usually biased towards actions that saved your team's arse. Last ditch cover tackles or goal line turnovers are usually more memorable than putting a man into space or making a half linebreak that led to a try. It's easier to overlook Genia's work directing the team around than it is when Pocock saves your bacon on your own goal line.

It also helps if you peak when the rest of the team is playing poorly like DHP did this RC.
 

half

Alan Cameron (40)
Just saying I don't have any idea's on this other than something. I think, should be done but don't know what nor how to even start.

A young client came in on Monday, he was a tradie and from his phone he had a complete accounting system in the cloud and his phone was capable of answering all the questions I had..

We got talking about things and he says he and most his age, don't watch TV or read newspaper etc this is reasonably well know.

So many little things he and many his age use and I was bewildered by the array of "snap chat" , "facebook" etc used.

He had a passing interest in rugby due to his Dad had played for Gordon back in the day.

He was far more into E-Sport than more traditional sports.

But here is the kicker, he said at a social media level rugby has little to offer and that puts young people off.

As we discussed forums which he deemed old but still used we discussed this forum, which via his Dad he new of.

He made to me anyway the obvious comparison he said look up 442 which is identical in layout to this forum. Its also well known and has some marketing behind it. But we look at their forum on Australia and found in 24 hours 63 topics discussed. I had to go back to 2 June this year to find 63 topics.

I don't want to compare a commercial site like 442 to this site which is not commercial, that would be extremely unfair and comparing a grape to a water melon. However 63 topics discussed in a single day compared to rugby's forums is information if nothing else.

However the NRL, AFL, FFA, Baskeball & Netball all have social media departments and their support base in general use social media a lot.

Everything I have read or seminar I have been too over the last say 10 years has warned business about falling behind at the social media level.

My very very very basic observation is rugby is behind our competitors in this area and that I think is a major concern going forward.

Personally I have no idea if I am right nor if I am how to fix it, just sharing my thoughts
 

Rebelsfan

Billy Sheehan (19)
^^ agree with those comments - my son is one of those young ones who is into E Sport and so on - he does watch games on tv though, and does attend a game, but only if the crowd is guaranteed to be big - no interest in low crowd games ( like most Super Rugby games are) - that's the young for you eh
 

dru

Tim Horan (67)
No idea on E sport, but there is little doubt that forums are a die-ing media format and that Facebook has a massive generational gap.

I’d love to know what the alternatives are though.
 

zer0

Jim Lenehan (48)
FB is an absolute dumpster fire for any open discussions. The alternative to all subject specific forums is Reddit. Namely the rugby subreddit, in this case. As of earlier this year, 72% of posters were under 30 and 94% under 40. It's not a representative sample of all who pay attention to the subreddit (72K), but I'd wager it's a pretty good sample of people who regularly contribute to it.
 

hoggy

Trevor Allan (34)
This was posted from Brett Papworth, and I thought it good to share

This is a response by Brett Papworth to an article by Geoff Parkes that was published on The Roar website last week.
Subject: Last week's article. Truth the first casualty.....

Hi Geoff,
I read your article early in the week, and I completely understand your point of view. I also completely respect the rights of the rugby community to have a different point of view to mine, and encourage the debate with all my heart.
You make perfectly valid points, as you usually do, so I wanted to engage in a discussion with someone who I think has a reasonable appreciation of the game’s issues. I must confess I don’t read the rugby forums like the Roar, or Green and Gold, etc, apart from a couple of writers who I sense have some sort of intelligent view of things. Certainly don’t read the comments of the anonymous warriors who don’t have the courage to write their name.
Please allow me to put a couple of things in the proper context:

What appeared on the Foxsports site was a very early draft of our collective thoughts. Somehow found its way to a journo, and we shouldn’t be surprised. RUPA jumped on it to distance themselves which was understandable, but we actually have, in writing, the President’s comment. We didn’t use it ultimately, because we don’t want to upset anyone. But don’t confuse RUPA’s public statement with reality, because RUPA are funded by RA, and they can’t be seen to support anything that might have an effect on future funding, or the financial well being of the professional players they represent. It’s politics, not reality.
To try and give you the real context for why we are proposing an Association of Australian Rugby Clubs, let me start by painting the picture of where rugby is; in the view of some very smart and passionate rugby minds:

You mentioned field hockey in your piece. In the view of plenty in rugby, we are teetering already on the brink:
At every level, from schools and juniors upward, our elite players are coming from an increasingly (decreasingly??) smaller pool, which simply means they actually don’t have to be as elite. A player who has to be better than 200 players will be, by definition, a better player than one who has only had to be better than 50.

As the various levels of our game have been devalued, the values and lessons of our game have devalued accordingly. Taking cricket as an example: as the Sheffield Shield and First Grade cricket has become nothing more than a “plaything”, the players who emerge from those pathways are nowhere near as seasoned as those who had to fight to dominate a serious first grade competition. After a while you get players who strut around, highly paid, who have never really had to show anything other than potential. Eventually you get players whose grip on reality is so skewed they think sandpaper on a ball in a test match is ok! Cricket has never spent more money, but I defy you to identify any test quality middle order batsmen on the horizon? And in Cricket’s case they spent, in the last reportable 12 months, $91 Mill on Admin and Operations alone. In essence, cricket is generating serious revenue wherever they can, so they can spend it on themselves!! Rugby unfortunately learns from its sporting brothers and sisters and does the same.

Because of a focus on elite junior identification and development, over more than 15 years, we now play “Collision Rugby”. Why? And How? Well, we essentially pick players now, in every position, based on size. From about 15 years of age, but even younger in some cases, we pick the bigger blokes. What that leads to is players who know nothing other than physically dominating/bullying their opponent. As the little guys (yet to develop) drift away, unwanted, into the arms of the AFL, our big boppers in the elite squads keep running into three defenders because they win 90% of the time doing that! Before long you have a generation of players who know nothing else. When it comes to beating NZ (or for that matter any serious rugby nation), you have to bring much more than that to the table.

And as the player pool shrinks, and with it our elite player numbers, we end up with just a handful of schools playing the game at a high level. We end up with some players at elite rugby schools getting to 18 years of age having almost never lost a game, and therefore rarely having to learn anything. They are selected to play in Australian Schools teams, or U20s, having actually not had to be better than very many others, nor work that hard at being better. We then send them out to learn their lessons against the Chiefs or Crusaders, and they can’t figure out why it doesn’t work!

So what does our governing body do, consistently? More of the same: more money on the top, more irrelevance for those levels that actually matter, and more highly paid staff who focus every day on the funding of their empire, not the participation of kids in our game and the growing of player numbers at junior and school level, which is essential if we ever want to return to the top. The size of the revenue pool means little when the game has no-one playing it, and therefore no-one following it.
So let’s debate that, yes?

No? It is easier to pick on Alan Jones, and confuse his dealings with political issues with his views on rugby matters. It is like me deciding that Raelene is a really bad mother, because I don’t like the way she manages rugby! It isn’t relevant. But it would get a headline, and create “clickbait”!!
You are right when you refer to “us” as pre-dating professional rugby. Yep, we are old, and have had our day (Damn right). It doesn’t necessarily follow that we don’t understand the modern commercial world, and its impact on world rugby. I think you might find that we know a bit about how the game is funded, and how international TV rights work, and also that the funding model is entirely dependent on that “bubble” not bursting, which it is going to do because the broadcasters are currently spending way more than they can afford, globally, and will not keep paying “silly” money for sub-standard content. Not to mention “streaming”, and the rapidly changing way our young people consume sport……

You also mentioned our motives, and ask why we wouldn’t be working with RA more closely? Ahhhh, Geoff!! I/we have been doing this for more than a decade, since I first wrote to John O’Neill in 2006 regarding the path he was taking us down. Five changes of ARU hierarchy later, we are still at it. O’Neill had $57 Mill in the bank in 2004, and spent it (on approx. 200 players, and Head Office). O’Neill took $2.168 Mill personally, as salary, in his final year as CEO in 2012, and left the game virtually insolvent to Bill Pulver. Do you think any rugby journalist ever wrote a word about it? I have been there Geoff, every step of the way, arguing and fighting for those in the game who volunteer their time to make it work. And I’m still here, and I have no idea why I bother…..

I have been “inside the tent” since about ‘01, as Director and President at Eastwood, and currently VP of the Sydney Rugby Union (who have a seat at the NSWRU Board table). I have seen from the inside how the mug volunteers are treated. We are not paid to know anything, and our motives do not align with those who “take” from the rugby trough. I fight those battles every single day, from as far inside as I can get.
You wrote the following:

“That’s not a criticism of anyone, just a reflection of the relative size of the ‘rugby market’, the sports broadcasting environment, and the extent of domestic competition from other successful sports.”
“Why is this important? Because in a global, professional sport, this is what determines Australia’s ability to generate sponsorship, broadcast rights revenue and to contract leading players – and from there, win World Cups and fund its domestic amateur/community game.

“Any strategy that turns its back on the rugby world in favour of warm and fuzzy dreams of returning to the glory days of Coogee Oval ignores reality and is doomed to destroy Australia’s competitiveness at the elite level”.
This is where we fundamentally disagree:
Our administrators have had exactly the mindset you describe: Global, TV Revenue, Sponsorship, focus on the top!! And it has lead our game to here: Uncompetitive at elite level, declining crowds, declining interest, declining sponsorship, declining participant numbers.

I don’t need to remind you that we actually won world cups on the back of the structures left by the amateurs. The winners of the world cup in ’99 were essentially a group of players who had come through an amateur system of development. When the modern administrator (Arbib report) changed our constitution and recommended “independence and diversity”, we have conveniently forgotten what it was that made us strong. It is now about money and political correctness, not the game.
And how is that going????

Are you saying that we should continue down this path? We disagree, strongly. The success of the AFL and NRL would suggest that a domestic focus works just fine!! Why, because tribal, meaningful and accessible footy gets our juices flowing, not Global, meaningless matches against people we don’t know about or care about.
Just because we are seen as old, doesn’t mean we are not progressive. There is not an ulterior motive between any of us, and whilst we understand we will be accused of all sorts of things, we have nothing but the best long term interests of the game at the forefront of our thinking. None of us earn one cent from our game, so come at this from a fairly unique perspective don’t you think? We know we are not going back to the “warm and fuzzy” days at Coogee Oval, but there does need to be a focus on kids playing the game, and investment in the future player pool. It is our view that this “investment need” trumps the needs of the professional players and the administrators who like spending money on themselves. 145 staff at last count, and annual spend of $130+ Mill.

Yet, there is currently Zero investment on the player pool that will enable us to pick a team for the 2039 World Cup. That is our motive, and we are happy to debate it. I can guarantee that our governing bodies don’t give it a thought, because they are completely consumed by paying yesterday’s bills, which they are struggling to do!
We believe that the 99% of the game that does the grunt work deserve a voice. As for it being a Sydney or “east coast” thing? It will be a national body, representing the game in every corner, even Victoria!! It won’t be we old crusty blokes running it, it will be those decided upon by the clubs.

I understand that not everyone will like us, or agree with us. If we worried about the mud-slinging we wouldn’t get out of bed. But we are in a position to give the clubs a voice, where they may not be able to have one. It will be up to them. And it may be our last throw of the dice.

Truth is absolutely the first casualty. You had that 100% correct, but not why you think.
Sorry for going on a bit! I am a bit prone to doing that! Always happy to discuss or answer any questions.

Kind regards,
Brett Papworth
 

Aurelius

Ted Thorn (20)
Well, Papworth's certainly right about the cricket. Neglect the Sheffield Shield because there isn't enough money for it, watch batsmens' techniques deteriorate to the point where they can't post a competitive total outside Australian conditions, but puff the team up enough that the most senior players feel entitled to cheat and then vote themselves back into office before anyone has the chance to challenge their running of the game.

I don't know if anyone here watches the show The Blacklist, but there's a character on it named Agent Ressler. Ressler is basically this alpha-male type - arrogant and cocksure, loves strutting around barking orders, but generally out of his depth and doesn't know what he doesn't know. Well, in one of the earliest episodes his team is tracking down this sexy Russian femme-fatale spy/assassin type and they trace her down to this hotel. There's an awkward moment where Ressler and the femme-fatale find themselves on the elevator together, and then he recognises her, and she recognises him ...

Anyway, long story short, she kicks his ass. It's pretty satisfying to watch, but while it should have come as a lesson in humility to Ressler, it just didn't. He was up and about in the very next scene, still strutting around barking orders while everyone else tries to ignore the fact that half his face is covered in bruises.

Why do I bring this up? Because in recent days I've come to think of that scene as a pretty good metaphor for sports administration in this country. Whether you're talking about rugby, cricket, the AOC ... they all seem to be run by these big-headed clowns who are out of their depth, take figurative blows to the face every single day, yet are apparently convinced they're all doing great jobs, don't need to learn any lessons or take any responsibility, insist to the outside world that they're doing great jobs, and keep appoint themselves back into office. In other words, our major sports are run by a bunch of Resslers. That's not encouraging for the future of Australian sport.
 

WorkingClassRugger

David Codey (61)
My biggest issue with the likes of Papworth and Co. is that when they talk about supporting the grassroots they are conveniently understating that in their opinion the grassroots begins and ends with their elite little groupings. Nothing they have ever said makes me think that given greater levels of investment that they'll pass it down to the junior and subbies/country clubs where the majority of the Rugby playing and supporting community reside.

He mentions that this organisation will represent all the clubs. Does he actually mean every single club regardless of whether they have premier status or just those that fit within his traditional very narrow definition. I suspect it's more of the latter.

In past discussions I supported the idea of providing additional resources to the districts clubs to engage their own Development Officers/Managers with the express purpose of using those resources to help grow the game at the level below that of the districts in an open and transparent manner. But a no strings attached arrangement should be out of the question.

I find his continued delusion of exactly how popular the Shute Shield actually is worrisome. This seasons ratings were posted on this forum during the back end of the SS season and they were far from going gangbusters. And in all honesty outside of the Battle of the Beaches and the GF SS crowds aren't setting anyone world alight. We talk about our game's admin being out of touch. Well, unfortunately it's not much better at the premier club level.

As above, we need more kids and social level players involved in the game. Particularly kids. And I'm happy for the premier clubs to be part of that. But just a part. An important one but still. That's the new reality. They need to be the first step into testing the new against the old. The platform for the late bloomer to push forward but gone are the days when they were the be all and end all.

Yes, the majority of the '99 RWC winning team were from the amateur structures. But the game has moved on and continues to do so. FAST.

Let the clubs form their group. Maybe they'll be able to leverage all those supposed connections to seeing some level of increased funding (I seriously doubt it. I suspect we'll just hear more gripping and calls for handouts just louder) but we need to make it very clear where the game is and needs to go and back to the future is not it.
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
That's probably the best piece of writing I've seen from Papworth.

Though the thing he still lacks is tangible policies. It's still just 'too much cash spent on the top level - give it to the people' type stuff, but I don't really understand what the 'grassroots' would do if they suddenly had a $10m injection.

He rails against head office staff, but in fact if you DID have $10m to spend on grassroots, surely most of that would go to hiring more staff? Development officers, coaching development people, marketing etc.

Otherwise the money goes into capital (none of which the clubs really own) or into the pockets of club players/coaches/admins.
.
 

kiap

Steve Williams (59)
What is E sport?

vidya gaems


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https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-28/the-esports-phenomenon-moves-into-australia/9357496
 
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