Rugbynutter39
Michael Lynagh (62)
I think you are right about oz woman and lack of big bopper power players as oz coach made mention of that challenge given lot of oz players come from touch rugby which are the smaller size nippy players.
Sydney 7's 2020
- Thread starter waiopehu oldboy
- Start date
S
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Guest
They need to go poach one or two of the NRLW forwards
7s highlight basic skills catch pass and tackle unlike 15s no where to hide. Not a poor version just lack of vision by some
waiopehu oldboy
Stirling Mortlock (74)
Standings after Sydney:
Men
1. NZ 76
2. SA 67
3. France 56
4. England 54
5. Fiji 53
6= USA 47
6= Australia 47
8. Argentina 45
https://www.world.rugby/sevens-series/standings/mens
Women
1. NZ 96
2= Australia 80
2= Canada 80
4. France 70
5. USA 66
6. Russia 40
https://www.world.rugby/sevens-series/standings/womens/
Men
1. NZ 76
2. SA 67
3. France 56
4. England 54
5. Fiji 53
6= USA 47
6= Australia 47
8. Argentina 45
https://www.world.rugby/sevens-series/standings/mens
Women
1. NZ 96
2= Australia 80
2= Canada 80
4. France 70
5. USA 66
6. Russia 40
https://www.world.rugby/sevens-series/standings/womens/
The men are much of muchness. Can't see much improvement there. Perhaps Pama Fou should be more of a focus than Luke Morahan given his excellence previously and his work at the restart (which was horrendous).
Our work at the breakdown lets us down, for both teams, as we are basically dominated by most main teams we play. Sharni Williams is the best we have across both squads. SHe was exceptional this weekend.
The women are a real worry. Not sure where the improvement comes from, with only Vani Pelite to come back. I thought Shannon Parry was fairly anonymous and Ellia Green had, I thought, her poorest tournament for a long time. We also seem to be using Tonegato differently, and shes doing a hell of a lot of heavy work. I really like the young ones coming through like Ashby and Paki, but that band of youngies who have been around a few years now (Du Toit and Hayes etc) really need to step up. They are not having the impact they need.
Emma Sykes is one I want more of too. She is super talented and showed those glimpses last week. But she also looked a little loose at times. If she can be sorted out by the coaching team, shes above Ashby in the pecking order for mine.
And hopefully Chloe Dalton is good to go immediately because by Christ we need her kicking. Our restarts are terrible.
Our work at the breakdown lets us down, for both teams, as we are basically dominated by most main teams we play. Sharni Williams is the best we have across both squads. SHe was exceptional this weekend.
The women are a real worry. Not sure where the improvement comes from, with only Vani Pelite to come back. I thought Shannon Parry was fairly anonymous and Ellia Green had, I thought, her poorest tournament for a long time. We also seem to be using Tonegato differently, and shes doing a hell of a lot of heavy work. I really like the young ones coming through like Ashby and Paki, but that band of youngies who have been around a few years now (Du Toit and Hayes etc) really need to step up. They are not having the impact they need.
Emma Sykes is one I want more of too. She is super talented and showed those glimpses last week. But she also looked a little loose at times. If she can be sorted out by the coaching team, shes above Ashby in the pecking order for mine.
And hopefully Chloe Dalton is good to go immediately because by Christ we need her kicking. Our restarts are terrible.
S
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Guest
the new crop of girls coming through are even smaller than the older ones in the squad, they need some size
kiap
Steve Williams (59)
Green was woeful in Hamilton, Reg. Thought she at least tried to attack more this time and showed some ticker playing on after spilling blood from a cut to the head in the last game.
pissedoffihavetoregister
Bill Watson (15)
We need Chloe Dalton, some afl style catches could help our restarts.
You are right tho, when we play well against the smaller teams and get mugged against the nz/canada.
Some of those players are getting long in the tooth - parry.
You are right tho, when we play well against the smaller teams and get mugged against the nz/canada.
Some of those players are getting long in the tooth - parry.
RedsHappy
Tony Shaw (54)
I remember so well RR when you were one of the first here to justifiably back in, what, 2014, highlight how brilliantly the Aust 7s women's team was playing and the dazzlingly skilful style of 7s rugby there were then producing. And you were totally correct; your comments presaged the Olympic win in 2016.
There can be little doubt that Walsh and that team peaked in 2016 and attained a level of competitive excellence now long dissipated and, sadly, nearly forgotten.
What went wrong?
IMO, three things:
One, typically Aust back-slapping hubris when we win big via our national teams. We so often start to consider we have invented the hold grail of some comp or another and we swap a hidden and implicit complacency for immediate humility, self-analysis and hard-bitten renewal of game styles, players and skills.
Two, Walsh was fantastic in his pre-2016 player selections, training and player development methods. His period to 2016 was a superb example of sustained rugby coaching competence and leadership across all the essential spans of what needed to be built.
But his big, big longer-term mistake with far-reaching consequences was (a) not fully grasping the next major evolution in 7s women's rugby shifting inexorably toward a greater balance between raw physical prowess in defence and ruck work and speed and agility, and (b) consequently in late 2016 and into 2017 not recruiting a 'bigger, tougher, stronger, more hardened' type of new recruit into his 7s stable.
Instead he choose to promote young women in the past moulds of light running backs vs the newly required 7s conquistadors - that are really forward-backs hybrids in physical skills terms - and now found in far greater quantity in NZ, Canada, France and well emerging in USA and, slowly but surely, Fiji. Worse still of these newly chosen light running backs none if any have truly blazing speed a la Green and that is why the team is increasingly over-reliant on Green and we lack a balanced wing structure unlike eg NZ's which is in itself proving costly vs the better teams.
Three, by any observable and objective standards of coaching calibre at work, Menenti has been an absolute disaster as this team's HC for the last two years. The womens' individual skills have clearly and quite seriously degraded since early 2018, the game plans are increasingly hard to discern if any really exist ('just get it wide' seems to the sole team MO when against good competition), team cohesion as soon as real pressure arrives falls apart, our restarts are often laughable and inexcusably poor for pro players, and our defence is regularly early-QC (Quade Cooper)-like-awful with lots of failed light, high jersey tugs and poor overall tackle execution more typical than not.
When a coach starts to make hapless statements like 'we're so much better at training than we're showing on the field' you know that bad will only become worse and the HC has lost his ability to properly grow and lead a team.
Add 1, 2, and 3 up = incremental and assured decline into weakened competitiveness and ever more 'disappointing' outcomes. Until and unless 2 and 3 change fundamentally, our women's team is headed for, at best, sustained mediocrity whilst other teams with better player selection and coaching move the whole game forward and watch delighted as the Aussie women fade in the rear view mirror.
I like to watch
David Codey (61)
I think we had an advantage over most sides prior to our Olympics win,as most countries were starting from scratch.
we had several touch players,and could play with much more width.
since then,the others have caught up in that regard, and are superior in contact.
that's my issue with past and present coaches.
none have acknowledged we are deficient in this area.
more fight club, less ball skills at training!
we had several touch players,and could play with much more width.
since then,the others have caught up in that regard, and are superior in contact.
that's my issue with past and present coaches.
none have acknowledged we are deficient in this area.
more fight club, less ball skills at training!
Strewthcobber
Mark Ella (57)
It's the same old story for Aus rugby. Get a jump on the rest because we get a head start with professionalism, then when the rest of the world gets their act together we lose out because too many of our best potential athletes play other sports
RedsHappy
Tony Shaw (54)
Like your work S'cobber but NZ and Canada certainly had matured and fully staffed women's 7s programs by 2016 and these were the teams that prior to the last Olympics generally gave our team the most competition for 7s tournament victories (and still do today btw). (Side note: it was interesting that immediately post NZ losing to Aust for the gold then, they replaced the women's 7s HC and the new HC has totally rebuilt NZ's player base, skills, toughness, game plans and so on, to much success - HC coaching matters!).
To your second point I'm not aware that the Aust women's pro 7s system has had real problems, esp since the Rio gold, recruiting say from WRL or WRU or WAFL in that they could not, despite attempts, recruit excellent women players from these types of sources.
IMO the issue is that in fact the RA women's 7s talent scouts had too little motivation to recruit from these sources for a 'harder, bigger, tougher' type of female 7s player. Instead they generally IIRC kept on recruiting extensively out of the AON 7s Comp and such like where (as others here have said) many of the players originate from Touch, athletics and so on.
I think where we have lost a fair amount of our competitive advantage is through other sports increasing their professionalism and opportunities for women in recent years. In 2016 and before, our women's 7s team was just about the best professional team sport opportunity for women in Australia.
The other sports have started catching up (and cricket has gone way past) which I think hinders rugby's access to our best female athletes.
I also think the standard of women's 7s has increased dramatically in the last few years too. We need to be better than we were in 2016 (and I think we've probably regressed slightly) whereas all our close competition have improved substantially. It's hard to point to many of our players who you could say are better now than they were then yet the core of our team is still the same and largely, the newer players that have joined the squad are worse than that core from 2016.
RedsHappy
Tony Shaw (54)
It's a glorious day when you and I agree on a rugby matter BH
. But your first 2 paras are very good points, and inevitably given them, it's the women's rugby 7s program/RA's job to at least keep up or go one better than other women's competitive codes, there is no other way to sustain success in the medium term and beyond.You may have have seen in my post #70 above I agree re our women's 7s top team's real regression (both relative to competition, and, too, absolutely) since 2016. There can be no doubt some of that must be down to Walsh's successor who's had 2 years now with the team post-Walsh. Certainly NZ, Canada, France, USA (mostly) look much better coached and their players' skills better developed than the 2020 version of our women's 7s team.
I'm not entirely sure here as I feel like the men's team has regressed with Walsh as well.
I like to watch
David Codey (61)
The women’s squad have been in decline ever since they won gold.
im not sure who should bear the brunt of the blame.
However, it would appear the solution to our 7s coaching woes will not be an Australian.
Neither of the incumbents appear to understand the failings of their squad, and Friend was totally ineffective.
interestingly the kiwi girl’s coach has a funny kiwi accent...........
im not sure who should bear the brunt of the blame.
However, it would appear the solution to our 7s coaching woes will not be an Australian.
Neither of the incumbents appear to understand the failings of their squad, and Friend was totally ineffective.
interestingly the kiwi girl’s coach has a funny kiwi accent...........
Jimmy_Crouch
Ken Catchpole (46)
RedsHappy
Tony Shaw (54)
We have been poor/mediocre in men's 7s for years and of course that pre-dates Walsh.
But you're entirely right, Walsh with the men's 7s has been a massive disappointment relative to (seemingly rational at the time) expectations when he started 2 years ago. They are today a roller coaster mess of a team and we are desperately trying to lift the shaky and stumbling machine with the likes of Davies and Morahan and it won't shift or save the fundamentals.
Points to the probability that Walsh was a 'special time, special place' oncer-type of HC success story and when that time and that place really shifted into a new condition state, he was unfortunately thus lost and relapsed to the more or less ordinary.
Adam84
Nick Farr-Jones (63)
I think thats the wrong choice of words ILTW.
I don't think the Women's have been in decline, I think as squad they are certainly stronger then they were at the Olympics, and I also think during the 2016 Rio Olympics they set the benchmark of professionalism for Women's 7s. However since then that gap that used to exist between them and the rest of the world has closed, and in a few cases the other teams have surpassed them.
It needs to be remembered that prior to the Rio Olympics the New Zealand women's team didn't even live in the same city, they only came together for camps, as opposed to the Aussie Women's team who had been training out of Narabeen full-time together for a couple years. None of the other teams in the world had full-time squads like Australia did at that point, now most of the major competitors do.
Similar to the Wallabies in 1995, the Aussie Women's 7s team embraced professionalism at a much faster rate then the competitors, and I think this more then compensated for the differences in natural ability that other teams like New Zealand held over them.