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COVID-19 Stuff Here

Dismal Pillock

David Codey (61)

Aurelius

Ted Thorn (20)
I found thos article on the economic impact of the shutdown interesting.

https://theconversation.com/the-cos...e-outweighed-by-its-1-trillion-benefit-138303

Thanks for posting. There are a couple of questions/comments I have about the piece:

First -

The sceptics arguing for more rapid relaxation of containment measures point to the economic costs of lockdowns and appeal to the cold calculus of cost-benefit analysis to conclude that the lives saved by lockdowns don’t justify the economic costs incurred to do so.

I don't think that's strictly what people have been saying. I've heard plenty of people commenting that the human costs - unemployment, mental health, other health consequences etc - of the shutdown should be taken into account.

In short, the authors are attacking a strawman.

However, granting the premise of the article, they come up with the economic value of a human life in Australia as being $1.1 trillion based on the following -

Converting those fatalities to dollars using the Australian value of a statistical life of A$4.9 million per life yields a cost of A$1.1 trillion.
In rough terms, that’s the amount we have gained by shutting down the economy, provided deaths do not skyrocket when lockdown measures are relaxed and borders re-open.


Now, if you're going to apply the statistical value of a life model, that strikes me as being deeply flawed. The coronavirus all over the world has overwhelmingly claimed the lives of the elderly and those with significant co-morbidities. If you're going to run this as a dollars-and-cents exercise, it's hard to justify that every life has an equal economic value, and that those killed by coronavirus have the same economic value as those that are more likely to survive it. It sounds harsh, but strictly as a matter of economic logic that doesn't make a great deal of sense to me.

Third -

It is also important to note that the government’s spending of A$214 billion to support the economy during the shutdown is a transfer of resources from one part of society to another rather than a cost.
It creates neither direct costs nor benefits for society as a whole, other than the economic distortions coming from raising the revenue to service the spending.
With long-term government bond rates near 1% (less than inflation), the total cost of distortions is likely to be tiny.

Now, this is just nonsense. The money we're spending on dealing with this isn't being transferred from one part of society to another. It's being raised through debt. Even with bond rates as low as they are, $214 billion borrowed is $214 billion that has to be repaid - and even if you're not worried about that, it's an undeniable fact that those borrowings represent money that could be spent elsewhere. This is a concept known as "opportunity cost" and I learned about it in high school economics.

Some of the authors' points are perfectly valid, but on the whole they've applied a very shallow methodology to some heroic assumptions and excluded all sorts of variables to arrive to what's clearly a predetermined conclusion. Frankly, I'd expect a lot more from a pair of economics professors.
 

tragic

John Solomon (38)
Now, if you're going to apply the statistical value of a life model, that strikes me as being deeply flawed. The coronavirus all over the world has overwhelmingly claimed the lives of the elderly and those with significant co-morbidities. If you're going to run this as a dollars-and-cents exercise, it's hard to justify that every life has an equal economic value, and that those killed by coronavirus have the same economic value as those that are more likely to survive it. It sounds harsh, but strictly as a matter of economic logic that doesn't make a great deal of sense to me.

It’s worth noting that 24% of deaths in countries that have been overwhelmed are aged <64. Whilst the mortality is certainly higher in older individuals it is by no means an old persons disease. And hypertension was classified as a “significant comorbidity”
Do you really believe that a 50yo with high blood pressure should have a discounted economic value?
 

Aurelius

Ted Thorn (20)
It’s worth noting that 24% of deaths in countries that have been overwhelmed are aged <64. Whilst the mortality is certainly higher in older individuals it is by no means an old persons disease. And hypertension was classified as a “significant comorbidity”
Do you really believe that a 50yo with high blood pressure should have a discounted economic value?


Compared to who? A perfectly healthy 24-year-old engineering graduate?

I really don't know how you can accurately assign an economic value to someone's life. The "economic value" probably shouldn't be included in these types of analysis for that reason. But one thing I do know is that just saying that every life, regardless of age, health and economic circumstance, is worth exactly $4.9 million as the basis for calculating the economic value of a shutdown doesn't make any sense.

If you are going to go down that road, you're probably better off using actuarial charts and applying them against the lives lost in similar countries to Australia if you want to put a dollar figure on the benefits of these policies.
 

Up the Guts

Steve Williams (59)
It’s worth noting that 24% of deaths in countries that have been overwhelmed are aged <64. Whilst the mortality is certainly higher in older individuals it is by no means an old persons disease. And hypertension was classified as a “significant comorbidity”
Do you really believe that a 50yo with high blood pressure should have a discounted economic value?
Well, I know in Britain 84% of deaths are 65+ (68% 75+). I'm not sure how much higher that % would need to be so that it is classified as an old person's disease.

I don't think the 50yo with high blood pressure is necessarily high risk, from what I've read they've found no evidence thus far that there is a link between hypertension and susceptibility to COVID-19. Rather the overrepresentation of hypertension as a comorbidity is because it is more prevalent in older populations and they have largely been the ones dying (because of weaker immune systems, higher prevalence of other more dangerous risk factors like cancer etc.).
 

tragic

John Solomon (38)
Hypertension was the fourth highest predictor of death - higher than cancer (which was 5th).
Probably because the virus enters cells via the ACE2 receptor which is upregulated in patients with high blood pressure.
Only chronic respiratory disease (eg asthma), diabetes and cardiovascular disease were higher.

Edit: whether the link is causal or not can be debated but it is still being counted in the stats as a death with significant comorbidity
 

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Up the Guts

Steve Williams (59)
Hypertension was the fourth highest predictor of death - higher than cancer (which was 5th).
Probably because the virus enters cells via the ACE2 receptor which is upregulated in patients with high blood pressure.
Only chronic respiratory disease (eg asthma), diabetes and cardiovascular disease were higher.

Edit: whether the link is causal or not can be debated but it is still being counted in the stats as a death with significant comorbidity
Yep, not disputing that it is being counted as a comorbidity. I’m just saying that the high prevalence of hypertension amongst the most affected demographic may give the appearance of causality when it may not actually be the case (although, I’m sure what you say about the virus entering the cells is a valid hypothesis). Obviously, if we had stats showing that the most common comorbidity under 65 was hypertension we would probably be able to infer some causality.
 

boyo

Mark Ella (57)
This thing is an non political issue, every real country f*cked this up, we let a cruise ship get through, the New York Mayor sent infected back the nursing homes etc etc they are all making it up as they go along

Are you being an apologist for f*ckups?

Interesting.
 

boyo

Mark Ella (57)
FP, you may want to make it a non political issue, buy Boyo is determined to make it one, so just let him be. You can't have an argument with a closed mind.

Orwellian.

Showing concern for human life is not evidence of a closed mind.
In fact, being concerned for many other things before human lives is evidence of a closed mind. Society should not be a Big Brother world (The 1984 type, not the reality-TV type).
 

boyo

Mark Ella (57)
However, granting the premise of the article, they come up with the economic value of a human life in Australia as being $1.1 trillion



Now, this is just nonsense. The money we're spending on dealing with this isn't being transferred from one part of society to another. It's being raised through debt. Even with bond rates as low as they are, $214 billion borrowed is $214 billion that has to be repaid - and even if you're not worried about that, it's an undeniable fact that those borrowings represent money that could be spent elsewhere. This is a concept known as "opportunity cost" and I learned about it in high school economics.
1. The article did not say that. Stop making things up.

2. A government (which is a currency-issuer) can afford to buy whatever is for sale in its own currency.

A sovereign government that issues its own currency cannot run out of that currency. It can buy whatever it wants within the productive capacity of an entire economy. We are nowhere near that productive capacity because so many are underpaid/underemployed.
Before you say it, that is not inflationary per se; it would be inflationary if the money was used for day to day expenditure, or if it was used to exceed the productive capacity of the economy.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
Are you being an apologist for f*ckups?

Interesting.


A realist, I don't live in a world where anyone has any idea what should be done about this.

They are all making it up as they go along

Governments f*ck up, which political party in charge is irrelevant.

My preference is that we limit their power so their f*ck ups are just less important

My preference is to trust the populations to do the right thing most of the time by providing them with the information they need to make good personal decisions, not jack booted thugs enforcing arbitrary rules that make no sense.

We already now know that people were already social distancing before the governments locked shit down

Not a society with the elites are deciding that staying locked up suits them as they are getting paid whilst the less well off go without, as the elites arbitrarily decide who is important and what businesses are important

EYEjURMXsAEKr9j
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
Orwellian.

Showing concern for human life is not evidence of a closed mind.
In fact, being concerned for many other things before human lives is evidence of a closed mind. Society should not be a Big Brother world (The 1984 type, not the reality-TV type).


Governments make these decisions every day, we just don't like to think about it.

Every government budget means at the edge people will die, one of the few things Bob Carr ever said that i could agree with was that he could have spent the whole NSW budget on health and their still would have been complaints with people dying because of the lack of resources

All the options are terrible and certainly have unavoidable bad consequences. In that situation, it seems better to let individuals and families make their own decisions, as they have the most interest in keeping their loved ones happy and healthy, and, with good information, best placed to do what is necessary to achieve that.
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
In that situation, it seems better to let individuals and families make their own decisions, as they have the most interest in keeping their loved ones happy and healthy, and, with good information, best placed to do what is necessary to achieve that.


IMHO you're overestimating the intelligence - and patience - of individuals.

I was going to head off on a tangent about comparison to drink driving laws, but I think we did that already.
 

Ignoto

Greg Davis (50)
In that situation, it seems better to let individuals and families make their own decisions, as they have the most interest in keeping their loved ones happy and healthy, and, with good information, best placed to do what is necessary to achieve that.

I dunno FP, the 'protestors' and idiots I see on social media linking 5G and COVID makes me think letting these people make decisions that impact the rest of us as a high risk, low reward one.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
I dunno FP, the 'protestors' and idiots I see on social media linking 5G and COVID makes me think letting these people make decisions that impact the rest of us as a high risk, low reward one.


Your first mistake is thinking social media is the real world, but the other option is what? not letting individuals make decisions over their lives?

It is always worth considering that the worst arsehole you could think off might be making those decisions about you
 
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