Springboks v Wallabies, Loftus Versfeld, Sun 9th Jul 1.05am AEST

[Digestif Palu]

I don't know, I found the T Hooper selection quite baffling and nothing he did in the limited time he was on the field changed that opinion.

Sure he is a big guy, but didn't do anything else today that really stood out as being at test level.

Agree, he didn't stand out but he had 30 mins and literally no one in our pack stood out as test level. Aside from maybe the line out in which he was fine in. Which should reflect much more poorly on the experienced players. Slipper, AAA and M Hooper in particular are much bigger concerns, especially considering 2 are captains.

Edit: He hasn't had enough time but he really did front up against the Hurricanes in particular this and last year. He carries hard and tackles hard. Obviously didn't see that this game and in hindsight Holloway would have been a more level headed selection but just seems weird to throw a guy in the deep end and then attack him when he is part of a well beaten pack.

 

[TSR]

From what I’ve seen of him at the Brumbies I think he’s looked good.

Very tough game to debut in though.

 

[dru]

I see some different thoughts on Tom to my positive vibes. While I was satisfied, focussed mostly on the Line out I guess, he did get 30 min. And that is definitely enough to have made a claim. Or not. EJ (Eddie Jones) has what he needs to make this call.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Quade will get another chance but maybe Father Time has finally caught the bloke. When you reach 30+ and coming back from major injury, things can just drop off a cliff.

For as comfortable as I thought Gordon looked, this Wallabies pack isn’t great. Throwing Gordon into the deep end and starting him behind this pack could be career suicide.

Overall just shows this team wasn’t going to be a miracle turnaround. Prior to Eddie arriving i don’t think many of us thought 2023 would be overly successful for the Wobs. And this kinda confirm it.

I'm one of those (the many I think) who thought there were decent signs of improvement in the Wallabies under Rennie last year. I would like to hold off on judgement of Eddie but he has put me some way offside already with his openly no ball in hand game plan and with his clear errors in selecting and taking on tour players not yet fit to play and failing to have adequate coverage of the front row in his squad. I am fearful that he hasn't learnt anything about the importance of the scrum, and particularly of the front row, from his earlier stint as national coach.

 

[eastman]

T Hooper was good in the lineout, had a couple of carries and hit a few rucks. As my mate Digestif said above he made a few poor reads where he wasn’t aided by teammates but generally I though a decent debut.

We played better with him on the field than off it.

 

[Eyes and Ears]

I was under the impression you could deliberately knock the ball down if you knocked it backwards?

Yes you can. Line out jumpers do it all the time.

 

[eastman]

When fans say, that Hodge has to go, let's not forget that he allowed both Kerevi and Carter on the bench. .

Kerevi shouldn’t be a bench player- he either starts or shouldn’t be in the 22; he’s a fantastic crash baller who looks better in structured football than when it gets loose.

I hate to flog a dead horse but let’s stop with the bullshit about Hodge and utility. He offers very little upside and I can comfortably say that Carter Gordon would already be better than him at 15, and potentially even 12.

 

[molman]

Our scrum was under pressure all game.

Yes, I think I was wrong to say the scrum was ok (TBF I really am rather tired). I guess the difference was the impact of the scrums in the first half was a lot less. A lot less scrums and resulting penalties.

Kitshoff wasn’t doing anything you don’t expect at test level.

True. Though I think it was telling that the scrum held up when BOK shifted to Kitshoff's side. Not that the Wallabies weren't under a load of pressure and AAA looked to be setting rather extended. SA definitely had the pack weight and they have the class in that pack.

Anyway, not sure I missed any but these were the scrums;

10min - Collapse/backpeddling. SA told to play.
19min - Early bind SA (Kitshoff hinging/pulling that down to my eye), Wallabies win reset
27mins - AAA pancake x2 - SA penalty.
40mins - AAA pancake. Wallabies back peddling on reset, but clear ball.
42min - Parity, if a little unstable. Wallabies clear.
45mins - Pressure on, SA walking around/wheeling. AUS short arm penalty.
55mins - (Uelese on) - Scrum folds up, SA look to stand up first. Ball out, play on.
58min - Wallabies scrum under pressure. Uelese standing. SA penalty.
61mins - Wallabies scrum under pressure. Quick clear from McDermott
64mins - (New front row for AUS) Wallabies walk scrum around. SA penalty.
67mins - Wallabies under pressure, back peddling, SA clear.
70mins - Wallabies collapse/pancake, SA told to play ball at back
72mins - Wallabies fold/collapse, TH. SA penalty.
77mins - Wallabies under pressure/back peddling. SA penalty.
79mins - Wallabies under pressure, scrum shuffling sideways. Ball out.

Our lineout got worse as the game progressed, particularly in defence. Our kicking didn’t produce any meaningful positive result for the whole game that I can remember. I agree the kick chase shares blame for that, but there were plenty of dud kicks.

Don't disagree that the lineout wasn't as good as the game progressed, but I still don't feel that it was particularly poor overall. Ueleses' poor throws aside.

 

[liquor box]

Is Pete Samu playing on the wing part of Eddie's game plan?

Utility player?

 

[dru]

Kerevi shouldn’t be a bench player- he either starts or shouldn’t be in the 22; he’s a fantastic crash baller who looks better in structured football than when it gets loose.

I hate to flog a dead horse but let’s stop with the bullshit about Hodge and utility. He offers very little upside and I can comfortably say that Carter Gordon would already be better than him at 15, and potentially even 12.

it isn't BS east, might have different thoughts but that isn't unusual is it? I'm not going to justify EJ (Eddie Jones) selections at 22 and 23, but they couldn't happen without some cover on the field. Hodge would also have gotten the nod with his boot. Which didn't work for us at all.

As it turns out, I think you might be right about Carter giving better coverage in the role - In HINDSIGHT. We had one Hail Mary in the XV (Tom), it would have been silly to start Carter out of position.

 

[Dismal Pillock]

Aus backs looked good early on the hawd fawst track but a few dinky kicks later and from there their forwards got overwhelmed

Quade did not help. Some really shitty kicks and bugger all control. Carter Gordon time.

The Aussie DRONGO that took the uneducated flyhack at the loose ball under his own posts only to completely miss and usher in the first bokke stroll-in for 5 did not help either.

Skelton did a job at the maul but ffs he's 3 metres tall and 300 kg, you'd expect him to. He's too heavy to lift in the lineout. On attack he was fahhhhking hopeless. Completely ineffective plodder. Which is bizarre when you consider his goddamn SIZE.

Libbok's passing, off either hand, was sumptuous.

 

[molman]

Not sure which was poorer. The Wallabies or some of the takes on this thread.

Do you have a take Reg? What's your thoughts on the game and where to from here?

I do agree there is a lot of gloom here.

Do we have the players, class and experience? Or is this a reflection of where Rugby is at for us as a country and the issue isn't the coaches or even player selection but rather the systems leading up to the national side?

We have a rather long recent history now of a series of coaches struggling to turn our players into a winning team against opposition who just have more depth and seeming quality across the park. This has been reflected in our provincial/SuperRugby sides which haven't had a winning culture or limited success against teams from other countries (NZ & SA in the past) for a good while now.

All that aside, first game with a new coach in a rather trying first assignment. I think there needs to be a degree of perspective and grace given before we can draw any sweeping conclusions how the 2023 version of the Wallabies is traveling.

 

[kiap]

The Aussie DRONGO that took the uneducated flyhack at the loose ball under his own posts only to completely miss and usher in the first bokke stroll-in for 5 did not help either.

Think that was that Ikitau?

 

[PhilClinton]

I dont care about that, the ’second string springboks’ thing was going to get wheeled out win lose or draw, especially by Fox.

Yeh it doesn’t surprise me, but as rugby supporters, we should care about the public perception of our national side. And Fox would be the most widely viewed sports website in Australia.

I dare say 90% of the people who see that headline today didn’t watch the game, so that is their only association with the team at the moment.

 

[liquor box]

Now that we have two captains do they both get a loss against them, or is one the primary co-captain who gets the loss?

 

[Rebel man]

Carter was good, we looked better when he came on.

Quade’s defence that had improved was poor again fell off a number of tackles

 

[Sam Old]

Agree with this.

In the scrum AAA wasn't simply losing out to "shenanigans", he occasionally simply just lost out to Kitshof. Once both bench front rows were on there was pretty clear dominance to the Boks. Got to feel for Nonngorr, but he needs to step up more to be at this level. Congrats to the guy on his cap and he knuckled under with determination. But we will all breathe a sigh of relief when Tupou returns. And Bell.

Thought our lineout started fabulously. Tom and Frost working with Porecki generally held our own throws and forced Bok errors on their throw. For me, the Tom Hooper experiment was an unbridled success. Unfortunately losing Tom early had a big impact on our jumper options, and once Arnold was on our throwing (Uelese) was off. Possibly a combination of throw + set up. Either way we were dominated. I'd be looking at the Skelton selection and I'd want to see more from him in able to justify the forced selections. Or at least I'd have a better recognised jumper than Samu as bench 6.

Add in poor results from our exits, and the penalties, and we were in for punishment. Delivered comfortably by tear Boks. Total territory dominance by the Boks against a Wallaby game plan that was, well... territory.

Some of the results of this can be seen by the involvement of the halves. The total number of passes from White, Cooper, Tate, Carter was 44 (ESPN). Reinach managed 60 on his own. Can't see how we can blame this game on White and Cooper (thought they were contributors to the kicking game).

When fans say, that Hodge has to go, let's not forget that he allowed both Kerevi and Carter on the bench. They've both received the kick-out they needed. I'm not sure we should again rely on the Hodge boot for points, White would do fine I think. But the utility from Hodge does not change with this game.

It was a shocking result, but I'll wait judgement for sea level and as we see more of the first 23 being available.

Not alone, AAA was beaten but Nongorr showed he isn’t anywhere near good enough at this level. Lost every scrum badly once he came on. Eddie’s gambles / genius moves all backfired….SV should return to league, Quade looks like an old bloke playing Div 2 in Japan, T Hooper not even a starter for Super Rugby, R Arnold not convincing and McReight may have injected more than M Hooper, Jordy still can’t throw.

 

[Sam Old]

Do you have a take Reg? What's your thoughts on the game and where to from here?

I do agree there is a lot of gloom here.

Do we have the players, class and experience? Or is this a reflection of where Rugby is at for us as a country and the issue isn't the coaches or even player selection but rather the systems leading up to the national side?

We have a rather long recent history now of a series of coaches struggling to turn our players into a winning team against opposition who just have more depth and seeming quality across the park. This has been reflected in our provincial/SuperRugby sides which haven't had a winning culture or limited success against teams from other countries (NZ & SA in the past) for a good while now.

All that aside, first game with a new coach in a rather trying first assignment. I think there needs to be a degree of perspective and grace given before we can draw any sweeping conclusions how the 2023 version of the Wallabies is traveling.

We have got to start by remembering this is rugby. Start with picking front rowers in all age groups who can scrum rather than just run the ball like League forwards. Stop importing League players straight into the Wallabies like SV , especially when it’s costing top dollars than we don’t have.

 

[stillmissit]

Yes you can. Line out jumpers do it all the time.

It's different on an intercept.

 

[stillmissit]

There were 2 big issues among all the handling errors, penalties and stupid not diving on loose balls - Our backrow were nowhere and I mean all 3 of them, no securing ball at the breakdown, little support for runners (when we had them} and so little pilfering as to be non-existent. There was so little commitment to the breakdown as to be invisible. Hooper tried but failed and he will be lucky to make the RWC. The backs had so little ball how can anyone criticise them?
The second area was EJ (Eddie Jones)'s plan, if you call kicking the ball away at every opportunity, avoiding the breakdown and not chasing kicks, a plan to win a game.
The brightish bits.; Frost went well and I think T. Hooper has a future but not yet, Skelton was OK but the weakness in the front row was obvious.
Kerivi looked the best back when he came on. Koro was his usual high-quality self. Cooper was ok behind a destroyed pack. Hodge tackled well but kicked poorly. Carter Gordon stepped into a difficult game and acquitted himself well.
The Jones era2 had better do better than this mess. Full credit to SA they had a better plan and were up for the game.