Heineken Cup 2013
- Thread starter Bardon
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Bardon
Peter Fenwicke (45)
Racing certainly seem to be a little bit of disarray off the field with as you say the coach on holiday and last year's coach Mannix now at Munster as back coach. I wonder if they're the first to really suffer from the soccer-ization of Rugby with very rich owners expecting instant success?
In this years HEC they haven't done so badly. In the first round of games they took a very big scalp in Munster, albeit a rebuilding Munster team who aren't at their best, but still a big scalp in the HEC. Losing to Saracens away from home was probably expected by most even if it was at a neutral venue. Will be interesting to see how the off-field stuff affects the rest of their campaign.
Maybe Sudrugby who's a Racing fan can give us a little more insight into what's going on with the club and how the fans feel about things.
Italophile
Bill Watson (15)
Tolofua has a discipline problem. He's young, certainly, but this, from yesterday's match, is just ridiculous:
Italophile
Bill Watson (15)
Between 17 and 20,000 depending which report you read.
Bardon
Peter Fenwicke (45)
Stadium looked pretty empty but in fact I'd count it as a commercial success. They got a crowd of 18,212 which is 1,000 more than their temporary home at Vicarage Road. A good many of those would have been travelling Sarries and Racing fans but Sarries would have picked up some Belgian fans too, some of whom will probably follow Sarries for life now.
Sarries are a great model for how to grow a club/franchise in the modern era. They're really making the most of the wait for their new ground. Some clubs/franchises would bemoan the fact they don't have a big enough ground to host their HEC games, but they saw it as an opportunity instead. They've planned to take most of their home games on the road, even last year they tried to play Munster in SA.
I think they're ahead of the curve and they realize it's important to get their brand known early in other markets. We'll probably see a lot more of it in the coming years as other clubs see the potential. Won't be too long until S15 teams are regularly playing games in cities across Asia.
Some fans may not like that development but so far the Sarries fans don't seem to mind. Personally while I think it's clever and fair play to Sarries for doing it I would rather have seen those markets grow from within with local people supporting their local team. But if taking games to those countries stimulates growth and ambition in the local rugby then it's not all bad.
Bardon
Peter Fenwicke (45)
Yes it was a silly thing to do probably would have gotten a straight red if he hadn't picked up a yellow earlier. Good it happened when he's young though. For some young guys sitting in the stands for a while can do more than all the lectures on the importance of discipline in the world.
Bardon
Peter Fenwicke (45)
Agree on that in terms of purists Qwerty but if they're after the fans that like to latch onto successful teams similar to the Manchester United model in soccer then the type of rugby they play might not matter so much as long as they're successful.
I'm thinking of the type of fan who buys the shirt and calls it their team but maybe isn't all that interested in the game itself. It's still money in Sarries pocket though. In terms of the passionate fans who like a better style of Rugby it could back fire a little if they play someone who really turns on the style and wins over the fans.
Still in the end Rugby is the winner if we manage to grow the game a little more. Although personally I'm with you on which type of fans I'd rather see attracted to the game.
Italophile
Bill Watson (15)
They can be v. depressing to watch for sure. Then they come out as against Edinburgh last week and confound everything. Personally I can do without them and the distinctly unpleasant Brendan Venter.
Bardon
Peter Fenwicke (45)
Half time Munster 6 Edinburgh 0. Although the scoreline in reminiscent of Munster teams of old, it belies the ambition and width which this new Muster team try to play. a 6 point lead is scant reward for their dominance of possession and territory.
Edinburgh seem determined not to take the kind of hiding they got last weeks against Saracens and have defended stoutly. They haven't offered much in attack but they came more into the game in the last 10 minutes of the half.
Ian Keatley filling in for the injured O'Gara is more of a running 10 but the crossfield kick he put in for O'Callaghan was straight from ROG's playbook. His kicking from the tee hasn't been to O'Gara's standard however and he's missed a few kickable penalties, although one of them was from his own half.
Munster showed signed from their past again with a couple of strong scrums. When Talei picked up from the back of a scrum 10 metres from his own line he was engulfed by Munster players and driven so far back over his own line he was in danger of going over the dead ball line. Munster seem to be rediscovering some of their grunt of old and prop Kilcoyne has been impressive both in the scrum and in the loose. His more experienced front row partner Botha has been less impressive giving away a couple of penalties in the scrum.
In Lions year it's good to see Paul O'Connell looking like he's getting back to his best. He had a couple of early steals in the lineout and he's carried the ball well. Whether he can stay injury free for the season is another matter. O'Mahony has also stood out with some great carries.
For all their possession and moving the ball Munster have so far lacked a cutting edge. There are signs that they are progressing with their transition to a more expansive team but they have plenty more work to do. There are signs that some of the old Munster grunt is coming back too in the pack and if they can achieve a marriage between the 2 they'll cause some worries all over Europe. For now though they need to find a try to kill off the Edinburgh with a try with Zebo looking the most likely if they can release him to use his pace.
For Edinburgh Dave Denton has looked a real standout as he often does and he's tried to drag his team into the game. With only 6 points in it Edinburgh could very easily pinch this one in the 2nd half.
Edinburgh seem determined not to take the kind of hiding they got last weeks against Saracens and have defended stoutly. They haven't offered much in attack but they came more into the game in the last 10 minutes of the half.
Ian Keatley filling in for the injured O'Gara is more of a running 10 but the crossfield kick he put in for O'Callaghan was straight from ROG's playbook. His kicking from the tee hasn't been to O'Gara's standard however and he's missed a few kickable penalties, although one of them was from his own half.
Munster showed signed from their past again with a couple of strong scrums. When Talei picked up from the back of a scrum 10 metres from his own line he was engulfed by Munster players and driven so far back over his own line he was in danger of going over the dead ball line. Munster seem to be rediscovering some of their grunt of old and prop Kilcoyne has been impressive both in the scrum and in the loose. His more experienced front row partner Botha has been less impressive giving away a couple of penalties in the scrum.
In Lions year it's good to see Paul O'Connell looking like he's getting back to his best. He had a couple of early steals in the lineout and he's carried the ball well. Whether he can stay injury free for the season is another matter. O'Mahony has also stood out with some great carries.
For all their possession and moving the ball Munster have so far lacked a cutting edge. There are signs that they are progressing with their transition to a more expansive team but they have plenty more work to do. There are signs that some of the old Munster grunt is coming back too in the pack and if they can achieve a marriage between the 2 they'll cause some worries all over Europe. For now though they need to find a try to kill off the Edinburgh with a try with Zebo looking the most likely if they can release him to use his pace.
For Edinburgh Dave Denton has looked a real standout as he often does and he's tried to drag his team into the game. With only 6 points in it Edinburgh could very easily pinch this one in the 2nd half.
Bardon
Peter Fenwicke (45)
Final score Munster 33 Edinburgh 0. Munster's first try came from an Edinburgh error. Unfortunately for Edinburgh the only players that stood out were those who made errors. Basilaia twice made errors under the high ball gifting position and possession to Munster. Tonks kicked a clearance dead giving Munster a scrum all the way back in his own 22. From the scrum a Paul O'Connell drive up the middle sucked in the defender and Conor Murray was able to pick and go to run under the posts. Murray's display earned him the man of the match award and it was a big turn around for him from a dismal performance last week.
Munster continues to try to be expansive and persisted with their tactic of playing their 2nd rows on the wings but the 2nd try wouldn't come as they made little headway. The standout moment of this period was a massive hit by captain Howlett.
In the final 10 or so minutes Munster went back to basics with the forwards doing what comes naturally to them. From a lineout they drove to within touching distance of the line and O'Mahony dove over for the try. This seemed to spark Munster into action and an excellent break from Keatley say him go from halfway to within a couple of metres of the line. Sean Doughall who is looking at home at this level went over from the ruck to cap a very good display.
With 3 minutes left Munster went for the bonus point try. Again it came from the pack with Varley peeling off to go over in the corner.
There was a glimpse of the future with JJ Hanrahan coming on for James Downey for the last 10 minutes. Munster have a lot of young talent coming through and their future looks bright but for now they perform best when they dip into the tactics of their past. The transition will be a long process but once they get the blend right they'll be a major force again in Europe.
IN the pool it's still advantage Saracens but that could change with back to back head to heads coming up with Munster which will go a long way to determine who will win the pool. Edinburgh were the surprise package of last years competition, making the Semi Final, the biggest surprise about them this year is their lack of ambition. One would have expected them to want to build on last year but at present they still looking to score their first point on the field left alone gathering points on the table. Their aggregate of 88-0 against says everything about how poor they've been so far this year.
Munster continues to try to be expansive and persisted with their tactic of playing their 2nd rows on the wings but the 2nd try wouldn't come as they made little headway. The standout moment of this period was a massive hit by captain Howlett.
In the final 10 or so minutes Munster went back to basics with the forwards doing what comes naturally to them. From a lineout they drove to within touching distance of the line and O'Mahony dove over for the try. This seemed to spark Munster into action and an excellent break from Keatley say him go from halfway to within a couple of metres of the line. Sean Doughall who is looking at home at this level went over from the ruck to cap a very good display.
With 3 minutes left Munster went for the bonus point try. Again it came from the pack with Varley peeling off to go over in the corner.
There was a glimpse of the future with JJ Hanrahan coming on for James Downey for the last 10 minutes. Munster have a lot of young talent coming through and their future looks bright but for now they perform best when they dip into the tactics of their past. The transition will be a long process but once they get the blend right they'll be a major force again in Europe.
IN the pool it's still advantage Saracens but that could change with back to back head to heads coming up with Munster which will go a long way to determine who will win the pool. Edinburgh were the surprise package of last years competition, making the Semi Final, the biggest surprise about them this year is their lack of ambition. One would have expected them to want to build on last year but at present they still looking to score their first point on the field left alone gathering points on the table. Their aggregate of 88-0 against says everything about how poor they've been so far this year.
Bardon
Peter Fenwicke (45)
In the other game on at the same time Toulon continued their impressive start coming from behind to beat Cardiff 22-14 away. Cardiff now sit with just 1 point from 2 games in a pool they would have fancied their chances progressing from before the start of the tournament. If Sale can beat Montpellier today they could emerge as this year's surprise package.
Collectively I've been impressed most by the French teams while the Welsh teams continue to fall short of their potential. I think it would be great for the competition if a Welsh team won it. The Ospreys are the only Welsh team who've won a game in this year's competition and they're about to kick off against Leicester. Win today and they'll take a big step to representing the principality in the knock out stages.
Collectively I've been impressed most by the French teams while the Welsh teams continue to fall short of their potential. I think it would be great for the competition if a Welsh team won it. The Ospreys are the only Welsh team who've won a game in this year's competition and they're about to kick off against Leicester. Win today and they'll take a big step to representing the principality in the knock out stages.
Italophile
Bill Watson (15)
Toulon had more trouble with the Blues than expected winning 22-14. On paper, with their team of internationals, after a great effort last week, against the Blues who have struggled this season, going down meekly to Sale last week, you'd expect a decent work out and a comfortable Toulon win. You have to expect the unexpected with Toulon. For all the money they spend they can be as disorganised as all get out. The Blues scrapped hard and actually played the better rugby on the day. Some one-out Toulon efforts saw them home. In the final moments, the Toulon front row including Carl Haymans and Andrew Sheridan - goodness knows what the accumulated salary is - collapsed to give away a penalty and 3 points to the Blues. On the plus side, Steffon Armitage continues to earn his money. Arguably the best 7 in NH rugby, there will be calls for him to become a Lion.
Italophile
Bill Watson (15)
We cross-posted, Bardon. Toulon should have done much, much better. Still, a win's a win. I agree about the French teams. Toulouse and Clermont look comfortable. Toulon will have to overcome their schizophrenia.
ACT Crusader
Jim Lenehan (48)
What got me was that Tolofua looked to be genuinely surprised by the 2nd yellow, when it really was going to end up one way. And with 5 minutes to go no less. He will still need a talking to I'd suspect.
Bardon
Peter Fenwicke (45)
Half time Leicester 10 Ospreys 10. The first 15 minutes it was ll Ospreys, Dan Biggar had is backline moving well, Tipuric reigned at the breakdown and Adam Jones was winning the scrum battle. Their try came from a move initiated by Biggar as they swept the ball out wide, Alun Wyn Jones' decoy run fixed the defense and Fussell broke though the gap. The ball was recycled quickly and Ryan Jones went over. Biggar added the extra and later landed a penalty from half way to give them a 10-0 lead.
Then it was as if Leicester suddenly realised they were fighting for their HEC lives. They started to pick and drive and get big men like Goneva and Tuilagi running onto the ball. They were making yards but Ospreys defence held.
It seems like a day for scrum halves to seek redemption with Murray earlier and Youngs in this one. He's been one of the stand outs for Leicester. His brother has had a mixed first half with one good burst and a very crooked lineout throw costing them a good chance to hit back from a lineout 10m out.
Leicester finally added some variation to their power with Flood putting Goneva through a hole and some great hands getting the ball through the backline and out to Tuilagi to score. A Flood penalty a few minutes later and they were level.
This was billed before the game as a battle of the potential Lions tightheads between Adam Jones and Dan Cole. Jones had the better of the earlier exchanges when Ospreys were on top in the first 15 minutes. But as Leicester picked it up they also started to dominate in the scrum. Cole played a big part winning a number of penalties and his opposition Ryan Bevington was yellow carded with 5 minutes to go for repeated infringements in the scrum. At the next scrum Ryan Jones was withdrawn so Ospreys could get prop Duncan Jones onto the field. A worry for Ospreys would be that Ryan Jones seemed to be limping as he came off.
Duncan Jones introduction shored up the Ospreys scrum and it provided a platform for them to put in their only attack since the first 15 minutes. This led to a long range drop goal effort from Biggar but he missed it. Ospreys still have 5 minutes to cope with a man down at the start of the 2nd half and they'll have to rediscover the fire they had in the first 15 minutes if they're to become the first Welsh team to beat Leicester at Welford road. Fascinating game so far.
Then it was as if Leicester suddenly realised they were fighting for their HEC lives. They started to pick and drive and get big men like Goneva and Tuilagi running onto the ball. They were making yards but Ospreys defence held.
It seems like a day for scrum halves to seek redemption with Murray earlier and Youngs in this one. He's been one of the stand outs for Leicester. His brother has had a mixed first half with one good burst and a very crooked lineout throw costing them a good chance to hit back from a lineout 10m out.
Leicester finally added some variation to their power with Flood putting Goneva through a hole and some great hands getting the ball through the backline and out to Tuilagi to score. A Flood penalty a few minutes later and they were level.
This was billed before the game as a battle of the potential Lions tightheads between Adam Jones and Dan Cole. Jones had the better of the earlier exchanges when Ospreys were on top in the first 15 minutes. But as Leicester picked it up they also started to dominate in the scrum. Cole played a big part winning a number of penalties and his opposition Ryan Bevington was yellow carded with 5 minutes to go for repeated infringements in the scrum. At the next scrum Ryan Jones was withdrawn so Ospreys could get prop Duncan Jones onto the field. A worry for Ospreys would be that Ryan Jones seemed to be limping as he came off.
Duncan Jones introduction shored up the Ospreys scrum and it provided a platform for them to put in their only attack since the first 15 minutes. This led to a long range drop goal effort from Biggar but he missed it. Ospreys still have 5 minutes to cope with a man down at the start of the 2nd half and they'll have to rediscover the fire they had in the first 15 minutes if they're to become the first Welsh team to beat Leicester at Welford road. Fascinating game so far.
Italophile
Bill Watson (15)
Bardon, Cole hasn't bound legally once in the match. Binding on the arm, giant paw on the ground a couple of times for balance. He's been pulling Bevington down. Poite has butchered Os in the scrum.
Bardon
Peter Fenwicke (45)
I think Cole was doing the right thing playing to the ref. Poite had it in his head that Bevington was the problem. With him off Ospreys won a penalty from the first scrum through Duncan Jones. It was a stupid decision to bring Bevington back on after the sin bin. He gave away a crucial penalty to give Leicester the lead then they had to hook him straight away. Now he's off again they're winning penalties at the scrum.
Italophile
Bill Watson (15)
Well, Poite was letting Cole bind illegally so, yes, he might as well keep doing it. Silly to bring Bevington back on, I agree. Poite has always been clueless at scrumtime. Good Leicester win in the end even if a couple of fortuitous tries set up the bonus point. What a massive difference Ben Youngs makes when he's on song.
Bardon
Peter Fenwicke (45)
Final score Leicester 39 Ospreys 22. From Leicester's point of view the 2nd half was almost the Toby Flood show. He played really well including landing 2 penalties from his own half and scoring an intercept try. Dan Biggar kept his team in it kicking the penalties to stay in with a chance of pinching the win. But it was he who threw the intercept pass for Flood.
After that Biggar landed another penalty to bring the Ospreys back into contention at 29-22 down. However in the space of a few minutes the Ospreys went from a possible draw to defending desperately to keep Leicester out for the bonus point try. Leicester's 3rd try again came from an Ospreys mistake on attack. They spilled the ball to Leicester who put in what looked like a innocuous punt up field. But the bounce wrong footed the Ospreys defence and Mafi put man of the match Youngs through to score.
Leicester then went up through the gears in search of the 4th try. Desperate defence from the Ospreys couldn't prevent Tuilagi from going over in the corner.
Ospreys really played their part in what was a fantastic game of Rugby but they having nothing to shoe for their efforts. Leicester are back in the hunt in the pool and Ospreys have a tough back to back with Toulouse coming up.
After that Biggar landed another penalty to bring the Ospreys back into contention at 29-22 down. However in the space of a few minutes the Ospreys went from a possible draw to defending desperately to keep Leicester out for the bonus point try. Leicester's 3rd try again came from an Ospreys mistake on attack. They spilled the ball to Leicester who put in what looked like a innocuous punt up field. But the bounce wrong footed the Ospreys defence and Mafi put man of the match Youngs through to score.
Leicester then went up through the gears in search of the 4th try. Desperate defence from the Ospreys couldn't prevent Tuilagi from going over in the corner.
Ospreys really played their part in what was a fantastic game of Rugby but they having nothing to shoe for their efforts. Leicester are back in the hunt in the pool and Ospreys have a tough back to back with Toulouse coming up.
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