Selection politics and bias, Gold Squads unfairness etc.

[George Smith]

That list is far too detailed to be derived from FB or George Jnr's knowledge given that George Jnr would only know about boys at his JGP venue and then again probably only the boys in his age bracket. Given that the ARU has not published a list as they did last year I expect George Snr has some relationship with the ARU Jnr HPU either directly or perhaps as one of their talent scouts.

There were 196 invitations initially. You may be disappointed to hear that I have a life other than serving G&G!

 

[Wannabe Selector]

This a very useful breakdown George, I can use this down in the Illawarra to help overcome the Private school preception issue as:

• Holy Spirit Bellambi got 3 in (Gareth Thomas, Kieran Bonin and Tristan Green, some of you have been following these guys).
• Berkley sports high got at least 2 (Tommy Sawden, Reece Hewat).
• Many from other CCC schools and CHS.

I'll work and produce a more complete breakdown, but this gives me good amunition to counter the "you have to go to a rugby private school to make it in rugby" perception.

Maybe that is right that " you have to go to a private rugby school to make it in rugby" is true, as I have heard Reece Hewatt has accepted a scholarship to Nudgee College in Queensland. As you probably know he received the best forward award up in Queensland for the NSW 15s, was then selected in CHS opens for the NZ tour. He is at Illawarra Sports High School and was involved in the team that won the Buchan Shield this year. He was also captain of the Illawarra 15s last year and had already started trials this year for Illawarra 16s. An amazing rugby player good luck to him and I hope he takes advantage of the good education that will be given to him.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Maybe that is right that " you have to go to a private rugby school to make it in rugby" is true, as I have heard Reece Hewatt has accepted a scholarship to Nudgee College in Queensland. As you probably know he received the best forward award up in Queensland for the NSW 15s, was then selected in CHS opens for the NZ tour. He is at Illawarra Sports High School and was involved in the team that won the Buchan Shield this year. He was also captain of the Illawarra 15s last year and had already started trials this year for Illawarra 16s. An amazing rugby player good luck to him and I hope he takes advantage of the good education that will be given to him.

Long commute

 

[Hugie]

George,

Thanks for your offer. However my audiance isn't the Illawarra Stakeholder but the boys themselves. League is strong here and we loose a lot of players (particularly centers and wings) due to the perception that you get a fairer go with "our game".
The statistical error won't be a problem I'm a Chemical Engineer and have been stretching the truth with statistics all my working life. The boys won't pick up the logic error (I'll be impressed if they do, maybe some of you are reading this).
Unfortunately whilst people aren't impressed with statistics they are impressed with individual stories, if Reece is off to Nudgee this will count for more, they all know Reece. I'll see what I can find out this Sunday.

 

[Quick Hands]

Bit of a surprise to see more ISA representation than CAS.

quote]





.

.It might be a surprise to some, but ISA rugby has certainly improved in the last 5 years. CAS schools probably have more numbers playing through the age groups, but Pats, Oakhill and Augustines run very strong rugby programmes from 13s to opens.

In 2012, the way the GPS and ISA draws worked, the GPS schools that had the bye or the SGS/SHS/TAS round often played the bigger ISA schools who played Andrews and Gregs. I had a look at the results as the season went on (publicly available through school newsletters on websites). A rough summary would be when Augustines and Oakhill played the GPS schools in the 13-16 age groups, the spoils were fairly evenly divided for A teams. GPS probably had the better of Pats.

Unfortunately little opportunity for CAS/ISA matches as CAS had 6 team/2 round competition

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Quick Hands, I had noted that this year Oakhill were nearly the undefeated premiers of, CAS based on them beating everyone less Trinity, and if Augies had played a few more of the CAS teams, they would have been pushing Oaks for the CAS Premiers title.

Notwithstanding, IIRC CAS cleaned up ISA in the Opens Rep Schoolboys team rather convincingly with the scores reversed in the Under 16's where ISA looked very impressive.

ISA also "call" on lads from Stannies and Kinross who would not be listed in Sydney JGP squads. I would imagine that there are a few of those boys in the Central West JGP (if there is such a beast).

St Pats Strathfield shows what can happen if a CCC type school moves from mungo to Heavensgame (late 70's I think). They have teams down to E's at least in all age groups.

 

[Quick Hands]

Quick Hands, I had noted that this year Oakhill were nearly the undefeated premiers of, CAS based on them beating everyone less Trinity, and if Augies had played a few more of the CAS teams, they would have been pushing Oaks for the CAS Premiers title.

Notwithstanding, IIRC CAS cleaned up ISA in the Opens Rep Schoolboys team rather convincingly with the scores reversed in the Under 16's where ISA looked very impressive.

ISA also "call" on lads from Stannies and Kinross who would not be listed in Sydney JGP squads. I would imagine that there are a few of those boys in the Central West JGP (if there is such a beast).

St Pats Strathfield shows what can happen if a CCC type school moves from mungo to Heavensgame (late 70's I think). They have teams down to E's at least in all age groups.

Augustines have also shown what can be done. 10 years ago they could barely field 1 team in each age group and an opens team. Soccer waqs their main sport (I believe that they still have more soccer teams than rugby teams). Came last in Div 2 in their first year of ISA. Couldn't win a game when they went up to Div 1 and now 4 teams in each age group, quality all the way through.

Doesn't matter whether its GPS, CAS, ISA or anything else, if you have a comprehensive coaching programme based on skill development starting at 13s (or before) then you will reap the results. You won't win every game, but you'll always be competitive.

 

[Jasdec]

Quick Hands,
ISA also "call" on lads from Stannies and Kinross who would not be listed in Sydney JGP squads. I would imagine that there are a few of those boys in the Central West JGP (if there is such a beast).

Definitely such a beast, usually run out of Orange which is more central to Dubbo and Bathurst.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Doesn't matter whether its GPS, CAS, ISA or anything else, if you have a comprehensive coaching programme based on skill development starting at 13s (or before) then you will reap the results. You won't win every game, but you'll always be competitive.

AMEN to that brother.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[CTPE]

There were 196 invitations initially. You may be disappointed to hear that I have a life other than serving G&G!

Put the list up George

 

[whatever]

Put the list up George

George,

Are you able to list the boys from the CCC and CHS schools (non-union schools) who were invited into the JGS program?

I believe by listing the invites from the GPS, CAS and IAS schools will only create discussions on who missed out and why etc?

But listing the boys from the non-traditional union schools might show (in a postive light) that the ARU are taking steps to identify talented individuals and spread the program across a greater spectrum.

 

[Hugie]

George,

I will have to take you up on your offer to provide the Illawarra JGS name. I can get the U17s but the younger ones ellude me.

I haven't been able to nail the Reece Hewatt to Nudgee rumour, he has been offered a scholarship but don't know if he has/will accept.

The Illawarra JGS trained with the Sydney east squad at Scotts today. I thought both squads were about the same standard and both groups of boys were prepared to interact with eachother, both groups seemed like fine young men, unless you knew you couldn't pick them apart. The Illawarra JGS boys will now take the story back that the Newington and Scots JGS boys (at least) are no different to them, let's hope they spread the word far and wide.

Prima faci the selectors and coaches seem to be selecting and coaching to the same standard.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

That is a great observation @hughie. Some Gaggerlanders get stuck into Manu, Hugh, Ben et al at rep schoolboy selection time.

I have never been able to understand basis of the the claims of undue influence from the HPU staff.

The HPU seem to be pretty much on the money in regards to who is in the programme and the actual contents and execution of the programme.

I haven't seen the programme out of Sydney, and it is refreshing to hear that the Illawarra boys are of a similar standard and that the curriculum is effectively identical.

Most of the problem come rep time seems to come from scorned parents rather than the boys themselves.

There are some very fine young men in the JGS and NGS programmes. This is a credit to their parents, club and school coaches and the ARU HPU.

These boys are the future of Heavensgame, whether they make Wobs, Super Rugby or decide to stay with Subbies footy for fun.

 

[Gooner]

George,

The Illawarra JGS trained with the Sydney east squad at Scotts today. I thought both squads were about the same standard and both groups of boys were prepared to interact with eachother, both groups seemed like fine young men, unless you knew you couldn't pick them apart. The Illawarra JGS boys will now take the story back that the Newington and Scots JGS boys (at least) are no different to them, let's hope they spread the word far and wide.

Prima faci the selectors and coaches seem to be selecting and coaching to the same standard.

Our junior had to miss today's session at Scott's. The doctor convinced his mother that the blister on his heel needed 4 days rest without shoes. Sometimes you just have to go along with the good doctors advice.

The intensity of the last few sessions has increased and all the boys appear to be really enjoying the sevens aside games. I would have been interested in seeing the standard of the Illawarra boys. No doubt there would have been comparable ability on an individual basis. There is a big talent pool in the Illawarra with most being attracted to league.

There is one more week of the program left until the Christmas break. My lad in conjunction with another JGP boy will play in a Harold Mathews Trial on Saturday for the Sharks against South Sydney. Supposedly the Rabbits will be the benchmark Harold Mathews side this year with three Australian Schoolboys (league) in the side.

 

[Lindommer]

St Pat's Strathfield shows what can happen if a CCC type school moves from mungo to Heavensgame (late 70s I think). They have teams down to Es at least in all age groups.

St Pat's played league up until 1964. As sport was compulsory, and it's a largish school, they always fielded more teams than their opponents. Getting games for the lower grades became an insurmountable problem playing league so they switched to rugby for the 1965 season. Trinity, Newington and Joeys immediately offered St Pat's fixtures and they haven't looked back.

During the last decade soccer's taken a firm hold at St Pat's. It's a result of the gentrification of the inner-west combined with the increasing numbers of boys from a Mediterranean background; their all-powerful mothers don't get rugby and think it's a brutal, dangerous game. MMmm? They should do a head count at the local physio practices on Mondays where the soccer players outnumber all the other codes put together. At last count St Pat's had more soccer internationals than rugby ones.

Lastly: HJ, St Pat's was a "CCC type school" as you put it up until 1990. In that year there was a meeting to establish another grouping of schools not in the GPS or CAS associations to participate in organised Saturday sport. St Pat's and SCECGS Redlands were instrumental in setting up the ISA grouping. I don't think there are any independent Catholic schools in Sydney not in either the GPS, CAS or ISA associations, all the remaining diocesan schools are in the CCC and MCC associations.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

It would seem that the ISA model would seem to be the best and most flexible of the existing competitions for "Fringe" schools to join in.

They have at least two divisions in rugby which gives scope for Schools to move up and down as their demographic changes.

With Augies and St Gregs recently joining them and appearing to go from strength to strength within the ISA model, they must be doing something right.

It would be nice to see rugby have a higher profile within the rest of the Catholic system.

 

[Quick Hands]

It would seem that the ISA model would seem to be the best and most flexible of the existing competitions for "Fringe" schools to join in.

They have at least two divisions in rugby which gives scope for Schools to move up and down as their demographic changes.

With Augies and St Gregs recently joining them and appearing to go from strength to strength within the ISA model, they must be doing something right.

It would be nice to see rugby have a higher profile within the rest of the Catholic system.

The establishment of ISA has allowed many schools not in the GPS or CAS systems to have a Saturday sport competition. As the GPS and CAS have not admitted any new member schools for some time (1906 for GPS - High and 1944 for CAS - Waverley), ISA came into being for those schools outside those 2 associations. ISA has done a great job bringing schools in, although there is a distinction between Full Member and Associate Member status. In their Div 1 rugby, Augustines, Gregs and Kinross are still associates with no voting rights or say in how the competition is run. I would assume there is a similar distinction in other ISA sports.

I'm not sure why there is such a distinction, there might be a time period, or a set number of sports to be played before a school becomes a full member or maybe the schools concerned are happy with associate status. Someone with greater knowledge of matters ISA would be needed to help there.

The 2 division set-up is good too, although lopsided scorelines particularly in age group teams are becoming more common in Div 1. Andrews, Pius and Gregs seem to be falling behind the other schools (although it must be said that Gregs have only been in for 3 years or so).

All things considered though, ISA has been a massive plus for school sport in general and rugby in particular.

 

[Sydney Rugby tragic]

George,

I will have to take you up on your offer to provide the Illawarra JGS name. I can get the U17s but the younger ones ellude me.

I haven't been able to nail the Reece Hewatt to Nudgee rumour, he has been offered a scholarship but don't know if he has/will accept.

The Illawarra JGS trained with the Sydney east squad at Scotts today. I thought both squads were about the same standard and both groups of boys were prepared to interact with eachother, both groups seemed like fine young men, unless you knew you couldn't pick them apart. The Illawarra JGS boys will now take the story back that the Newington and Scots JGS boys (at least) are no different to them, let's hope they spread the word far and wide.

Prima faci the selectors and coaches seem to be selecting and coaching to the same standard.

Hughie
Everybody in the illawarra knows Reece Hewett is going to Nudgee.
Tommy Sawden has scholarship forms for Kings & is also training with West Harbour senior squad & by All accounts is training at a very high standard, so the illawarra might just lose its 2 best prospects .
Even us in Sydney know what's going on in your district Hugh.

 

[Hugie]

Sydney Rugby,

Yes Reece is off to Nudgee. I understand that Tommy is still wavering on taking up the "dreadlocks" scholarship with Kings. However there are still plenty more where they came from. AND we haven't lost as many as we have in the past.
Watch the Illawarra U17 team this year.

 

[Sydney Rugby tragic]

Sydney Rugby,

Yes Reece is off to Nudgee. I understand that Tommy is still wavering on taking up the "dreadlocks" scholarship with Kings. However there are still plenty more where they came from. AND we haven't lost as many as we have in the past.
Watch the Illawarra U17 team this year.

Hugh
Sorry don't understand the Dredlock scholarship remark!!!
The Illawarra team will depend on our Campbelltown
Boys trialling for that team.
Watched my boy play at illawarra last season plus Country & Nationals
& you need the Polynesian boys & Tommy .
Also Keiron ???(sorry cant place his surname)
These boys are the Illawarra team backbone.
Also where are the other players coming from &who are they..