James Horwill cited for stamping

[KOB1987]

Are there legal grounds for the team/ARU to refuse to play?

that would go down well!!

 

[Sully]

Horwills media call has been rescheduled to 1pm.

 

[Braveheart81]

If it wasn't before, we're in denial of natural justice territory.

Are there legal grounds for the team/ARU to refuse to play?

The law of common sense would suggest that this is a terrible idea regardless of what happens.

 

[Christopher McDonald]

I think Horwill should have received a two week ban because I believe it was reckless, if not indeed intentional. Having gone through the judicial review and being found innocent, however, I think that should stand. The IRB shouldn't get involved in decisions that they obviously disapprove of, as it undermines the process completely.

 

[Brisbok]

Clyde Rathbone's opinion on this incident:

Which brings me to James Horwill and what I’ve learnt from his citing debacle:

I usually have little use for the word clusterf–k, and yet I am entirely unable to find a substitute that accurately conveys the state of foul play citings in rugby union.

While I don’t have any reason to think Horwill’s stomp was, intentional it was certainly dangerous, and he will do very well to avoid a ban of some sort. Horwill being a good captain and a quality bloke, and the rarity and prestige of this Lions tour deserve no place in this discourse.

Should children get involved in a sport that might someday result in them catching a boot full of studs in the face, all because a 120kg giant couldn’t balance himself? Not really.

http://www.theroar.com.au/2013/07/02/rathbone-head-injuries-represent-rugbys-greatest-threat/

 

[en_force_er]

I hope Horwill doesn't get banned, but it'd be a great story for MMM to come in 3rd test if we won.

Really though, would you trust this man to run a judicial process.....

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Horwills media call has been rescheduled to 1pm.

Just more disruption so the IRB could appoint an expat to "do the right thing".
He should have been here in our time zone if any of this is justifiable.

 

[Boomer]

The law of common sense would suggest that this is a terrible idea regardless of what happens.

If it is an injustice, abiding with the IRB doesn't send the right message

 

[Pusser]

Well what do you suggest? Do they just change the decision without going through a proper mediating process?

The logical precedent they are establishing is that you do not need judicial hearings. If the IRB just ignores the independent decision and keeps appointing independent judicial officers, they may as well just issue the penalty without any hearing at all.


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[Braveheart81]

If it is an injustice, abiding with the IRB doesn't send the right message

... and what sort of message would not playing the biggest test Australia has been involved in since the 2003 RWC final send?

Let's remember that the message that goes to three old blokes wearing blazers in London also goes to 80,000 people who are going to turn up on Saturday night, 1.2 million or so who will watch it on TV in Australia and millions and millions of rugby fans around the world.

If the ARU wanted to cease to exist, throwing all their toys of the cot and not playing on Saturday night would be a great way to go about it.

 

[Try-ranosaurus Rex]

If it is an injustice, abiding with the IRB doesn't send the right message

Depends on how you define 'injustice' or indeed for whom the injustice has been caused.

I'm sure the BIL would argue that injustice has already been served with Horwill getting off.

I for one think this whole thing has turned into a fucking debacle.

 

[smartcooky]

Not sure there was not the slightest suggestion of such a thing having had occurred.... I was at the game and didn't see anything - but the Leinster fans certainly posted about it afterwards including some pretty damning pictures - which I did see. Have just done a quick search and can't find a link the stills that were published four years ago but from memory it occurrred when there was a bit of a scrap involving both teams - shaggy came in and paullie dragged him out by his eyesockets. I acknowledge it never made the papers, but it was all over the bulletin boards. Pretty poor that I can't post evidence, I accept, but perhaps the public forums are harder to find things on four years later. Actually surprised by this reaction, certainly my Leinster mates were aware of this (but perhaps thats because I live in Dublin)???? That wasn't meant to be the point of my post and I certainly hope it doesn't detract from the point, which is that rugby has a problem that needs to be fixed, but this is not the way of doing it.

Is this what you are looking for

 

[biggsy]

Clyde Rathbone's opinion on this incident:

http://www.theroar.com.au/2013/07/02/rathbone-head-injuries-represent-rugbys-gpreatest-threat/

Quoted from Clyde " but Should children get involved in a sport that might someday result in them catching a boot full of studs in the face, all because a 120kg giant couldn’t balance himself? Not really."

I came see where he is coming from, BUT if you think your not going to go through a Rugby career or even grade rugby with some sort of ruck on the head ,neck,chest, back, legs your in the wrong game and should fuck off to NRL and get punched in the face.
Or play on the wing, actually Rathbone is a winger, I get it now.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

The longer the delay the more amateur the IRB look.


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[Dam0]

I hope the ARU has plenty of white armbands at the ready. That would stir things up a bit.

 

[Brisbok]

Or play on the wing, actually Rathbone is a winger, I get it now.

Ha that's right, Rathbone was one of those players who shied away from physical contact wasn't he......

 

[Set piece magic]

I hope this bodyline spirit makes the Wallaby players blood go to 500 centigrade... would love nothing more than to shut the whinging british media up with an emphatic 4 tries to nil defeat of the whingers

 

[Try-ranosaurus Rex]

I hope this bodyline spirit makes the Wallaby players blood go to 500 centigrade. would love nothing more than to shut the whinging british media up with an emphatic 4 tries to nil defeat of the whingers

I was speaking t an Irish mate last night about exactly this. He believes regardless of the outcome the Australians will be incensed and will galvanise as a team as a result.

I hope he is right.

He hopes he is wrong.

Bring it on.

 

[Richo]

Does a sporting tribunal have to act like a court of law?

I'd have thought that it did not. It's not created by statute and it's not governed by legal precedent or by the same rules of evidence and so on. The lawyer-ification of such processes (ie Horwill having a QC (Quade Cooper) present) seems to be an offshoot of the stakes involved rather than something native to the institution. Appointing a QC (Quade Cooper) to arbitrate is more about professionalism and independence than anything else. All of which is to say that appealing to ideas like double jeopardy might be nice in theory but not applicable in reality.

 

[Bullrush]

Here's something on the Adam Thompson case that may shed some light on the IRB's stance here.

If you have time, go and take a look at what the IRB Discplinary Laws and Regulations are to get a look at how the judicial, discplinary and appeal officers etc are appointed and how the Thompson case is actually relevant and consistent with the Horwill one.

Now I'm not saying that the process is the best you can get or that it's right - I'm just saying that there is actually a process and the IRB is following the Laws and Regulations.

As custodians of Rugby worldwide, the IRB has a duty to protect its image, values and integrity together with the welfare of players at all levels in order that the sport can continue its unprecedented growth and welcome more men, women and children to the Rugby family.

At the very heart of this mission is the universal application of the disciplinary process as set out in Regulation 17. This IRB Disciplinary regulation is intended to protect all players and the Game through the strict application of a sanctioning regime that acts as a strong deterrent against acts of foul play.

This stance was reaffirmed by leading international players, coaches, referees and administrators attending the IRB Morality Conference in London in March this year who unanimously agreed that a tough and consistent stance on discipline is key to Rugby's integrity.

After careful consideration and having reviewed the full written decision in the Thomson case well within the permitted 72 hours of receipt, the IRB strongly believes that the sanction of one week is unduly lenient for this particular act of foul play and not aligned with the sanctions handed down in similar cases.

The IRB firmly believes it is in the best interests of the Game and its integrity to exercise its ability to appeal the Thomson decision. The right of appeal by the IRB (in defined circumstances) and for Host Unions and tournament organisers was introduced into the revised Regulation 17 effective on June 1 this year to uphold the integrity of the disciplinary process in appropriate cases.