Considering Crawford and Folau are two of the top tryscorers in Super Rugby I am unsure if this argument holds water.
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Wallabies - a changing of the guard
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Considering Crawford and Folau are two of the top tryscorers in Super Rugby I am unsure if this argument holds water.
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His kicking for the Wallabies has been perfect so far. I think his long term success rate for the Brumbies doesn't put him in the same league as the players I mentioned previously though. He needs to work on that though because we need him to be that good if we want to be the best.
The biggest problem with his goalkicking is his range. We either need a kicking coach to increase that or have someone else who is good enough to slot them consistently from 50-55m.
Tight head is number 3. Palmer is off overseas. I'll be surprised if he plays for the Wallabies again before he leaves. Same with Kimlin.
He deserves another go but his defense was troubling on Sat.
14 attempted tackles, made 8 (57%) 1 ineffective (7%) missed 5 (36%)
http://www.rugbystats.com.au/matches/rugby/match22232.html
Brumby Runner
David Wilson (68)
As I said, Siliva to come in only if TPN doesn't come back. No argument there. But look to the coach quoted in your signature bar; didn't Dwyer bring Kearns from Randwick 2nd grade straight into the Wallabies? And that proved a winner. I can also see Siliva being a much better long tern option at 2 than either Hanson or Saia.
Kevinsons
Frank Nicholson (4)
I just hope whoever the new coach is, just locks Quade and To'omua in the side. Quade can start, with To'omua on the bench to have the last 20 - 30 of each game to bring him up to speed. Ideally one of the two will stand up as a proper test player and then take ownership of the role.
Hopefully Quade and Matt can show us all their quality in the super rugby finals series which arguably starts this week with jostling for ladder positions etc...
Hopefully Quade and Matt can show us all their quality in the super rugby finals series which arguably starts this week with jostling for ladder positions etc...
Bardon
Peter Fenwicke (45)
I think under a new coach no one should be a nailed on starter. Every position should be up for grabs and everyone in contention for a starting spot given a fair shake.
TRC will probably see fewer new caps with the ABs up first. Then after that a decision has to be made if a GS tour win is worth more than giving guys game time to see how they go at test level.
They are tough choices but for me I'd put the long term needs of the team ahead of short term respectability.
Also I hope whoever gets the Wallabies gig makes it clear that players will be considered in the position they play their super rugby.
They won't be discarded, but expectations may be raised
and the game before he did well
Best we have while Higgers is wounded
So Slipper is crap now?
No evidence of that yet, Hansen would be more likely in the next year or two
Alexander didn't turn crap overnight
Maybe, but Pyle needs to play tighter to me.
Plenty of 6 options about, Jones, Dennis & Quirk are all options as well
Agreed
Nup, Cooper still won't man up in defense, To'omua is a better option,
All solid options
yep
And a few others, i still see JOC (James O'Connor) as a solid 14/15
disagree
The Red Baron
Chilla Wilson (44)
There are some key areas that have been touched on and debated in this thread and others, and I want to bring them together in one post.
Whether we want to accept it or not, two major aspects of rugby are scrums and kicking (both out of the hand and goal). There are many other elements that make up a successful team, but you will always find the most successful teams generally have a good THP, and 1-2 brilliant tactical kickers - including goal kicking.
Of course there are many other elements that come into play, but these two areas have been the Wallabies' achilles heel for a long time now. Our kickers have generally been fair to poor, and we haven't had a good THP in an age. Teams beat us by pinning us in our own half, and then bleed us of points by allowing our scrum to deteriorate.
Whatever personnel are shifted around as a result of the incoming coach, ensuring that we cover the above areas is the most critical. We have the kickers in the system; you could see that with Mogg's kicking game on the weekend. Nic White, Matt To'omua, Will Genia (when he doesn't play like a bag of shit) have good boots, and Cooper has really been working on his kicking. Lilo is first choice goalkicker, no question. THP is a little more worrying though, but it is something that needs to be addressed if we want to be a successful team.
I am sick to death of watching these blokes getting beaten up at scrumtime, only for the ball to get hacked 15 meters when it does come out of the scrum. I suppose what we could also do is make up a list of elements of a successful rugby team, then list the players that satisfy the respective criteria.
Whether we want to accept it or not, two major aspects of rugby are scrums and kicking (both out of the hand and goal). There are many other elements that make up a successful team, but you will always find the most successful teams generally have a good THP, and 1-2 brilliant tactical kickers - including goal kicking.
- The Lions squad had Adam Jones as their primary THP, and Halfpenny and Sexton as their kickers.
- In 2011, the AB's had Owen Franks at their primary THP, with Carter, Cruden and Dagg as their primary kickers.
- The Boks in 2007 had van der Linde, and the Doctor as their THPs, at a time when both players were scrummaging quite well. They had blokes like Percy and F.Steyn doing their kicking. In 2009, they had M. Steyn kicking for them.
- The English who won in 2003 had Phil Vickery as their THP, with Wilkinson doing most of the kicking.
Of course there are many other elements that come into play, but these two areas have been the Wallabies' achilles heel for a long time now. Our kickers have generally been fair to poor, and we haven't had a good THP in an age. Teams beat us by pinning us in our own half, and then bleed us of points by allowing our scrum to deteriorate.
Whatever personnel are shifted around as a result of the incoming coach, ensuring that we cover the above areas is the most critical. We have the kickers in the system; you could see that with Mogg's kicking game on the weekend. Nic White, Matt To'omua, Will Genia (when he doesn't play like a bag of shit) have good boots, and Cooper has really been working on his kicking. Lilo is first choice goalkicker, no question. THP is a little more worrying though, but it is something that needs to be addressed if we want to be a successful team.
I am sick to death of watching these blokes getting beaten up at scrumtime, only for the ball to get hacked 15 meters when it does come out of the scrum. I suppose what we could also do is make up a list of elements of a successful rugby team, then list the players that satisfy the respective criteria.
Ash
Michael Lynagh (62)
The easy answer to the question of which players will lose out, is to ask which players are Deans' favourites? And, which players are in Deans' bad books?
I think that both McKenzie and White would have both Cooper and To'omua on the team, one starting, the other on the bench. EOYT (or injuries) would see likely Foley get a call up, too.
Wouldn't be surprised to see Phipps being replaced by White as the second halfback. Phipps brought some good energy, but his passing was like the Harbour Bridge. Test halfbacks need flat, quick passes, something Phipps lacks.
Palu I am not so sure on. I think Palu benefited hugely by Higgers' injury, but I thought that Palu played a good game on Saturday, better than some of the other Wallaby players. Palu's issue is consistency and maintaining the rage while he is on; he's not an 80 minute player anymore (he can play 80, but won't likely contribute too much at the end) so you need to carry cover on the bench. I think that Palu will continue in at least the Wallaby squad with McKenzie and White.
Beale I would be surprised to see in the Wallaby squad again this year. Beale had some good impact at times, but this was overruled by his poor defence and his error ridden contributions, something another player could have offered but Deans ignored for supposedly those reasons. Combined with his and JOC (James O'Connor)'s bad behaviour, I think Beale will be gone for the rest of this year. Hopefully Beale will play his way back into the squad from S15 rugby next year.
JOC (James O'Connor) is obvious, but still offers huge utility from the bench if needed (although with either Cooper or To'omua on the bench I think we might carry another outside back instead). Would be surprised to see him excluded, though, unless discplinary reasons.
McCabe is too obvious, Alexander also too obvious, and Barnes going overseas. (Deans loved his limited players who tried hard and did exactly as Deans said, think McCabe, Caleb Ralph, Reuben Thorne, for examples.)
Simmons may struggle to retain his position. I actually don't think that Simmons is as bad as many imply, but I do think that we have some other second rowers with more impact in the offing. Pyle and Neville are a good start, then there is a potentially fit 3M, and the Brumbies have some guys in their late 20s (Carter, Fardy) who could potentially make the step up. Douglas needs to improve too after two lack lustre showings, so both Simmons and Douglas could be losers. Both have had the chance, and may need to go back to Super 15 rugby next year to again prove their value.
TPN is an interesting one. Deans favoured TPN as a starter over Moore which many did not understand, but I expect that the next coach will prefer Moore when both are fit and TPN will be off the bench. TPN should still be in the top two hookers in Aus, but will likely be cemented behind Moore.
Agree on Hooper playing second fiddle to a breakdown specialist like Gill, then Pocock (to replace Gill) next year.
Dennis may struggle to retain a squad spot too, with it potentially going to a younger player with potential who could be developed.
I think that both McKenzie and White would have both Cooper and To'omua on the team, one starting, the other on the bench. EOYT (or injuries) would see likely Foley get a call up, too.
Wouldn't be surprised to see Phipps being replaced by White as the second halfback. Phipps brought some good energy, but his passing was like the Harbour Bridge. Test halfbacks need flat, quick passes, something Phipps lacks.
Palu I am not so sure on. I think Palu benefited hugely by Higgers' injury, but I thought that Palu played a good game on Saturday, better than some of the other Wallaby players. Palu's issue is consistency and maintaining the rage while he is on; he's not an 80 minute player anymore (he can play 80, but won't likely contribute too much at the end) so you need to carry cover on the bench. I think that Palu will continue in at least the Wallaby squad with McKenzie and White.
Beale I would be surprised to see in the Wallaby squad again this year. Beale had some good impact at times, but this was overruled by his poor defence and his error ridden contributions, something another player could have offered but Deans ignored for supposedly those reasons. Combined with his and JOC (James O'Connor)'s bad behaviour, I think Beale will be gone for the rest of this year. Hopefully Beale will play his way back into the squad from S15 rugby next year.
JOC (James O'Connor) is obvious, but still offers huge utility from the bench if needed (although with either Cooper or To'omua on the bench I think we might carry another outside back instead). Would be surprised to see him excluded, though, unless discplinary reasons.
McCabe is too obvious, Alexander also too obvious, and Barnes going overseas. (Deans loved his limited players who tried hard and did exactly as Deans said, think McCabe, Caleb Ralph, Reuben Thorne, for examples.)
Simmons may struggle to retain his position. I actually don't think that Simmons is as bad as many imply, but I do think that we have some other second rowers with more impact in the offing. Pyle and Neville are a good start, then there is a potentially fit 3M, and the Brumbies have some guys in their late 20s (Carter, Fardy) who could potentially make the step up. Douglas needs to improve too after two lack lustre showings, so both Simmons and Douglas could be losers. Both have had the chance, and may need to go back to Super 15 rugby next year to again prove their value.
TPN is an interesting one. Deans favoured TPN as a starter over Moore which many did not understand, but I expect that the next coach will prefer Moore when both are fit and TPN will be off the bench. TPN should still be in the top two hookers in Aus, but will likely be cemented behind Moore.
Agree on Hooper playing second fiddle to a breakdown specialist like Gill, then Pocock (to replace Gill) next year.
Dennis may struggle to retain a squad spot too, with it potentially going to a younger player with potential who could be developed.
Thanks BH, Wasn't aware that both were heading overseas either way Benny A is not the answer as good as he is around the field. Saw the new addition of the beasties supporter to your profile. Its no wonder we butt heads on opinion
scaraby
Ron Walden (29)
We all seem to be picking 2 starters in each position with most picking 1 of those on the bench..how many positions can QC (Quade Cooper) and To'omua cover? Would you have both in the same team?
You have Lilo who is a pretty tidy ten at 12.
Foley is a v good 10 and 15.
JOC (James O'Connor) if started at 11 can cover 12 and 15.
I Like both To'omua and Cooper but having both in the game team is a luxury.
Rob Horne may sneak into 12 if they want to try lilo at 10 he would not have let thet try in through the centre and he can attack now he's lost a bit of that bulk he put on.
Beale and JOC (James O'Connor) may end up being super subs.
9Genia
10Cooper/Lilo
12Lilo/Horne
13AAC
11Speight
14Folau
15Mogg
res JOC (James O'Connor) ,Beale,Horne,White/Burgo
You have Lilo who is a pretty tidy ten at 12.
Foley is a v good 10 and 15.
JOC (James O'Connor) if started at 11 can cover 12 and 15.
I Like both To'omua and Cooper but having both in the game team is a luxury.
Rob Horne may sneak into 12 if they want to try lilo at 10 he would not have let thet try in through the centre and he can attack now he's lost a bit of that bulk he put on.
Beale and JOC (James O'Connor) may end up being super subs.
9Genia
10Cooper/Lilo
12Lilo/Horne
13AAC
11Speight
14Folau
15Mogg
res JOC (James O'Connor) ,Beale,Horne,White/Burgo
ACT Crusader
Jim Lenehan (48)
Given TPN, Pocock and Higginbotham were IMO dead certainties to make the 23, they will be back in the frame under the new coach.
That means S. Finger will be back on the fringe and one of the young opensides goneski, I would say Gill at this point.
Big question marks over what they do with with Mowen and Palu to accommodate Higginbotham, who before his injury would've been the first loose forward's name on the team sheet.
Palu has been around for a while and 3M's longevity seems very questionable. Kimlin will probably remain a fringe / tacklebag option. Dave Dennis good super player but would be low in the pecking order now that Mowen's stock would be on the rise in the eues of Deans and any new coach you'd think.
As an aside I was looking back at some old team lists for the Wallabies under Knuckles and early Deans days. There was one test that Knuckles selected all of Waugh, G. Smith and Hoiles, plus two other loosies. The glory days of Kinuckles 5/2 benches with Gits as backup halfback. Happy days aye
That means S. Finger will be back on the fringe and one of the young opensides goneski, I would say Gill at this point.
Big question marks over what they do with with Mowen and Palu to accommodate Higginbotham, who before his injury would've been the first loose forward's name on the team sheet.
Palu has been around for a while and 3M's longevity seems very questionable. Kimlin will probably remain a fringe / tacklebag option. Dave Dennis good super player but would be low in the pecking order now that Mowen's stock would be on the rise in the eues of Deans and any new coach you'd think.
As an aside I was looking back at some old team lists for the Wallabies under Knuckles and early Deans days. There was one test that Knuckles selected all of Waugh, G. Smith and Hoiles, plus two other loosies. The glory days of Kinuckles 5/2 benches with Gits as backup halfback. Happy days aye
ACT Crusader
Jim Lenehan (48)
Pfitzy
George Gregan (70)
Some fascinating comments on here. Reading some posters you'd nearly think you were on a rugby website...
But allow me to bring the truth in here. Some of you might want to sit down while I go through this
Loosehead prop - Ben Robinson
Backup (past the daylight) is Scott Sio, who is a good young prop and should stay for the experience.
Tighthead prop - Sekope Kepu
Backup - James Slipper
A wise man i.e. a prop once said the most important player in the team is the tighthead prop. The second most important is the backup tighthead prop. Kepu is the man right now. Queenslanders may say there are too many Tahs in the side, but they can suck a fat one when it comes to front row selections. Slipper has potential and I do wonder what he could be with a decent tight five around him.
Hooker - Steve Moore
Backup - TPN if fit, Hanson
It is an ongoing crime against rugby that Hanson wasn't selected to back up Moore. S Fainga'a simply doesn't have the accuracy or work ethic to play second fiddle, especially when his brother isn't out on the field with him. Chibba is the fucking man. Siliva is on the horizon - very good prospect.
Loosehead lock - Kane Douglas
Backup - Hugh Pyle
Both these blokes are immense at shifting bodies, while Pyle plays a little looser. But when he has to he crashes into contact far more effectively than the other options (yes, I mean Simmons). Douglas also has the lumber to push the tight head side.
Tighthead lock - James Horwill
Backup - Caderyn Neville
Big Kev picks himself, as captain and enforcer, though a read somewhere he might be more effective at the latter if Mowen was the former. Be that as it may, I also like the look of Neville - he's the tight man to Pyle's loose running, and has a solidity in contact that I really like.
Blindside flank - Ben Mowen
Backup - MMM
Mowen and Moore were fighting it out for player of the series once you ignore all the pointless crap the blouses do like score points off the back of the rugby players' hard work. Massive engine, tactical nous, and loves nothing more than getting in the opposition's face. MMM of course is a brute of a bastard and suits impact play in Test rugby - rip them to shreds once they're getting tired.
Openside flank - Liam Gill
Backup - Michael Hooper
I thought about this one a lot over the Test series, and think we need to go back to a dedicated on-baller. In the open Hooper probably has the edge for pace and ball running, though both are good in contact. But you get the feeling Gill just has that ability to keep his feet and sniff out a turnover a bit better.
Number 8 - Cliff Palu
Backup - Higginbotham once fit, Auelua otherwise
Pretty obvious choice while Higgers is injured. No-one else to pick from, though a mate of mine in the coaching ranks said that Deans called Fotu Auelua the day after Higgers was injured, but Fotu was also injured...
There is some sort of limit on posting, so let me get to the backs in a moment...
But allow me to bring the truth in here. Some of you might want to sit down while I go through this
Loosehead prop - Ben Robinson
Backup (past the daylight) is Scott Sio, who is a good young prop and should stay for the experience.
Tighthead prop - Sekope Kepu
Backup - James Slipper
A wise man i.e. a prop once said the most important player in the team is the tighthead prop. The second most important is the backup tighthead prop. Kepu is the man right now. Queenslanders may say there are too many Tahs in the side, but they can suck a fat one when it comes to front row selections. Slipper has potential and I do wonder what he could be with a decent tight five around him.
Hooker - Steve Moore
Backup - TPN if fit, Hanson
It is an ongoing crime against rugby that Hanson wasn't selected to back up Moore. S Fainga'a simply doesn't have the accuracy or work ethic to play second fiddle, especially when his brother isn't out on the field with him. Chibba is the fucking man. Siliva is on the horizon - very good prospect.
Loosehead lock - Kane Douglas
Backup - Hugh Pyle
Both these blokes are immense at shifting bodies, while Pyle plays a little looser. But when he has to he crashes into contact far more effectively than the other options (yes, I mean Simmons). Douglas also has the lumber to push the tight head side.
Tighthead lock - James Horwill
Backup - Caderyn Neville
Big Kev picks himself, as captain and enforcer, though a read somewhere he might be more effective at the latter if Mowen was the former. Be that as it may, I also like the look of Neville - he's the tight man to Pyle's loose running, and has a solidity in contact that I really like.
Blindside flank - Ben Mowen
Backup - MMM
Mowen and Moore were fighting it out for player of the series once you ignore all the pointless crap the blouses do like score points off the back of the rugby players' hard work. Massive engine, tactical nous, and loves nothing more than getting in the opposition's face. MMM of course is a brute of a bastard and suits impact play in Test rugby - rip them to shreds once they're getting tired.
Openside flank - Liam Gill
Backup - Michael Hooper
I thought about this one a lot over the Test series, and think we need to go back to a dedicated on-baller. In the open Hooper probably has the edge for pace and ball running, though both are good in contact. But you get the feeling Gill just has that ability to keep his feet and sniff out a turnover a bit better.
Number 8 - Cliff Palu
Backup - Higginbotham once fit, Auelua otherwise
Pretty obvious choice while Higgers is injured. No-one else to pick from, though a mate of mine in the coaching ranks said that Deans called Fotu Auelua the day after Higgers was injured, but Fotu was also injured...
There is some sort of limit on posting, so let me get to the backs in a moment...
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
Pfitzy, I think under the game plan Ewan will likely use making the best of the players at his disposal, a more classic Australian running game plan will be adopted. Based on that I'd have Hooper over Gill. Gill's superior pilfering is more of a strength if you are intending to kick the pill away and wait for errors.
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