3rd tier is back in 2014 [Discontinued]

[the coach]

The coach, I think you're overstating the tribal loyalties that club rugby has.

I say this mainly due to it's lack of progression and even slip from relevance over the years.

The reason News programs don't cover it at all and the papers give minimal coverage is because the vast majority of people don't seem give a shit. If enough people wanted to hear/read about it, there would be more coverage.

TWAS, I wasn't suggesting the tribes were large....I was just making the point that those who do follow club rugby (in Sydney anyway) are passionate about their club. IMO one of the problems the ARC had in attracting bums on seats was caused by the scattering of players from the same club side across multiple ARC teams. People who followed club rugby found it hard to identify with any passion to any particular team. This would probably have changed, of course, had the ARC lasted more than 1 year. As the NRC teams have to be self financing as far as ground hire, payments to players, admin, etc I think it would be financially more viable if SS supporters could see a clear relationship between their club and an NRC team. This will be easy if any of the stand-alone EOIs get up and also the joint ventures, but if some clubs get left out and their players are scattered it could be a problem for their supporters.

 

[the coach]

Bring back the rule where you couldn't kick out on the full from your 22 and have a lineout where it went out. Stop that, the game changes. Bring back rucking if hands are on the ball or someone is lying all over it. With the fitness levels now at an all time high, those two rule changes will make our game exactly what it should be......the number 1 winter sport world wide.

Belly I don't disagree with either of your suggested rule changes but I do believe it would be a mistake to apply either of these to the NRC in isolation. They would fundamentally change the game tactically and having such significant differences between the NRC and S15 / internationals is surely going to defeat the objective of developing players.

 

[Train Without a Station]

I understand what you are saying about the passion of club supporters. I guess I was sort of leading to the fact, that maybe the emotion needs to be taken out of it and say, if these clubs and supporters have lacked the support to maintain relevance for the sport, than why do we need to specifically be catering for them, providing there is confidence they can draw new support.

The factor that needs to be considered is beyond Parramatta, Penrith, SU alum, the suburb of North Sydney, Manly, Warringah, Gordon, Randwick/Coogee, Eastwood, and the suburbs that specifically make up Eastern Suburbs and Southern Districts, how many rugby followers are there out there? Is it possible that a certain number of teams only representing a small number of suburbs in Sydney actual alienates and misses out on a lot of fans?

I know people will say that these clubs represent district clubs but you are kidding yourself if you think too many people from any subbies club associated gives a fuck. I'm an avid rugby fan and am originally from the Gold Coast. I only played Subbies, however the subbies comp essentially fed into the Breakers. I certainly would not consider myself a Breakers fan, and in fact only saw one game in years of being a rugby supporter on the coast, and even then it was due to me going to watch my mate playing for the opposition.

It needs to be considered that holding on to the identity of the struggling Sydney Shute Shield clubs too strongly could also be doing more harm than good.

There is the possibility that after initially turning off some rusted on club supporters, that the ARC could have also brought in new supporters that liked their region being represented by a team. I'd say with the original ARC this was unlikely, but probably more so due to the fucked logic that had teams playing in stupid locations outside their region, than anything else.

 

[the coach]

Train, it would be interesting to see whether support for the NRC (ie the bums on seats at the games) comes from club supporters v S15 v Wallaby supporters as they aren't necessarily the same people. A lot of club supporters in Sydney don't attend S15 and Wallaby games (but watch on TV instead) and obviously there are probably even more people who attend S15 and Wallaby games without ever attending club games. I hope (but doubt) the ARU will make some attempt to find this out when and if the NRC gets off the ground so they understand their market more.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Yeah I'm with you. Hopefully they do the correct and adequate quantity of market research to determine what is going to be successful.

I'm certainly not trying to shit all over the club system. I just think it needs to be considered that potentially protecting the clubs as part of this may actually do more harm than good. Also, alienating them may be the more harmful alternative.

Whichever way it is, hopefully we don't have people banging on after the first season pushing their agenda, because it won't be seen in year 1 if the path they proceed down is the best option.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Bring back the rule where you couldn't kick out on the full from your 22 and have a lineout where it went out. Stop that, the game changes. Bring back rucking if hands are on the ball or someone is lying all over it. With the fitness levels now at an all time high, those two rule changes will make our game exactly what it should be......the number 1 winter sport world wide.

According to my old man the "australian dispensation" was similar: australia had a dispensation from the RFU - everywhere else in the world you could kick out on the full from anywhere and it was a lineout where it crossed the touch line but here you could only kick out on the fullfrom inside your own 25. Eventually the world came round to our way of thinking.
I agree with you on both counts - although the AB's always seemed better at rucking us than we were at rucking them.

 

[Quick Hands]

I know people will say that these clubs represent district clubs but you are kidding yourself if you think too many people from any subbies club associated gives a fuck. I'm an avid rugby fan and am originally from the Gold Coast. I only played Subbies, however the subbies comp essentially fed into the Breakers. I certainly would not consider myself a Breakers fan, and in fact only saw one game in years of being a rugby supporter on the coast, and even then it was due to me going to watch my mate playing for the opposition.

I'd say that this would vary enourmously from place to place. A major factor would be how many of the subbies players had been through the junior system of the relevent district club. Perhaps the Breakers didn't have that link. I can only speak for the northern beaches areas and I'd say that most if not all of the subbies players on the peninsula would identify with either Manly or Warringah, as most of them would have come though the junior system and many of the subbies clubs here are also extensions of junior clubs. I'm not saying this applies everywhere, but it does here.

You are right in saying that we need to attract people who aren't supporters of district clubs, but we don't want to unecessarily alienate those few grass roots rugby people that we have.

It's a balancing act. The ARU got it hopelessly wrong with the ARC and wasted money and goodwill on a flawed format. This time they seem to be going about things differently, but time will tell. We'll certainly know more when the successful 8/9/10 teams are announced after the 28 Feb. They've given themselves a fairly short time frame to get the thing set up, I just hope it's thought through logically with an eye to the future and the present.

 

[lily]

I'm amazed that the announcement isn't for the 29th of February.

 

[Train Without a Station]

I'd say that this would vary enourmously from place to place. A major factor would be how many of the subbies players had been through the junior system of the relevent district club. Perhaps the Breakers didn't have that link. I can only speak for the northern beaches areas and I'd say that most if not all of the subbies players on the peninsula would identify with either Manly or Warringah, as most of them would have come though the junior system and many of the subbies clubs here are also extensions of junior clubs. I'm not saying this applies everywhere, but it does here.

But how many of these people actually attend games, or any type of support which actually would sustain a club, other than maybe check the scores in the paper on a Monday?

As you said every area is different, but I thought the Breakers/Gold Coast is a good one to look at as it probably offers the greatest identification with the Premier team. For around 5 years, Breakers had only a Premier Grade and Colts, meaning all players either played subbies, or Breakers and Breakers was essentially somewhat of a rep team for the region. Even prior to that and currently I believe they only have 2 grades. My thought is that would offer greater identification, than a subbies club under the umbrella of a Shute Shield club that has 7+ grades.

Yes every area is different, but I'm just saying if in one region, 8 feeders clubs don't really care about the club they actually feed to, I'd be cautious as to how much real support from district clubs a Shute Shield or Hospitals Cup club will get.

Certainly not advocating throwing the baby out with the bathwater, just saying in the pursuit of ultimate success, do not necessarily bow down to the minority which has not been enough for the code to prosper on.

 

[Kenny Powers]

Certainly not advocating throwing the baby out with the bathwater, just saying in the pursuit of ultimate success, do not necessarily bow down to the minority which has not been enough for the code to prosper on.

Good point, if your plan is not to bring in more supporters what's the point. Just let the existing competitions continue as is.

What will make or break the competition is not bums on seats which are necessary but not enough for survival, it's TV exposure both free to air and Foxtel.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Yes, developing into a product worthy of a decent broadcast deal will be the sole most important factor.

 

[boyo]

I'm amazed that the announcement isn't for the 29th of February.

Or the 1st of April.

 

[Quick Hands]

But how many of these people actually attend games, or any type of support which actually would sustain a club, other than maybe check the scores in the paper on a Monday?

Manly get 3,000 - 5,000 people at home games to watch grade. Colts are played at the opposite venue and it's pretty much family and friends. Warringah crowds aren't quite as big, but they'd get over 1,000 to their matches - bigger for some games.

EDIT: In Sydney, subbies clubs play at the same time as grade so there are more potential supporters out there who would support a 3T club in the area/region.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Well if that's the case, Manly's current support needs to be well preserved. Maintaining 5k crowds to begin with would be optimistic for most potential 3T teams.

 

[Dave Beat]

Well if that's the case, Manly's current support needs to be well preserved. Maintaining 5k crowds to begin with would be optimistic for most potential 3T teams.

They do the right things to build that support and will maintain that focus. No doubt it will flow through to the Nth Hbr team.

 

[Stands]

I was having a beer in the city last night with a few mates and I've gotta say there are strong rumours that Sydney Uni and Balmain Rugby Club are submitting a joint bid for inclusion, and that as a result Randwick, Easts and the University of NSW are in discussions about setting up an East Sydney team. These moves seem to be in line with RUPA CEO Greg Harris’s model last year of a Third Tier based around universities.

 

[Bruce Ross]

I was having a beer in the city last night with a few mates and I've gotta say there are strong rumours that Sydney Uni and Balmain Rugby Club are submitting a joint bid for inclusion, and that as a result Randwick, Easts and the University of NSW are in discussions about setting up an East Sydney team. These moves seem to be in line with RUPA CEO Greg Harris’s model last year of a Third Tier based around universities.

Very interesting developments if true, Stands. Uni Rugby have been keeping their cards pretty close to the chest but I think most people would have assumed that they would hold out for inclusion as a standalone. A tie-in with Balmain makes a lot of sense both geographically and historically. Uni (1863) and Balmain (1873) both took part in the very first Sydney club competition. Glebe (1889) won 7 Sydney premierships prior to World War I. Balmain and Glebe united in 1931 to form Drummoyne District Rugby Club. If a joint Uni-Balmain bid is successful then each of these areas, Balmain, Drummoyne and Glebe would have very easy access to Leichhardt Oval which would seem to be a logical home ground, at least until the redevelopment of a rectangular field at Uni.

To the east, Randwick (1882) and Easts (1900) are also part of rugby's Sydney heartland. Their suggested joint venture would offer Uni of NSW (1949) an opportunity to get back into serious rugby competition. After a lot of success in Second Division UNSW entered the Premier competition in 1966 and remained there until the 'Eighties.

As you suggest, Stands, these two joint ventures seem to be broadly in line with the thinking of Greg Harris, who last year put together a detailed model of a Third Tier competition involving universities linking with established clubs around Australia. I seem to recall among Bill Pulver's thought bubbles the occasional semi-supportive statement about a university based competition. If the ARU is at all keen on this approach it is not hard to envision linkages between virtually all of the participants suggested here and elsewhere around Australia with universities.
.

 

[p.Tah]

Does this mean that NRC level players will not play in the SS but in Subbies (UNSW and Balmain)?

 

[Train Without a Station]

Does this mean that NRC level players will not play in the SS but in Subbies (UNSW and Balmain)?

Why on earth would that be so? Weaken SS, weaken the development of NRC players to benefit the odd subbies team?

 

[Quick Hands]

Very interesting developments if true, Stands. Uni Rugby have been keeping their cards pretty close to the chest but I think most people would have assumed that they would hold out for inclusion as a standalone. A tie-in with Balmain makes a lot of sense both geographically and historically. Uni (1863) and Balmain (1873) both took part in the very first Sydney club competition. Glebe (1889) won 7 Sydney premierships prior to World War I. Balmain and Glebe united in 1931 to form Drummoyne District Rugby Club. If a joint Uni-Balmain bid is successful then each of these areas, Balmain, Drummoyne and Glebe would have very easy access to Leichhardt Oval which would seem to be a logical home ground, at least until the redevelopment of a rectangular field at Uni.

.

Although I think the Balmain RFC in existence today is different from the 1873 version and is separate from Drummoyne.