Continued decline in Sydney Junior Rugby

[Quick Hands]

I'm fairly certain that those clubs still exist OB, but how many teams they run, I'm not so sure. I suspect not as many as when you played in the 90s.

Your last paragraph is a scenario which plays itself out on a regular basis across the juniors. The players getting flogged 100-0 by the super team give it away and then when they get to 16 the private school super team stop playing juniors to concentrate on school rugby. The result being that there's hardly anyone left playing junior club rugby and competitions have started to become unviable. This means that boys at non-rugby playing schools can either: play league, play colts against 20 year olds or play something else with their mates.

The rot started in about 2000 when Northern Zone introduced Sunday rugby to allow private school players to remain in junior rugby, while still playing school rugby. The motive was well-meaning, but long-term it's been a disaster for Sydney junior rugby at club level.

 

[I like to watch]

It allowed many kids in the younger age groups (U10's) to give Rugby a go,whilst still playing League or whatever.
I know heaps of kids who came to the game through this innovation.

 

[Gary Owen III]

I'm fairly certain that those clubs still exist OB, but how many teams they run, I'm not so sure. I suspect not as many as when you played in the 90s.

Your last paragraph is a scenario which plays itself out on a regular basis across the juniors. The players getting flogged 100-0 by the super team give it away and then when they get to 16 the private school super team stop playing juniors to concentrate on school rugby. The result being that there's hardly anyone left playing junior club rugby and competitions have started to become unviable. This means that boys at non-rugby playing schools can either: play league, play colts against 20 year olds or play something else with their mates.

The rot started in about 2000 when Northern Zone introduced Sunday rugby to allow private school players to remain in junior rugby, while still playing school rugby. The motive was well-meaning, but long-term it's been a disaster for Sydney junior rugby at club level.

Back when we had the 3 zones, there was still the problem of the 100-0 floggings. But this was made more apparent by the comps not being graded (MWZ and MSZ - can't speak for MNZ).

A good deal of our issues with Sat rugby have come about because the fringe teams around the borders of the MNZ comp got sick of the mismatches and moved to Sun (MNZ) to join a graded comp and play teams of similar nature. Maybe if we could have graded the Sat comp we might not have lost as many?

The super-team issue was (and is) a problem in both scenarios. That is a separate issue.

I think the horse has well and truly bolted on the idea of resurrecting a Sat comp in its old form. But the idea of moving the Opens (U18's) to a District level on a Sat (as a 3rd or 4th grade colts) has some merit - use this as the test case and see how it flies before we delve deeper into the age groups.

I understand that the powers running rugby do not want to be the "ones in charge at the time" if rugby was to lose a large number of players en-mass, should the move not be a success. But as stated the private school boys are not a big number in this age group and the move to Sat might not see us lose many (if any) - in fact with the number of age eligible players already in colts it might swell numbers.

 

[S'UP]

ah . from the home of God squads and dog squads .. Eastwood.

It seems to me the Junior gold program, that has now become the national championships that you so malign,

It isn't the junior the JGC I have a problem with I'm all for that for all the reason you quote and a few more. I do have a problem with the National Gold Squad, NGS not to be mistaken with JGC, JGS or any other JG.
The NGS has delivered rugby James O'Connor, he is the best example of someone who is all about themselves and couldn't careless about Rugby.

 

[Brainstrust]

ah . from the home of God squads and dog squads .. Eastwood.

It seems to me the Junior gold program, that has now become the national championships that you so malign, provides a reat oportunity for club players to access training, encouragement, game intensity and competition and an opportunity to network that might not have been otherwise available to them. Provides a significant alternative to opportunities provided by other codes.

cutting the advertising budget and loyalty programmes doesn't seem to be the way most businesses expand into a market . though my economic or commerce credentials may not stand the warmth of the sun.
It strikes me this programme is less the domain of silver-tails than programmes that came before but is supported by a handful of schools that play rugby as a primary sport.

it would be interesting to weigh the commitment to these regional/zone teams against commitment to the club teams that have stood out in the state championships leading into these comps..

I am a bit of a fan of the conversation hour with Richard from the Doug Anthony all-stars , he recently interviewed a qantas Pilot that managed to avoid a catastrophe, copying a technique also used to save an Apollo mission .. he gave up working out what didn't work and started using what did

The JGS melting pot works ..for the next generation of players. it begins to build the strong network and community that is a strength of Rugby. It dilutes the public school image that discourages those outside the nursery districts and makes the game accessible to the great unwashed

from these teams I do not expect to see a "roll out self absorbed kids that want piles of money because they deserve it" and even at this level i would be surprised to see more than 1 in 10 play first grade for their senior club. What I would hope to see is a group of players that have developed a love of the game that will be disciples in the future contributing to a mass critical to the games survival in this country

Excellent response. I know one if the gold cup selectors and the desire to have not necessarily just private school boys was strong. The ARU have created the gold cup for a lot of reasons. They recognise a real need to develop players early and are investing in it. The age groups of 15 and 17 gives boys a genuine choice between loig Harold mats and rugby gold cup as a development pathway. And re an earlier comment on private school boys getting the mystical 2 bites of the cherry in the 16's, every boy that attends school which should be all of them can trial through their school association. The NSW schools tournament has sides from CHS, GPS, CAS , ISA, AICES ? Etc.. It is a crap argument that the same opportunity is being denied. The realty is that when the private school boys stop playing club, fir whatever reason, the club comp battles. I fir one I applaud the ARU for having the vision to get boys playing rugby at an elite level via the gold cup, even if they aren't in club. I know that there were boys picked who had little rugby exposure. Surely for the good of the game, that's what we are trying to achieve isn't it. .

 

[Quick Hands]

It allowed many kids in the younger age groups (U10's) to give Rugby a go, whilst still playing League or whatever.
I know heaps of kids who came to the game through this innovation.

I accept what you say, but, overall playing numbers are down and also league switches to Sundays in 14s - which means the kids have to choose.

And re an earlier comment on private school boys getting the mystical 2 bites of the cherry

If you're referring to my comment about 2 bites at the cherry, it had nothing whatsoever to do with JGC. I was talking about SJRU structuring competitions so that private school players can play 2 games of rugby every week-end (school Saturday and club Sunday). Nothing mystical about that, it's a fact.

The reason that the club competition would struggle because it is now based on the premise that it can't survive without school players doubling up. Change that premise and have a self-sufficient competition, where it's the first preference competition for boys and it wouldn't struggle.

If the current model of junior club rugby was expanding or strong and viable, you'd keep doing what we're doing. But as it's shrinking before our eyes, something new needs to be looked at.

 

[Fat Cat]

check out the 'national tournaments 2014' thread, some interesting stuff in there !

 

[Quick Hands]

Some good stuff there.

I still don't get the idea that we should be structuring junior club competitions with the specific purpose of allowing private school boys to play. Good to see that I'm not alone in this. This is nothing against private school players. It's just that I think that they are already very well catered for in terms of games, training and facilities.

And the concept isn't working, if the concept is to get more boys playing rugby - we're just putting on 2 games a week for the same boys. Some of these club teams that I know of are exclusively made up of GPS/CAS players. What's the point?

 

[Kenny Powers]

Not sure if this has been posted already, but there is not going to be much support from the ARU for the juniors.

Also looks like a bit of tension at ARU HQ over the NRC, thats for shore.



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-11/bill-pulver-nick-farr-jones-greg-harris-on-the/5252242


To quote one of the greatest modern day philosophers

"Bill Pulver must be sweating like a gypsy with a mortgage"

 

[Fat Cat]

just call me nostrodamis (excuse my poor spelling !)

 

[I like to watch]

It allowed many kids in the younger age groups (U10's) to give Rugby a go, whilst still playing League or whatever.
I know heaps of kids who came to the game through this innovation.

I accept what you say, but, overall playing numbers are down and also league switches to Sundays in 14s - which means the kids have to choose.

And re an earlier comment on private school boys getting the mystical 2 bites of the cherry

If you're referring to my comment about 2 bites at the cherry, it had nothing whatsoever to do with JGC. I was talking about SJRU structuring competitions so that private school players can play 2 games of rugby every week-end (school Saturday and club Sunday). Nothing mystical about that, it's a fact.

The reason that the club competition would struggle because it is now based on the premise that it can't survive without school players doubling up. Change that premise and have a self-sufficient competition, where it's the first preference competition for boys and it wouldn't struggle.

If the current model of junior club rugby was expanding or strong and viable, you'd keep doing what we're doing. But as it's shrinking before our eyes, something new needs to be looked at.

I agree with the thrust of your argument from U14's and beyond.Kids pay Rugby on Saturdays period.
However, I recall not that long ago,MNZ had core & non core comps.
i.e. Saturday comps & a fri night/Sunday comp,predominantly for the 10-14 age groups.
That seemed to be a win win scenario to me.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

One challenge that Sydney Juniors faces with Saturday Games is the unavailability of volunteers - Coaches, managers, administrators, committee folk and general volunteers. While it is a generalisation, many of the aforementioned Village Club volunteers that are essential to keep the Village Clubs going can not commit to Saturday club footy due to their kids Saturday sports commitments. Often these are the most motivated of the village club volunteers, and their unavailability leaves big holes at Village Club level.

The challenge facing Saturday rugby is not just to recruit CHS, CCC and AICES boys in the Under 13's onwards, but to have a group of team and club volunteers recruited from U11's onwards that can keep teams and clubs going.

Lastly if we are going to try to re-invigorate Saturday Club Rugby, and we manage to cover the loss of volunteers to the School rugby spectating, do we have enough referees to cover all Saturday School Rugby games, AND Saturday club games.

 

[Quick Hands]

I agree with the thrust of your argument from U14's and beyond.Kids pay Rugby on Saturdays period.
However, I recall not that long ago,MNZ had core & non core comps.
i.e. Saturday comps & a fri night/Sunday comp,predominantly for the 10-14 age groups.
That seemed to be a win win scenario to me.

The core/non-core idea seems to have gone and Sunday is now the default position as I don't think there have been Saturday competitions for a few years. I think that SJRU realise that it's gone too far and that's why they are determined to have Saturday rugby this year.

The horse may well have bolted, but I wish them luck in trying. It's going to be a long hard slog but I'm fairly certain that the players are out there. The mindset that teams can only exist if we keep private school players has to change though.

 

[Man on the hill]

Lastly if we are going to try to re-invigorate Saturday Club Rugby, and we manage to cover the loss of volunteers to the School rugby spectating, do we have enough referees to cover all Saturday School Rugby games, AND Saturday club games.

The schools for the most part are close to self sufficient - combination of teachers, students, old boys and parents. As to club land...same bucket as all other volunteers.

 

[Man on the hill]

I don't think there have been Saturday competitions for a few years

Not quite accurate - when the comp went Sydney wide (as a Sunday based comp) the majority of teams transferred into the graded Sunday comp rather than hang around in the locality based Saturday comp. Friday Night & Saturday rugby is alive (sort of) in the west & south, but peters out after U12s.

 

[Jaghond]

There have been quite a few points mentioned above re Saturday / Sunday rugby issues..........some of which I accept & some of which I don't - having been through the whole period as one of the "club volunteers" mentioned by HJ..........and I have the BBQ hands to substantiiate same !

Two points often overlooked - unless you have been at the "pointy end" of the administration tree - is that there are less available grounds on Saturdays ( due to Subbies, other codes etc) & also less available referees....both of which I would suggest are rather important to facilitating a game of rugby - at any age level !

I would suggest that part of the reason for the introduction of "Friday night rugby" in the old MNZ comp - whether you love it or hate it - was to access both referees & grounds. It certainly wasn't the only reason IIRC - but it was certainly a part of it.

And for those arguing the "why give private school kids a second bite of the cherry with cllub rugby on Friday / Sunday", doesn't that POV also apply to giving kids from other codes "a second opportunity" to play a sport on the weekend. People seem happy to accept that it is ok to offer boys who want to have a crack at as much sport as they can access a go, however, I would suggest that, anecdotally at least, this really only works in the 10's to maybe 14's - as after that the physicallity of the game is such that it starts to create "problems" - not to mention the intriduction of Rep stuff...and having young boys turn into teeenagers !

Some thoughts anyway.....

Cheers
The Hound

 

[Fat Cat]

One challenge that Sydney Juniors faces with Saturday Games is the unavailability of volunteers - Coaches, managers, administrators, committee folk and general volunteers. While it is a generalisation, many of the aforementioned Village Club volunteers that are essential to keep the Village Clubs going can not commit to Saturday club footy due to their kids Saturday sports commitments. Often these are the most motivated of the village club volunteers, and their unavailability leaves big holes at Village Club level.
AICES boys in the Under 13's onwards, but to have a group of team and club volunteers recruited from U11's onwards that can keep teams and clubs going.

The challenge facing Saturday rugby is not just to recruit CHS, CCC and
Lastly if we are going to try to re-invigorate Saturday Club Rugby, and we manage to cover the loss of volunteers to the School rugby spectating, do we have enough referees to cover all Saturday School Rugby games, AND Saturday club games.

My previous experience is that the majority of volunteers come from parents of the teams playing, touchies, canteen, ground marshals, pack up and set up, coaches,even refs. Every club is now encouraged to provide refs otherwise they cop it in the hip pocket. As far as ground availability is concerned they are generally empty unless there's minis on them. And we are just talking about the older age groups aren't we ?

 

[S'UP]

Wouldn't all the school v's club arguement go away if parents didn't let the school dictate to them what their kids can do outside of school hours?
If you are on a solarship fair enough the school can tell you what to do, but as we all know solarship don't happen for sport. So all parents please tell the school that little or big Johnny will be playing rugby on sundays if he wants to. What can they do kick you out of the school? maybe but not if everyone takes the same approach. I haven't come across a boy that didn't want to play another game of Rugby, I have come across some who don't want to train everyday of the week but you can accommodate that.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Wouldn't all the school v's club arguement go away if parents didn't let the school dictate to them what their kids can do outside of school hours?
If you are on a solarship fair enough the school can tell you what to do, but as we all know solarship don't happen for sport. So all parents please tell the school that little or big Johnny will be playing rugby on sundays if he wants to. What can they do kick you out of the school? maybe but not if everyone takes the same approach. I haven't come across a boy that didn't want to play another game of Rugby, I have come across some who don't want to train everyday of the week but you can accommodate that.

Its not quite that simple.
If the kid who wants to play club is not just leant on by the coach but feels that he owes his school team mates the loyalty of not risking injury etc. And if the majority of the kids in the school team agree not to play and to concentrate on the school game its not a particularly good look for the kid to thumb his nose at those team mates in favour of another team.
Its not about the kid fearing punishment its about the mutual sacrifice made for the school team - and he sees those kids 5 or 6 day per week.

 

[S'UP]

Its not quite that simple.
If the kid who wants to play club is not just leant on by the coach but feels that he owes his school team mates the loyalty of not risking injury etc. And if the majority of the kids in the school team agree not to play and to concentrate on the school game its not a particularly good look for the kid to thumb his nose at those team mates in favour of another team.
Its not about the kid fearing punishment its about the mutual sacrifice made for the school team - and he sees those kids 5 or 6 day per week.

I hope none of them ever fall off their motorbike or skateboard on the weekend the world could end.