Wallabies v. Springboks, 18th July 2015, Suncorp, Brisbane

[Groucho]

I have to confess I'm a bit the same Groucho. It worked well enough last night with Hooper and Pocock that we should keep doing it. With that said, we can't have Skelton on the paddock at the same time if that's the case. I also worry about playing England with that size pack, but are they any bigger and meaner than the Boks?

Brown_Hornet, my great fear playing England is being hammered in the breakdown. Playing Pocock is the biggest thing we can do to negate that. Playing Pocock also potentially increases Hooper's effectiveness in that area by providing two threats.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Just watched the game again.

Don't get the Skelton hate at all. He had one ineffective carry in about seven. He didn't make any mistakes. Made his tackles. Gave away one offside penalty. But wasn't a liability at all IMO.

.

@Barbarian. Even the AB supporters on this thread are almost unanimously calling for Skelton to be played for the whole 80 minutes against the ABs later in the RC. Tells a story, I think.

Big Will certainly didn't have a shocker but he didn't contribute any where near as much as his size and I assume the game plan deserved. The Wallabies' pack looked a whole lot better (ie combative) in the second half after Pocock came on, but nearly everyone agrees that Horwill also contributed more than Will had beforehand.

 

[Beefcake]

I don't know what game you watched last night Beefcake, but your observations on Genia and Phipps are in complete opposition to what actually happened....

Phipps and To'omua were the two key improvements to our backline last night.

Im a fan of both, thought Genia and Phipps played well and echo sentiments that the bench brought home the game, both forwards & backs. Lets not lose sight of their impact.

Amazing what happens when the bench is used tactically not sparingly.

 

[Groucho]

Im a fan of both, thought Genia and Phipps played well and echo sentiments that the bench brought home the game, both forwards & backs. Lets not lose sight of their impact.

Amazing what happens when the bench is used tactically not sparingly.

And when we have a bench full of threats.

 

[Brumby Runner]

BUT Skelton's work on our attacking rucks was inaccurate.

Its hard to judge the individual impact of people at scrum time, particularly when Meyer seemed so intent on getting his starting (dominant) scrum off the park so quickly, but you'd have to say at this point:

(Holmes + Horwill) > (Kepu + Skelton)

It seemed to me that the Wallaby scrum was weak mainly on one side. It rotated on most occasions until the two props were replaced. My recollection is that at least early on it was the LH side backpeddling while the TH side held its ground or moved forward. And I noticed also that DSimmons was packing behind Slipper. In my opinion, the issue was probably that Slipper was having ankle problems. Had treatment on the ground a couple of times. How a prop with any leg problems can be expected to hold the scrum, I have no idea. Should have been replaced much earlier in the game.

What I liked after Sio and Holmes took over was that the scrum pushed forwards on both sides. Very little or no rotation. That was excellent to see.

 

[kiap]

Brown_Hornet, my great fear playing England is being hammered in the breakdown. Playing Pocock is the biggest thing we can do to negate that. Playing Pocock also potentially increases Hooper's effectiveness in that area by providing two threats.

So you've dropped Palu like yesterday's lunch. That was quick. Good to see that sort of expediency from our armchair selectors.

I also worry about playing England with that size pack, but are they any bigger and meaner than the Boks?

England and the Boks (the first XV, not the dirt-trackers we played last night) have big V8s in Vermeulen and Vunipola at 120kg. Pocock should be starting, but not at number 8.

 

[Brumby Runner]

The biggest coaching issue I have is the defensive shuffling. Let Quade fucking defend at 10. He's capable. Let 12 defend at 12. Let the wingers stay on the wing.

I wholeheartedly agree @TWAS. Time to stop having to hide players in defense because their tackling capability is not up to scratch.

But otherwise, I think Cheika is so far getting out of some issues scot free. What coach has a game plan to ignore the breakdown and to play out of form players in the crucial 9, 10 and 12 area? And then to have the bench come on to retrieve a game when the score is 15 points in deficit with about 20 minutes to go? He made a few bad calls in his selections this game, and I have to say most of them were obvious before the game even started. The one I didn't pick was the relatively poor performance by Will Skelton. After his standout Super season I had visions of him being the point of difference between the Wallabies and at least the NH sides we are due to meet in the RWC. Sadly, he didn't realise those expectations last night.

 

[Groucho]

So you've dropped Palu like yesterday's lunch. That was quick. Good to see that sort expediency from our armchair selectors.


England and the Boks (the first XV, not the dirt-trackers we played last night) have big V8s in Vermeulen and Vunipola at 120kg. Pocock should be starting, but not at number 8.

Invoking expediency in the context of selections is like invoking fairness, kiap. Pocock is my pick as the best eight. I've never been able to work up much guilt over dropping players from my armchair team.

 

[Froggy]

I have to go with BR on the scrum.
While I was disappointed in Skelton generally, it was the LH (Slipper/Simmons) side of the scrum that was continually going backwards. It seems that once some people have decided big Will can't scrummage, any deficiency in the scrum must be his fault.
For mine, the difference was a) Sio replacing Slipper and b) Du Plessis going off.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Brown_Hornet, my great fear playing England is being hammered in the breakdown. Playing Pocock is the biggest thing we can do to negate that. Playing Pocock also potentially increases Hooper's effectiveness in that area by providing two threats.

Yes and no. With a smaller back row we'd be vulnerable to the kind of blunt force trauma that the Poms love dishing out at the breakdown. They don't really play a conventional fetcher, but flood the ruck area with big bodies. If we can't clear the ball quickly from that situation it creates an advantage wider of the ruck. The key will be not having to fish the pill out of a pile of white jerseys.

 

[ChargerWA]

While Skelton didn't have a great game, it's a bit early to chuck him on the scrap heap. He needs to come off the bench for the next few games and find his way to make an impact.

I'd be disappointed if he disappeared from the 23.

 

[kiap]

Invoking expediency in the context of selections is like invoking fairness, kiap. Pocock is my pick as the best eight. I've never been able to work up much guilt over dropping players from my armchair team.

Fair enough.

For mine, I don't think Pocock is an 8. He's had what – 30 minutes? And played his normal breakdown and fetching flanker's game.

I might drop Palu from my armchair side as well. But not for Hoop-cock.

 

[Beefcake]

And when we have a bench full of threats.

Absolutely, underlines the efforts of the 23 rather than the 15 everyone is obsessed about.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

What coach has a game plan to ignore the breakdown and to play out of form players in the crucial 9, 10 and 12 area?

Giteau is not out of form - he has been in rare form in the comp he plays in. The issue is: is form in that comp relevant? Last night showed probably not.
The 9 issue is compounded by the lack of credible backup to Phipps - Genia is not convincing but White has game management and ref issues. I think Cheika has very limited options at 9.
As for QC (Quade Cooper) - that was his 5th(?) game in 2 years. What is the alternative: Lilo - obviously he's on the nose: haven't see enough to know if thats justifiable; Tomua - we need him at 12: who plays there if he doesn't?
In retrospect I think Cheika was trying answer about 6 questions with 3 selections: I think he answered 4 of them: Genia/White; Cooper/Tomua; Gits/Tomua; Gits/Cooper - not sure what the answer is on the last one.

 

[Shelts89]

England and the Boks (the first XV, not the dirt-trackers we played last night) have big V8s in Vermeulen and Vunipola at 120kg. Pocock should be starting, but not at number 8.​

​

I'd take Ben Morgan over Billy V. Only 116kg, but quicker and much fitter. ​

​

Yes and no. With a smaller back row we'd be vulnerable to the kind of blunt force trauma that the Poms love dishing out at the breakdown. They don't really play a conventional fetcher, but flood the ruck area with big bodies. If we can't clear the ball quickly from that situation it creates an advantage wider of the ruck. The key will be not having to fish the pill out of a pile of white jerseys.

Robshaw and T Youngs aren't bad at jackelling, but yeah we do tend to get most of our breakdown work done by absolutely smashing into a ruck we think we can turn over. Wales (and Ireland but I don't know how likely you are to meet them) on the other hand can be very savvy at the breakdown.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

A lot of the debate is on players but really is about best combinations

Agree Cooper and giteau as combination did not work..

Giteau and To'omua did but would a Cooper and To'omua work better with giteau as bench option - need to continue to test combinations as not sure got the answers other than Cooper and giteau as combination did not appear to work

Other combination like to see is play hooper and pocock in starting 15 which means dropping Skelton from starting 15 for horwill and leaving fardy on the bench

Holmes and sio also pushing to be starting props

 

[kiap]

I'd take Ben Morgan over Billy V. Only 116kg, but quicker and much fitter.

That would've ruined my "V8's" quip.

Unless we're talking a Morgan Plus 8 at a beefy 1220kg.

 

[fatprop]

Brown_Hornet, my great fear playing England is being hammered in the breakdown. Playing Pocock is the biggest thing we can do to negate that. Playing Pocock also potentially increases Hooper's effectiveness in that area by providing two threats.

I don't see Pocock or Hooper solving our breakdown issues, that is a team issue that will only be solved by accurate, aggressive cleanouts on attack and dominant tackling on defence

Typos by SwiftKey, errors in tone by me

 

[Rugbynutter39]

You keep your best players in the starting 15

we have two world class 13's so play AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) on wing and richer for it

We need to have hooper and pocock in starting 15 as both offer too much to leave on the bench

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

​

Robshaw and T Youngs aren't bad at jackelling, but yeah we do tend to get most of our breakdown work done by absolutely smashing into a ruck we think we can turn over. Wales (and Ireland but I don't know how likely you are to meet them) on the other hand can be very savvy at the breakdown.

Dead right about Wales. Their threat at the breakdown is entirely different and more like ours is with Pocock. We'd have slightly different plans for both teams I would think.

I don't think against England that we've got any choice but to take them on through the middle and get them to commit numbers at the tackle and get some quick ball going round the corner. We need to try and get their big bodies walking backwards for a few phases before we can shift the ball to a wider channel. If we go with one-out runners or stationary pods we'll get turned over time and time again. The key will be getting the pill out in front of our runners and have them going straight as an arrow and sucking guys in. A few offloads in contact help that cause too, so close support play of the ball carrier will be key. This is an area that Hooper excels in.