Wallaby 31 players for 2015 RWC

[The_Brown_Hornet]

We don't have a magical goal kicker waiting in the wings to take us to RWC glory, so we'll have to make do with what we have. That said, we should be getting a kicking coach out on the training paddock to work with these guys.

 

[qwerty51]

And unfortunately.. JOC (James O'Connor) has the most potential IMO. He looks like he could kick 50+ too.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I wouldn't discount the possibility of JOC (James O'Connor) making it back. Cheika specifically put a plan in place for him. I wouldn't be surprised to see him make an appearance in one of the two Bleds.

 

[qwerty51]

Not in the starting side anyway.

 

[Lindommer]

Cheika advised JOC (James O'Connor) to work on his speed and footwork over these few weeks. I suspect TGC also wanted James to have a good rest from any physical contact for that period to see if his nagging niggles might heal. There's a very good chance O'Connor will be on the plane to the Old Dart come September, as will Palu.

 

[Groucho]

Did a quick count and the All Blacks only kicked at 67% in the last world cup - Slade and Carter both around 62%. Weeepu stood up a bit more at 76%, and Donald obviously went OK with his one attempt.

So if you're good enough, goal kicking doesn't matter too much.

We're probably not good enough though..

In one sense it's about being good enough, but more accurately it's about the number of games that are (A) decided by missed kicks and (B) could be decided differently by different percentatges of missed kicks, e.g. by a 60% kicker vs. a 90% kicker. Being good enough gets you in and out of the range.

It's a useful calculation and I'll put my hand up to analyze the last RWC that way.

My statistician's instinct is that while A is commonplace, there'll be a relatively small number of games in B. However (as we all know) it only takes one game to knock you out of a knockout competition.

 

[Groucho]

I agree. It was a strange decision for Chieka to put Cooper on the bench. It should have been Lilo - he was flown to Argentina after all. Plus a Foley/Lilo combo would have been interesting.

If To'omua goes down Lilo is the next best thing, he is becoming quite dominate into contact also, often putting on big hits.

Cooper was probably on the bench, and cerainly got onto the field, so Chieka could see more of him.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

In one sense it's about being good enough, but more accurately it's about the number of games that are (A) decided by missed kicks and (B) could be decided differently by different percentatges of missed kicks, e.g. by a 60% kicker vs. a 90% kicker. Being good enough gets you in and out of the range.

It's a useful calculation and I'll put my hand up to analyze the last RWC that way.

My statistician's instinct is that while A is commonplace, there'll be a relatively small number of games in B. However (as we all know) it only takes one game to knock you out of a knockout competition.

An interesting question (to which I don't have the answer). For me the big one is: are we likely to chuck a game away by missing easy kicks in front? I can count a few we've had over the last couple of years where the answer is absolutely yes. If nothing else, we've got to make sure we've got that covered. I hate seeing points thrown away, especially in test footy where the margins are so tight.

 

[RedsHappy]

As Redshappy has been saying for the last ?? how many years ?? where is the kicking coach to facilitate this. I can't think of a full time kicking coach since Ben Perkins. Considering it is such a key area of the game, as essential as the scrum and lineout which receive specialist coaching, WTF hasn't this been addressed. The ARU and the alleged HPU really are incompetent fools. It is too late to address it now, with weeks to go before the RWC. It was there to see in the loss of the Lions series, apart from the Deans factor, and it has been a factor in many other test losses.

I agree with Cyclo that it matters little who is kicking, even those no even considered in the squad such as Harris, because none of them are kicking any better.

I don't subscribe to the just giving up view, but just as with Deans a cogent argument can be made that the preparation for the RWC has not been approached with complete rigour to all the necessary skills. Many will blame Chieka, and he does indeed have a significant role in the failure, but as with the scrum and set piece, the ARU HPU has done SFA (I like acronyms ) to address the core skills of Australian players over a significant length of time. WTF do they actually do in the way of player performance?

1. Haha! I've been saying that the Wallabies need a top-notch kicking coach and full-time for the entirety of their season, since 2010. Parallels my long-standing conviction that the completeness and capability of an adequately staffed elite coaching group is as important a variable in elite rugby success as are the players, or the specific selection of players per se. That conviction has only strengthened since 2010.

2. Re the 'none of the current (outside or inside Wallabies) are kicking any better'.

Surely the critical point contains an embedded positive: namely, the following players have all had periods of good to very good kicking % success: Foley, Llio, JOC (James O'Connor), KB (Kurtley Beale), MG, even QC (Quade Cooper) to a degree (eg, remember Dunedin 2013). The point is, these guys can kick, but they all inevitably will get various versions of the kicking yips or depleted technique, and for varying reasons get that way, and will thus inevitably require the assistance of a specialist in remediating kicking technique, body position, head angle, run-up, timing and mental factors, etc. That's why the best kickers generally have the ongoing assistance of excellent kicking coaches; earlier today I quoted the excellent example of Wilkinson and his life-long relationship with the creme de la creme of kicking coaches, Alred. And btw, with the right technical coaching for intensive periods, kicking flaws can be fixed relatively quickly and real improvements can soon come.

3. Deans approach to the RWC 2011 in terms of the assembling of a comprehensive group of specialist coaches well in advance was not dissimilar to that of Cheika's (but btw I believe the latter is a much better Wallaby HC than Deans).

Deans either dropped or let go his 'Skills Coach' R Graham (to the Force) at the end of 2010 - this is almost unheard of going into a RWC year, and he was not replaced and Deans coached the backs and attack himself. You will recall the laughable, very odd part-time kicking coach arrangements with Bram van S, often tutoring our kickers in absentia via Sykpe FFS. And Jim Williams was not a fraction of the forwards coach that M Foley had been for Deans in 2008, before those two fell out and Foley left the Wallabies. And so on.

G Henry made no such mistakes in the lead up to 2011 - the greatest elite coach rugby has ever produced (on w-l % record) has always recognised the criticality of the right quantity, depth and quality of his support coaches.

(Re Dave Alred and Johnny, see: http://en.espn.co.uk/england/rugby/story/226273.html)

 

[RedsHappy]

Oh yes it does matter. Stats only tell part of the story.

Are you saying that a team does not take the opposing kicker's abilities into account in working out their tactics?

Further, a game can change dramatically because of a successful kick, just as it can because of a failure. We can look back and see the historical record, what we cannot do is know what might have happened had one event happened differently, be it a referee's decision, a missed tackle, a dropped ball, or the result of a goal kick.


For example, I am absolutely convinced that France would have won the RWC had Trinh-Duc kicked that penalty. They were really taking it to the ABs at that stage. You could see the French deflate and the AIG Blacks lift after that.

It was only one missed goal - but it conceivably cost one World Cup.

Just to add to your points Wamberal. Aiding our main kickers (and other players who have to kick well from hand) with their skills in kicking from hand is just as important as is place kicking.

Subject to game plan and conditions, really good hand kicks in terms of distance, trajectory and accuracy can make a vast difference to a team's ability to assert productive pressure upon the opposition.

An example of which that comes to mind in precise terms is the role that excellent kicking from hand from the Highlanders played in their recent crucial SF victory over the Tahs in Sydney.

So often IMO Australian backs just cannot match these particular kicking skills - how often do we see limp or misguided hand kicks that either miss touch, are too short to matter, or are beautifully placed to fall right into the lap of the waiting opposition's back 3's hands. Our hand kicking far too often lacks accuracy and power.

 

[TOCC]

1. Haha! I've been saying that the Wallabies need a top-notch kicking coach and full-time for the entirety of their season, since 2010.

ARU did have a kicking coach, he was let go recently for obvious reasons... Reds and Force(I think) have their own kicking coaches as well, the other teams leveraged the ARU kicking coach


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jollyswagman]

Just to add to your points Wamberal. Aiding our main kickers (and other players who have to kick well from hand) with their skills in kicking from hand is just as important as is place kicking.

Subject to game plan and conditions, really good hand kicks in terms of distance, trajectory and accuracy can make a vast difference to a team's ability to assert productive pressure upon the opposition.

An example of which that comes to mind in precise terms is the role that excellent kicking from hand from the Highlanders played in their recent crucial SF victory over the Tahs in Sydney.

So often IMO Australian backs just cannot match these particular kicking skills - how often do we see limp or misguided hand kicks that either miss touch, are too short to matter, or are beautifully placed to fall right into the lap of the waiting opposition's back 3's hands. Our hand kicking far too often lacks accuracy and power.

BRING BACK TO TORPEDO DAMN IT!!! A thing of true beauty and an old school skill that sadly seems to be missed on players these days. It was another one of those things that differentiated union from league in a good way..........oh, an the "Gary Owen" too while we are at it. I spent a few of my twilight rugby years at fullback and nothing would fill the back of your pants more quickly than some pecky little 5/8 putting up a towering bomb from inside your own half and have it dropping down 5m out from your our goal line.......and I am not talking about a box kick, or cross field kick.....a true bloody old school up and under with everyone chasing through hard....great stuff! That was back inthe day when marks were a good deal harder to take....two feet on the ground etc. You had to make the call to either catch thee bloody thing on the run and avoid the contact or plant your feet and take the hit in order to get the free kick. I am not a fan of the modern "mark" rules as it seems like a pointless stoppage.

 

[Dumbledore]

A professional rugby player should be able to kick an accurate 50 metre drop punt with regularity.

A torp will get you maybe an extra 10 metres if you really get onto it, or an extra 20-25 if you're a freak. They take more time to set up, require a bigger wind-up, and are a far lower percentage kick. The extra 10+ metres often disappear due to a mis-hit and/or the lowered accuracy.

If the ARU can't be bothered finding a serious kicking coach they should be scouting 16-year-old footy players with elite kicking skills and seeing if they can't be taught how to do the rest of it.

 

[BDA]

Cheika advised JOC (James O'Connor) to work on his speed and footwork over these few weeks. I suspect TGC also wanted James to have a good rest from any physical contact for that period to see if his nagging niggles might heal. There's a very good chance O'Connor will be on the plane to the Old Dart come September, as will Palu.

Yeh I certainly think Cheika has opted to rest Palu for the last few games. He knows what he offers, and he's better off in cotton wool for the time being.

Not that I don't think there is a possibility of Palu missing out for the RWC if others perform. I'm guessing Cheks was planning on trying out other players anyway. Higgers was one player that he wanted to try at 8, but after a pretty quiet performance against the Boks you'd have to think he'd be at the back of the line. Then again if Hooper is suspended, Higgers might get another shot off the bench to impress.

I'm guessing JOC (James O'Connor)'s position is slightly more precarious. lots of decent wingers getting game time atm, and none have played themselves out of contention yet.

 

[Thinker]

Goal kicker, captain and team that has been together for 4-8 years are all things we lack that the last 3 RWC winners have had. Goal kicker just stands out more week to week.

I often wonder what our team would look like if we adopted the 'stick together' model the Poms, Saffers and Kiwis all used.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Not sure about the proposition that this team hasn't been together that long, Thinker. The match day 23's we've featured in the last two weeks would be among the most experienced we've ever fielded. A lot of these guys have played together a long time too. I think we're OK there. In hindsight 2011 was too soon for a lot of these blokes, but in 2015 that's not the case. A good number are at their peak or should be close to it.

We're always going to have new faces or bolters in the squad in any given year, but I think we've got a pretty settled squad. The starting XV clearly still has a few question marks, but for mine there are a large number of spots nailed down.

 

[ACT Crusader]

I often wonder what our team would look like if we adopted the 'stick together' model the Poms, Saffers and Kiwis all used.

So a team that could like

Rodzilla, Moore, Kepu, Sharpe, Vickerman, Elsom, G. Smith, Palu, Genia, Cooper, Mitchell, Giteau, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper).....

Yeah sounds good

 

[kiap]

A professional rugby player should be able to kick an accurate 50 metre drop punt with regularity.

A torp will get you maybe an extra 10 metres if you really get onto it, or an extra 20-25 if you're a freak. They take more time to set up, require a bigger wind-up, and are a far lower percentage kick. The extra 10+ metres often disappear due to a mis-hit and/or the lowered accuracy.

While those are good points. I think there's still a place for the torpedo kick (for players who can develop it).

It's harder to catch which can actually be an advantage. In AFL you're aiming to hit your team mates downfield with an accurate, easily catchable kick.

But the offside rule in rugby changes that dynamic. A torpedo, particularly if there is some wind, can be a nightmare to field for the opposition's last line.

Okay, when kicking for touch you'd want the more accurate percentage kick. But if you want it a long way up in the field of play, and perhaps getting it to bounce, a torp is useful.

 

[Braveheart81]

Do you think there is a correlation between the change in the law of the ball going dead resulting in a scrum and a reduction in the use of the torpedo?

If you're trying to kick a torpedo you are likely to aim further away from touch as you know that if you really hit is sweetly it will sail much further (i.e. it's less predictable than a drop punt).

The best place to try a torpedo is from your own 22 when you have plenty of time and are trying to make touch. The risk is that if it doesn't go out, it's not inconceivable that the other side could let it roll dead if it is a really long kick and the resulting scrum is a substantial momentum swing to the opposition.

 

[daz]

If you're trying to kick a torpedo you are likely to aim further away from touch as you know that if you really hit is sweetly it will sail much further (i.e. it's less predictable than a drop punt).

The best place to try a torpedo is from your own 22 when you have plenty of time and are trying to make touch. The risk is that if it doesn't go out, it's not inconceivable that the other side could let it roll dead if it is a really long kick and the resulting scrum is a substantial momentum swing to the opposition.

Mark Gerrard used to fire off some torpedo's as penalty kick touch finders when he was with the Rebels, and he was a pretty good exponent of that particular skill.

However, the torpy has it's issues as mentioned above; they take an extra second or two to set up which can be a charge-down issue inside the 22, plus they quite often don't go where you want them to if you don't hit the sweet spot.

As touch finders, I like them, but as kicks under pressure, they can be a coin toss for both teams.

Still, a well timed torpy sailing 50-odd metres in a straight spiral is a joy to behold!