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The Fallout from RWC 2015

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Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
Whether we like it or not, top level International Rugby has oriented itself to a 4 year cycle based around the Rugby World Cup.

It is also big business with very significant amounts of money involved. IIRC NZL are not all that keen at hosting the circus again after the licence fees imposed by IRB for the privilege of hosting the event. It was $150m USD up front. Then there is all the costs associated with stadium upgrades, and the loss of revenue due to Olympic Games style central control of sponsor signage and opportunities surrounding the event.

Players and coaches can significantly increase or decrease their net worth based on performances at the RWC. Many players international careers revolve around a retirement after the next RWC. Some strangle the golden goose by trying to go to one too many RWC's.

Match Officials are frequently lambasted for their performances at RWC time. This may or may not be justified, but rational thought is often not foremost in the minds of many in the rugby community, be they supporters, "journalists", media personalities, or the commentariat. Some recover from this and move on to bigger and better things - yes I'm looking at you Wayne Barnes, others go the way of poor old Bryce Lawrence who is unlikely to ever step foot in a certain country.

Who will be the victims of fallout from RWC 2015?

While he has a commercially binding contract with the England Rugby Board until 2020, the pressure to find a scapegoat may see Stuart Lancaster and England Rugby amicably part ways before his contract is completed. He may be the first victim. That would be sad as I think he has potential to make a difference in English Rugby, which by all accounts has more intrigue, Machiavellianism and vested interests swirling around it than we have in the outpost that is NSW Rugby. Sadly underwhelming team performances are always the Coaches fault after all it is far easier and cheaper to sack and replace the one bloke in charge, than doing the same with the about 20 "non-swimmers" from the extended squad.

On the subject of rugby political interference, the Saffers probably make Will Carling's 57 Old Farts look like the amateurs that they are in that particular sphere. After the result against Japan, Heyneke Meyer must be like a dead man walking in the eyes of many "back home", and the knives will be out for many of the old age pensioners in his RWC squad, and that is before you even start to factor in whatever racial quotas the Bokke has to comply with.

Here in Australia, land of everything poisonous, vicious, and many things carnivorous, we eat our young when when World Domination expectations are unmet, particularly when that victim is currently resident across state lines, regardless of their birthright. The Wallabies are winning at the moment so all is calm, but the forces are marshalling in preparation for the inevitable, and it won't be pretty when it happens. Residents of the Tropical Cyclone prone north of Australia would recognise the false sense of security and calmness that coincides with the arrival of the eye of the storm. Unless Bill comes home on Flight QF1 from London and takes up residence in the trophy cabinet in HQ ARU, the eye of the storm will surely move and there will be fallout.

If you think we eat our young here, then go across the Tasman Ditch and see what happens there when the NZL Rugby Team fails in its quadrennial mission as has happened so often. The Minister of Finance and their Treasury Department plan the NZL budget and GDP forecasts around the results of the Dominion's No 1 Brand, especially after repeated failures of their government underwritten Team NZ America's Cup campaigns. You know the sort of thing - Sir Richie GOAT is too old and slow. Dan the Wizard Carter is too injury prone and never makes it to a RWC final. Stephen Duck Donald is off the grid whitebatiing somewhere. The bearings on the wheels of Kevin Old Man River Mealamu's zimmer frame have been rusted out. Julian The Bus Savea is more what the Septics call a "Short Bus", #ScrumStraghtWyatt Crockett and so on.

Warren Gatland has a perfect excuse for underperforming based on the the injury ward at Welsh Team Rehab, which some pundits have referred to as being busier than a casualty clearing station at the Battle of the Somme. It is an excuse that has worked in Queensland for Richard Graham. Will the Boyos accept that or ask some questions and scratch below the surface and ask some hard questions about the conditioning of players for the RWC. Some early shots have already been fired on social media and comparisons have been made to Stephen Dank and the Essenden AFL sports science programme.

Phillipe Saint-Andre and Les Bleus? Well, they are Les Blues and anything can and will happen and they don't really care.

And what about the draw and the so called Pools of Death. The performances of the minnows has shown that even the easier pools can be rather challenging to navigate out of if the eye is not on the prize and the A game left on the shelf. Is the draw made too early? Are there too many or too few teams? Is the distribution of "short turnaround" games fair and equitable?

There is a perception that the Judiciary, and the Match Officials are dealing more harshly with Tier 2 country players than Tier 1 team players. People will interpret what they want to interpret and align those interpretations with their personal prejudices and biases. As long as the injustices are being visited upon players from teams they don't support, it often matters little to them, but look out when an incorrect call is made on one of their own.

TL: DR. Who is for the chop and why, or why not?
 
T

TOCC

Guest
Coaches will come and go..

But i think the biggest fallout will be, or should be that the 'Pool of Death' never happens again. It's fine for us Aussie fans to be lauding the demise of England, but it's not healthy for the competition. The Quarter Finals should feature the 8 strongest teams in the world, yet the way this RWC has panned out i don't think that will be the case.

Like FIFA, World Rugby should decide the pools closer to the tournament which sees an even division of the strongest teams. Its unfortunate that a team like Fiji, who could have in reality reach the QF had they been in another pool had to face 3 of the top ranked teams in the world.
 

Highlander35

Andrew Slack (58)
This time around, if the pots had been dictated by rankings, they would have been the same regardless of whether it occurred immediately after African Qualification (roughly 7th of July) or after the repechage tournament (Roughly 14th October).

Seeds
NZ
SA
Australia
England

Pot 2
Ireland
Wales
France
Scotland

Pot 3
Samoa
Japan
Fiji
Argentina

Pot 4
Tonga
Italy
Georgia
Romania

Pot 5
Canada
USA
Namibia
Repechage

So we still could have had some sort of pool of death, something like:

Bokke, France, Argentina, Italy, Canada/States. Slightly less likely though.
 
T

TOCC

Guest
Edit:

Team can still go through the qualifying process as per normal, but then come the draw which could be done 9months out similar to the FIFA World Cup, conduct the pool selection based on the rankings 1-20 of the teams who have qualified.

Seeded teams(1-4):
England(hosts)
New Zealand
South Africa
Ireland

Seeded team(5-8):
Australia
Wales
France
Scotland

Seeded teams(9-12)
Argentina
Samoa
Japan
Fiji

Seeded Teams(13-17)
Tonga
Italy
Georgia
USA

Seeded teams(17-20)
Romania
Canada
Uruguay
Namibia



*Based off World Rankings from January 2015
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
I wonder if anybody in Wales will ask the question about if their team is able to play something other than the limited game plan Gatland has had them running for how many years now?

Same questions will have to be asked in the England camp in how Lancaster and Co decided after building an attacking style over the past few years they threw that in the bin a couple of months out from the RWC to go back to their limited grinding game.

In Japan they will be thinking holy shit we have the ability, who can take us forward and build on the base E. Jones and team have provided and the BIG question, what national structures will allow and support that goal.

Australia for many here have already outperformed to what we expected this time last year, and after the EOYT results and how they played I fully expected a pool stage exit with 2 wins at best. I am happy with how they have played and with the intent of their play.

World Rug by will be brought under huge pressure to ensure that sides like England are not eliminated in the Pool Stages in the future, I for one hope that they do not buckle and give in, the 'Pool of Death' was always a high pressure pool and got a lot of attention because of it. That pressure itself brings something to the cup along with the boilover results like Japan v SA. If we face the truth England really didn't deserve to get out of the pool on the way they played.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
I think people are being a bit overly down on England's performance. I wholeheartedly agree that they got their tactics wrong in that their game plan relied on having a dominant set piece. All they had was a dominant goal kicker.

They just lost to Wales after being ahead for most of the match and generally being in control. Wales' try was pretty fortunate and of the ball had bounced a different way they wouldn't have scored.

The Wallabies played their best test in about a decade to knock England off. Even then, there were only 7 points in it with 10 minutes to go.

I don't think things were a huge distance away from England being undefeated and Australia and Wales playing off for the other quarter final spot next weekend.
 

aeneas

Tom Lawton (22)
I think people are being a bit overly down on England's performance. I wholeheartedly agree that they got their tactics wrong in that their game plan relied on having a dominant set piece. All they had was a dominant goal kicker.

They just lost to Wales after being ahead for most of the match and generally being in control. Wales' try was pretty fortunate and of the ball had bounced a different way they wouldn't have scored.

The Wallabies played their best test in about a decade to knock England off. Even then, there were only 7 points in it with 10 minutes to go.

I don't think things were a huge distance away from England being undefeated and Australia and Wales playing off for the other quarter final spot next weekend.


We are in the winners have parties and losers have meetings part of the analysis of the Eng vs Aus game.
 

Strewthcobber

Mark Ella (57)
Looks like none of the pacific island nations will finish in the top 3 of their groups - so won't automatically qualify for 2019.

There's only one regional qualifier, and one repechage spot, so one of Samoa, Fiji and Tonga will not make 2019 if the format stays the same.

Not sure who gets sacked, but there will be some very disappointed people out there if that happens
 

zer0

Jim Lenehan (48)
Looks like none of the pacific island nations will finish in the top 3 of their groups - so won't automatically qualify for 2019.

There's only one regional qualifier, and one repechage spot, so one of Samoa, Fiji and Tonga will not make 2019 if the format stays the same.

Not sure who gets sacked, but there will be some very disappointed people out there if that happens

Actually one of the Pacific Island nations is sitting at the top of Pool C, and has already qualified for 2019.[/pedant]

Needless pedantry aside, Japan automatically qualifies for 2019. Therefore the Asia qualification spot will be free. Wouldn't be surprised to see some IRB sorcery used to open the spot up to the PI teams.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
I wouldn't be so sure that will remain the case.

The spots assigned are decided by World Rugby. I think there will be scope to change it in the lead up to the 2019 RWC qualifying.

Japan will make it as an automatic qualifier due to both finishing third in their pool and being the host country.

Georgia is likely to qualify automatically for finishing third in their pool.

I'd be surprised if Asia retains an automatic qualifying spot which would go to a team outside the top 20 and likewise Europe may get one less automatic spot because Georgia will probably already to qualified.
 

Highlander35

Andrew Slack (58)
There'll be some voodoo involved. I think it's a little bit unfortunate for teams like Russia, and to a lesser extent, the other asian sides, why should their regional spots be taken away because their region is successful and another one isn't?

But it's very easy to imagine the shoe had been on the other foot. If things had fallen differently, Wales, Italy, Scotland, Georgia and Romania could have all failed to qualify automatically and would then need to squeeze into 2 spots plus a repechage slot.

I think it potentially signals the need for 2 things. Firstly, the expansion of the World Cup. Teams like Russia and Zimbabwe/Kenya wouldn't be too far off in terms of performance compared to Romania and Namibia. While it could end up with a few more thumpings with someone like Hong Kong or Brazil in the pools, the gains would be worthwhile.

The second, is decoupling automatic qualification from performance at the previous world cup, with the exception of the top 3 (to add value to the dead rubber). A change to a 6 pools of 4 teams and a round of 16 retains the incentive to finishing 3rd in the pool, and it means there's a greater liklihood of the non six nations/Rugby Championship teams playing games against the big guys for the purpose of qualification.
 

BDA

Peter Johnson (47)
One probable Fall-out from the RWC 2015 will be the death of the myth that Australia can't scrummage. There's still time for us to stuff that up, but I can't remember many teams in the last 10 years dishing it out to England so comprehensively at Twickenham. There can't have been many current and budding referees that weren't watching that game.

The effect shouldn't be understated. It will be nice to be on the other side of the 50/50 calls for the next 4 years. Cause one thing is for certain, the future still looks pretty bright in terms of our front row stocks.

Sio, Slipper and Smith should all be mainstays in the team for the next 4 years. Kepu and Holmes should still be available for some time. I could definitely see Cheika luring PAE back from overseas.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
There'll be some voodoo involved. I think it's a little bit unfortunate for teams like Russia, and to a lesser extent, the other asian sides, why should their regional spots be taken away because their region is successful and another one isn't?


I think the qualification is always set up in this way. It just normally stays the same because roughly the same teams finish in the top 3 in their pool. There is a reason it isn't set in stone in advance of the automatic qualifiers.

Likewise if Australia, NZ, Samoa, Fiji and Tonga all qualified automatically then I'd expect them to get rid of a guaranteed Oceania spot because it would be a free pass to a team who doesn't deserve to be there automatically.
 

Highlander35

Andrew Slack (58)
I sort of agree. Manipulating the qualification system to ensure the best teams qualify makes sense from a rugby perspective, just it feels a little low. If FIFA did, the World Cup would basically be CONSAR v UEFA, with maybe 8 or so teams between Asia, Africa, Oceania and CONCACAF, whereas I think they get about a dozen between them now.

Last time around we had Africa 1, Asia 1, Oceania 1, Europe 1 and 2, America 1 and 2, and repechage (Europe 3, Asia 2, America 3 and Africa 2).

If I had a go, I'd think that Africa 1, Americas 1 and 2, Oceania 1 and Europe 1 should stay. Then I'd have Oceania 2 also qualify, with Europe 2 and Asia 1 play off for the 7th spot, and have the loser of that join Africa 2, America 3 and Oceania 3 in the Repechage.

The likelihood is that we'll see one or Oceania 3, Europe 2 and Asia 1 make it through arbitrarily in the 7th Qualifying spot, with the others in the Repechage.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
I sort of agree. Manipulating the qualification system to ensure the best teams qualify makes sense from a rugby perspective, just it feels a little low. If FIFA did, the World Cup would basically be CONSAR v UEFA, with maybe 8 or so teams between Asia, Africa, Oceania and CONCACAF, whereas I think they get about a dozen between them now.


FIFA does manipulate things though around the edges.

The half spots etc. change depending on who is the host.

South America didn't get an extra spot because Brazil qualified automatically as host. They lost a spot due compared to normal due to Brazil being an automatic qualifier. I.e. the end result was that there was the same number of South American teams that there normally are.
 

Omar Comin'

Chilla Wilson (44)
I'd be surprised if Asia retains an automatic qualifying spot which would go to a team outside the top 20.


I wouldn't. It's an Asian world cup. You can't take away Asia's automatic qualifying spot for an Asian world cup, especially when Japan has guaranteed there will be just 12 automatic qualifiers and not 13 (if they'd have come 4th or 5th in the pool they still would have been there automatically as hosts).

I think for a tournament in Japan it'll be good for the game to have a 2nd Asian team involved. Hong Kong and Korea now have a massive opportunity and huge incentive to improve. They're currently ranked 24th and 25th, so it's not like they're miles away! They're ahead of Kenya and Zimbabwe who were both incredibly close to qualifying for this tournament.

The Hong Kong Union is rolling in money and I'm sure Korea can find some investment from somewhere. I bet WR (World Rugby) would rather give this incentive for those countries to improve than make sure all of Fiji, Samoa and Tonga can qualify.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
I would be very surprised if they didn't take away either the automatic qualification spot from Asia or one of the Europe spots or both those things.

If the situation remains unchanged then two out of Fiji, Samoa and Tonga wouldn't be at the 2019 RWC. It just isn't going to happen.

If anyone thinks that World Rugby won't provide a qualification process that gives an opportunity for all three of Tonga, Samoa and Fiji to make the 2019 RWC then I'm very happy to make a bet. :D
 

Omar Comin'

Chilla Wilson (44)
Well South America don't even have an automatic qualifying spot (the only region without one) so they are surely first in line to get one if you're serious about growing the game around the world.

Assuming Georgia beat Namibia and qualify then I think they'll take away the European repechage spot and give it to Oceania. That or the Asian repechage spot.

So I think 2 of the islander nations will make it through and not 3, but I'm not willing to make a bet! Who knows what we'll get with WR (World Rugby) politics and governance. But I do think it'd be grossly unfair for Oceania to have 3 spots (or 2 and 1 repechage) with South America and Asia getting 1 repechage spot each! Samoa, Fiji and Tonga had their chances to make top 3 in their pools and didn't take them!
 
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