Back to the future.

[Omar Comin']

Well not that it's saying much but the Kings conceded more points than them last year. But no doubt they haven't been competitive in a number of games. Concluding that they therefore shouldn't exist, after 1 season and 1 game, just doesn't sit right with me when they get better crowds (at least in Tokyo) than most other teams in the comp. Surely it's possible for them to be made competitive.

 

[Omar Comin']

So why isn't that the solution to Australias perceived problems? All the old boy brigade from Sydney want to do is cut teams, especially if they're Australian and not based in Sydney.
A full stadium is nice but considering there was one stand short at the ground, that number looks inflated to me. Besides, we know damn well that crowds drop when teams start to make a habit of losing.
We are all in the same comp, shouldn't the same standards apply?

I'm not at all in favour of cutting an Australian team.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Sorry, I thought it went without saying that the Kings shouldn't be there either.

FTR they conceded 684 last year with six 50+: 58 v Chiefs, 57 v Crusaders, 73 v Jaguares, 53 v Sharks, 57 v Lions & 52 v Stormers.

Cut them both, I say, or go two-tier & make them earn a place at the top table.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

So why isn't that the solution to Australias perceived problems? All the old boy brigade from Sydney want to do is cut teams, especially if they're Australian and not based in Sydney.
A full stadium is nice but considering there was one stand short at the ground, that number looks inflated to me. Besides, we know damn well that crowds drop when teams start to make a habit of losing.
We are all in the same comp, shouldn't the same standards apply?

I may have started the thread but I actually am not a fan of cutting any teams. I'd prefer to keep all five.

 

[Omar Comin']

One simple solution to making teams more competitive could be if New Zealand in particular allowed their players to remain eligible for the All Blacks while playing Super Rugby in another country. Even if just on a limited basis.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

^^^^^^^^^^^ That is flat out the silliest thing I've seen on this site since Shiggins last posted. Here's a better idea: you other blokes catch up, just like NZ had to last time the boot was on t'other foot, circa 1998-2002.

 

[Omar Comin']

Well it's not in New Zealand's interest for Super Rugby to fail, and that's the way it's going. And I was referring more to the Sunwolves than any other team. Though also a little to teams like the Force and Rebels. It's in everyone's interest for these teams to be more competitive and popular in their markets, and NZ has the deepest pool of talent (while also being the smallest commercial market).

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

IMO it's NZR's job to ensure that the All Blacks, Super Rugby franchises & M10 Cup sides are as strong as they can possibly be. Sunwolves are JRU's problem, Force & Rebels are ARU's problem, Kings are SARU's problem, etc, etc.

I kinda get where you're coming from & I love your passion for growing the game into new territories but It's just not NZR's job to "save" the game anywhere/ everywhere else just because we happen to be at the (unusually extended) top of our cycle, any more than it was ARU's job to do it in 1998-2002 or SARU's in 2007-09 or "The" RU's whenever Ringinland is next top of the heap.

 

[Omar Comin']

My point is that if Super Rugby were to fall over the NZ model falls over too.

So it's not just about saving or growing the game elsewhere, it's about what's in NZ rugby's best interest. It's very easy to see a future where all the best rugby players from Australia and New Zealand play club rugby in Europe and the only world class rugby played in our part of the world are test matches.

 

[mst]

^^Thats a big call as the NZRU model is not dependent on Super Rugby money like the ARU. NZRU have the AB's as a big card to play and they are playing it to protect their future atm.

I think what people are missing in his whole argument is you remove the financial realities from the equation the Super Rugby format and draw would be much different.

But instead its the compromises that are the real issue with the Super Rugby format.

Most of the compromises are around financial issues, and which country do you think has most of the "financial issues" and because of it has special needs atm? There is one key SANZARR member that wants "home derbies" while 3 others desperately want less.

The Saffers have a huge market that aligns with Europe. They have suffered ratings, crowds and a drop in revenue due to "home derbies". The Kiwi AB money making machine provides pretty well, and there domestic products have hit the ceiling and they don't want anymore. They need other markets. Japan is looking to grow outward as they have a strong Top league and the Jaguares need an external market to help fund the growth of their game.

So who the odd one out? Who has the most to lose?

So lets be honest. If Australian rugby had there shite together and we had 5 healthy strong teams, we would be demanding the other Super Rugby unions get there collective shite together.

There is reality to this and it is if Aussie rugby loses the toe hold of the TV and market share they have, they may not get it back - ever.

When Australian rugby has some sort of sustainable fall back position and a plan to survive without the SANZAAR TV revenue then we can fantasise about alternatives.

Its not a hard to see that if Super Rugby goes, SANZAAR goes, and when its each to there own the RC will most likely be gone as the Saffers and Pumas will play in Europe more, Beldisloes will be rare as the AB's will be after the $$$ from Europe - so where does it leave the Wallabies, ARU and Aussie rugby in general?

We cant even fund a domestic competition without Foxtels help, so again when the Super Rugby goes what income stream will the ARU have and how small will it be?

Right now, we need them (SANZAAR partners) more then they need us.

 

[TOCC]

One simple solution to making teams more competitive could be if New Zealand in particular allowed their players to remain eligible for the All Blacks while playing Super Rugby in another country. Even if just on a limited basis.

New Zealand is the best thing about Super Rugby, there teams play the most consistently entertaining and competitive Rugby.

Diluting the quality of the top kiwi teams to prop up teams like the Sunwolves and Kings isn't a sustainable option, nor does it improve the overall quality of the competition. It's also an option that the NZRU would never allow, they enjoy success at all levels because they have a centrally controlled model with All Blacks staff seamlessly integrated into the operations of the Super Rugby teams.. NZRU don't want their best players move to an organisation like the Sunwolves which has a 3 week pre-season.

Sunwolves fan base is a strong one, but at the end of the day their ongoing participation undermines the credibility of the competition, their admission into Super Rugby was done poorly and lacked guidance, even Eddie Jones said that failure was inevitable because the JFRU refused to put in place the necessary systems required to compete at this level.

 

[Omar Comin']

^^Thats a big call as the NZRU model is not dependent on Super Rugby money like the ARU. NZRU have the AB's as a big card to play and they are playing it to protect their future atm.

I don't know if that's true. Imagine Super Rugby falls over and all the unions just play domestic club or provincial level tournaments. The NZRU could afford to centrally contract the All Blacks players, but what about the guys on the fringes? Their salaries would fall. Are they going to play for 50-100k a year in the NPC when they could make 5+ times more than that overseas? If they go what's the point in keeping the best 20 players in NZ when they'll be playing with and against guys outside the top 70 or more? The NZRU might then simply be under too much pressure from these players to allow them to play club rugby overseas, while maintaining AB eligibility.

And if the money in European club rugby keeps increasing at a faster rate than the money offered by the SANZAAR Unions that will reach a tipping point anyway. It's not that far away, it's already at a fair angle. How long until world rugby resembles world soccer?

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Sad but true MS

^^Thats a big call as the NZRU model is not dependent on Super Rugby money like the ARU. NZRU have the AB's as a big card to play and they are playing it to protect their future atm.

I think what people are missing in his whole argument is you remove the financial realities from the equation the Super Rugby format and draw would be much different.

But instead its the compromises that are the real issue with the Super Rugby format.

Most of the compromises are around financial issues, and which country do you think has most of the "financial issues" and because of it has special needs atm? There is one key SANZARR member that wants "home derbies" while 3 others desperately want less.

The Saffers have a huge market that aligns with Europe. They have suffered ratings, crowds and a drop in revenue due to "home derbies". The Kiwi AB money making machine provides pretty well, and there domestic products have hit the ceiling and they don't want anymore. They need other markets. Japan is looking to grow outward as they have a strong Top league and the Jaguares need an external market to help fund the growth of their game.

So who the odd one out? Who has the most to lose?

So lets be honest. If Australian rugby had there shite together and we had 5 healthy strong teams, we would be demanding the other Super Rugby unions get there collective shite together.

There is reality to this and it is if Aussie rugby loses the toe hold of the TV and market share they have, they may not get it back - ever.

When Australian rugby has some sort of sustainable fall back position and a plan to survive without the SANZAAR TV revenue then we can fantasise about alternatives.

Its not a hard to see that if Super Rugby goes, SANZAAR goes, and when its each to there own the RC will most likely be gone as the Saffers and Pumas will play in Europe more, Beldisloes will be rare as the AB's will be after the $$$ from Europe - so where does it leave the Wallabies, ARU and Aussie rugby in general?

We cant even fund a domestic competition without Foxtels help, so again when the Super Rugby goes what income stream will the ARU have and how small will it be?

Right now, we need them (SANZAAR partners) more then they need us.

Sad but true MST that we need SANZAAR at the moment then they need us in Short to Medium term but got to keep trying to look at developing an alternative that would work better for Oz rugby and where my preference national professional domestic comp.....maybe with other Pacific Island, NZ sides included...maybe not....easier said then done....as you allude to

 

[NTT]

Despite there being a very physical and very competitive match between the Wallabies laden Waratahs and a Force side featuring a record number of WA produced talent, that could of gone either way and was robbed of free flowing play by heavy conditions, the first article us Force fans see is Mark Ella bagging out the Force and trying to insinuate that the Force has been detrimental to the ARU coffers despite being self sufficient for all but 1 of their seasons of existence.
Why is the Sydney press so against progression of Australian rugby as a whole? Georgina, Spiro, Wayne Smith, Mark Ella, progressing and expanding rugby as a national sport is not the problem. You the press with the power to influence peoples thinking is the problem. You are so determined to push your ideological vision of yesteryear you are missing the now and the potential for tomorrow. Instead of ramping up support for our professional players, you constantly deride their exploits as meritless because they fail to reach a standard you have created which quite frankly is just a poor assumption based on what you think, not on what is truly happening. We have just begun a new season of the toughest rugby competition in the world yet the reporting is about the impending death of our sport instead of celebrating and drumming up support for our professional players. I have absolutely no doubt what soever that crowd numbers were lower this round due to the constant negativity, doom and gloom reporting and a conceited campaign to drag the sport of rugby through the mud at every opportunity.
Australian rugby, incredibly unfairly in my opinion, is only suffering an image crisis because of negative coverage that has been allowed to continue for far too long. Kids are smart enough to understand the tone around the reporting and if kids don't want to drag their parents to the rugby to see their idols play close up then congratulations, mission accomplished you have got the outcome the press wants, Australian rugbys death by a 1000 cuts. The whole saga is sad and unnecessary.

That is why rugby is dying in Australia.

 

[Slim 293]

Mark Ella is just another inflated windbag who abuses his position in the media to waffle nostalgic rubbish............

 

[TOCC]

Certain parts of the NSW Rugby community still want the Shute Shield to evolve into the national competition as the VFL and NSWRL did


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[mst]

I don't know if that's true. Imagine Super Rugby falls over and all the unions just play domestic club or provincial level tournaments. The NZRU could afford to centrally contract the All Blacks players, but what about the guys on the fringes? Their salaries would fall. Are they going to play for 50-100k a year in the NPC when they could make 5+ times more than that overseas? If they go what's the point in keeping the best 20 players in NZ when they'll be playing with and against guys outside the top 70 or more? The NZRU might then simply be under too much pressure from these players to allow them to play club rugby overseas, while maintaining AB eligibility.

And if the money in European club rugby keeps increasing at a faster rate than the money offered by the SANZAAR Unions that will reach a tipping point anyway. It's not that far away, it's already at a fair angle. How long until world rugby resembles world soccer?

You need to be cautious that the assumptions that your arguments are predicated on are actually valid.

So Super Rugby gets canned. Who says SARU, NZRU and JRFU do breath a collective sigh of relief and say thanks! The dead woods gone so lets do a Super Super Rugby and hit up the European / Japanese market? The Kiwi teams draw crowd, the Japanese teams bring a new market and money, and SA can cut teams and bring a time zone conducive to European TV and America.

But going back to your comment why would NZ rugby just play domestic club or provincial level tournaments? They have a product that many markets would love to trade off - even us!

They not only operate in a different and smaller market, but use a different model. They, unlike the ARU and Australian rugby in general, realised they have a very small pond and market, but high quality big fish. It is why they have a higher standard of [players / games, a strong domestic competition thats key limitation is its own limited marketplace, the NZRU has money in the bank, and unlike the Wallabies, everybody want to ply the AB lots of money to play them in every market they can think of as they generate interest and money.

At the end of the day it a moot point as what the Kiwi do is their problem and they will have plenty of friends and far more options than we have.

 

[mst]

Sad but true MS
Sad but true MST that we need SANZAAR at the moment then they need us in Short to Medium term but got to keep trying to look at developing an alternative that would work better for Oz rugby and where my preference national professional domestic comp...maybe with other Pacific Island, NZ sides included.maybe not..easier said then done..as you allude to

Pacific teams have no money and limited market to get any financial returns. So even if World Rugby pays the bills for a pacific team (the ARU and SANZAAR cant afford it) it only increases the financial burden that is the key issue.

 

[mst]

Certain parts of the NSW Rugby community still want the Shute Shield to evolve into the national competition as the VFL and NSWRL did


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

....but in doing so want to ignore history and the "reality" based parts where you have dismantle the current model, competition, traditions and history and they also want someone else to pay for it.

 

[mst]

Mark Ella is just another inflated windbag who abuses his position in the media to waffle nostalgic rubbish....

I totally agree. There is a long list like him littered through all parts of the game.

IMHO the majority of the time the key whingers and protagonists in most of these issue are ex-players or ex-ARU administrators all levering off their past as a justification as to their qualification to make comment on the issues yet are devoid of anything that doesn't require the ARU to pay for their grand plans using the magical ARU money tree!