Where to for Super Rugby?

[BLR]

Just financial isn't it? Seems that's been the primary factor from any interview with Clyne or Pulver I've seen.

Up for debate whether the ARU will improve the game here with the $16m odd savings over 3 years (obviously less any closing costs).


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They may be using that as an excuse but considering the Force are the number one target and have, besides a few blips, been pretty good financially in the past I would say there is more to it.

 

[Sauron]

SARU departing lock, stock and barrel to Europe is going to run through the rumour mill for ever. That does not make the logistics any more workable.

Pro12, now Pro14 would be Pro15 with the Sharks. Add Bulls, Lions and Stormers and you have a Super-style mess. Or the last three join England? Same mess.

The issues of North v South away game seasons still has to be tested and won't be easy.

My guess is that there will be Saffer teams wanting access to NZ (and Aus I guess) rugby competition for some time.

I'm not so sure. The Saffers are reluctant to go into any competition format that requires too much crossing of time zones, and if the financial reward is equal or better in Europe, why wouldn't they go?

Arguably, the Pro 12 would be best served if all 6 South African franchises switched over- then they'd be able to run 3 six-team conferences quite easily. Would likely be a great comp tbh.

 

[daz]

Can anyone answer this:

Have the ARU actually explained as to how cutting a team is supposed to improve rugby union in Australia, and if so, what are those reasons?

I don't know about improvements to the rest of Oz rugby, but it sure as shit has given us something to talk about endlessly for the last few months.

I suspect Gagger made up this whole thing in Fairfax to direct traffic to GAGR.

 

[Strewthcobber]

Are the SARU going to be able to continue to be part of TRC if all of their teams are playing in Europe?

The international game $$$ may not quite be as important for them as it is for us but it would still be a pretty huge part of their pie.

 

[half]

Are the SARU going to be able to continue to be part of TRC if all of their teams are playing in Europe?

The international game $$$ may not quite be as important for them as it is for us but it would still be a pretty huge part of their pie.

Couple of points.

1] They can still play Australia & NZ in international breaks.

2] They can also play against England & France which would be reasonable games and would generate I would argue more revenue than playing Australia & NZ.

 

[Strewthcobber]

Couple of points.

1] They can still play Australia & NZ in international breaks.

2] They can also play against England & France which would be reasonable games and would generate I would argue more revenue than playing Australia & NZ.

Hard to see them playing England and France in the current six nations window and presumably they'd still want to tour up north in Nov and host in June.

Assuming they don't play through in Aug-Oct during the Pro tourney (which they might) it pretty much means shifting TRC including Bled to Feb.

Can't see the ARU & NZRU being too happy about that. Interesting times ahead

 

[half]

Hard to see them playing England and France in the current six nations window and presumably they'd still want to tour up north in Nov and host in June.

Assuming they don't play through in Aug-Oct during the Pro tourney (which they might) it pretty much means shifting TRC including Bled to Feb.

Can't see the ARU & NZRU being too happy about that. Interesting times ahead

Interesting times indeed.

 

[half]

wow what a hard hitting article by Paul Cully in the smh today, I will copy a couple of bits.

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/u...ys-last-roll-of-the-dice-20170712-gxa5gb.html


This is Super Rugby's last roll of the dice


Rarely has Super Rugby appeared so dangerously close to irrelevance than last week's Waratahs v Jaguares game.

Even if the Australian Rugby Union successfully cuts a team, this competition could still be heading for the knacker's yard.​

It is not alarmist to say these are existential threats to Super Rugby.

Super Rugby has two years to find its identity again. At its best it was an advertisement for southern hemisphere rugby's pre-eminence. Now it is just a vehicle for its flaws.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

What is starting to cause me great concern is Gibson's culling fest at the Tahs, which I understand is not over.
I do not understand where the replacement players are going to come from - presumably it cannot be from Shute Shield because they would have been identified already.
The Tahs are already a basket case and he seems set on getting to the bottom as quickly as possible.
This a huge issue for Australian rugby - we are nowhere while ever Reds and Tahs are rudderless.

 

[Braveheart81]

What is starting to cause me great concern is Gibson's culling fest at the Tahs, which I understand is not over.
I do not understand where the replacement players are going to come from - presumably it cannot be from Shute Shield because they would have been identified already.
The Tahs are already a basket case and he seems set on getting to the bottom as quickly as possible.
This a huge issue for Australian rugby - we are nowhere while ever Reds and Tahs are rudderless.

The question of where the replacements will come from is certainly valid, but none of the players culled are causing me to lose any sleep.

I would have liked to have kept Skelton and Horne but they certainly haven't been culled.

 

[RugbyReg]

Can anyone answer this:

Have the ARU actually explained as to how cutting a team is supposed to improve rugby union in Australia, and if so, what are those reasons?

I think it's the Ben Darwin argument isn't it? Fewer teams, better combinations etc etc.

Here's the graph the ARU released with their initial announcement.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

The question of where the replacements will come from is certainly valid, but none of the players culled are causing me to lose any sleep.

I would have liked to have kept Skelton and Horne but they certainly haven't been culled.

Therein lies the problem: they should have been.
I reckon Meakes might bob up at the Tahs.
Have coleman and arnold got gigs? WhatabOUT DHP and the other HP?
Phillip might come back but the Tahs never seemed greatly interested in him when he was here.

 

[lou75]

I think it's the Ben Darwin argument isn't it? Fewer teams, better combinations etc etc.

Here's the graph the ARU released with their initial announcement.

View attachment 9508

I think they forgot to put the ARU leadership team overlay on that as well, because when I look at it, I see Rob Clarke in 2005-07 causing a big drop when he was second in charge and then again from 2014- 2017 when he was back in the gig. Lets explore that relationship.

 

[stoff]

I think it's the Ben Darwin argument isn't it? Fewer teams, better combinations etc etc.

Here's the graph the ARU released with their initial announcement.

View attachment 9508

To me that actually shows a plateau or improvement coming off the back of each disruption. After the Force introduction things had stabilised and were improving up until the Rebels introduction. Things were pretty stable after the first season Rebels bump was absorbed, but they then decided to go to the current mess of a system and things went haywire for us. Had we stuck with the 2015 model the history shows we probably wouldn't have slid so far and maybe even improved. Fits with the Darwin cohesion theory.


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[James Pettifer]

I think it's the Ben Darwin argument isn't it? Fewer teams, better combinations etc etc.

Here's the graph the ARU released with their initial announcement.

View attachment 9508

It is a wonderful piece of making a decision and then finding facts to justify it.

If you look at number of semi finalists or winners, the 5 team scenario matches very well against the 3 and 4 team system.

They also haven't taken into account that if there are 18 teams then of course your average position is going to reduce.

 

[BLR]

It is a wonderful piece of making a decision and then finding facts to justify it.

Plus they completely ignore the fact complete inability to adapt to the professional era in structure outside of Super Rugby.

We were just lucky in the amateur era we did alright at the start of Super Rugby. We were clearly going to be overtaken by nations which adapted better to professional rugby.

 

[Joe Blow]

wow what a hard hitting article by Paul Cully in the smh today, I will copy a couple of bits.

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/u...ys-last-roll-of-the-dice-20170712-gxa5gb.html


This is Super Rugby's last roll of the dice


Rarely has Super Rugby appeared so dangerously close to irrelevance than last week's Waratahs v Jaguares game.

Even if the Australian Rugby Union successfully cuts a team, this competition could still be heading for the knacker's yard.​

It is not alarmist to say these are existential threats to Super Rugby.

Super Rugby has two years to find its identity again. At its best it was an advertisement for southern hemisphere rugby's pre-eminence. Now it is just a vehicle for its flaws.

It is an excellent article and on the money. But we have more issues locally in Australia than a failing Super comp. Rugby in this country is really on a slippery slope and could be dealt an irreversible blow if something is not done to buck the current trend soon. I find myself not wanting to watch the losing Super Rugby sides or a losing Wallabies side.
I am a rugby tragic who started playing the game as soon as I could catch a ball as a junior. Union on Saturdays and League on Sundays. Then right through school in union, then grade and eventually subbies before winding up playing socially OS. Since retiring from playing I get up at all hours of the night to watch Super games and every single Wallabies test. I have travelled vast distances to get to a TV or an internet connection to catch a test on more occasions than I can remember.
Memories of the 84 Wallabies and the great sides of the 90s have been highlights. How did we get to where we are now?
I'm on the edge and wonder if it is worth those 3am wake ups or mammoth overland expeditions to watch the games any more. Is it worth the inevitable disappointment and bad mood for the following day or so?
Am I the only one who feels this way? I would wager that I am not and that Australian rugby is losing support at a growing rate as opposed to growing the game as they are supposed to be doing.

Sad times indeed...........

 

[kiap]

It is an excellent article and on the money.

Paul Cully, like many of his New Zealand compatriots, has taken a looong time to smell the coffee on Super Rugby.

This stuff was evident way more than a year ago. Super Rugby as we know it is practically dead already.

The game is now about managing the transition post Super Rugby. There may be couple of seasons' worth of funding to do that. But while other formats of pro club rugby can still be salvaged, the type of competition in its current guise is simply not going to survive.

I agree with your other points.

 

[TOCC]

I think it's the Ben Darwin argument isn't it? Fewer teams, better combinations etc etc.

Here's the graph the ARU released with their initial announcement.

View attachment 9508

My problem with this graph is that it ignores so many other variables..
Like the decline in coaching standards, the rising threat of NRL and AFL in poaching young rugby players, the increase in the number of Aussies leaving to play overseas each year,'the increased standard of rugby professionalism in New Zealand and the gap with Australia..

They've painted a picture that cutting a team will solve issues, but I don't understand how...will players be paid more to prevent them from heading overseas, will thete be extra funding to retain the best young players, will more be invested in improving coaching at all levels, will grassroots get a boost.

Reg, I don't expect you to have these answers, but these are the type of answers the ARU should be providing to the fans to explain and justify their actions.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I am a rugby tragic who started playing the game as soon as I could catch a ball

Can you still catch one?
How are you placed for work in February 2018?