The Israel Folau saga

[gel]

Please.

Everyone.

If you're gonna bother posting (particularly quoting or responding to others), slow down and actually read the words that others are typing FFS.

 

[Gnostic]

Thanks Gnostic - amusing that my Apple auto-correct insists on changing your user name.



The modern social media approach is to shout down loudly any dissenting opinion sophistry. It’s not all fascile of course, but the combination is often an intentional drowning of dissent from the zeitgeist.



IF’s actually are, to me, repugnant. And between you and I, Gnostic, I think there is a threshold where some certain religious views cross a line and we should NOT be tolerant. I am not at all sure that IF has crossed it, but it’s a perhaps. And how you set that boundary is complex both in ethics and jurisprudence.



The conviction by many here, that IF has made a clear transgression - I don’t feel is an accurate summary at all.



Time will tell.

This point is the one I fear that is being lost. The point in your second paragraph tends to control any debate and all dissenting opinion tends to get drowned out and/or moderator-ed out in mainstream social media.

My point of the mob rule is apt when you consider the crowd reaction to Billy Vunipola in a recent game. I think more and more, unless a tolerant narrative defending freedom is put forward soon and dominantly, defending all speech not inciting violence or other discriminatory actions, is not taken early no traction will be gained and maintained and no debate can be had.

 

[Gnostic]

Haskell - one of the dirtiest players in modern rugby having an opinion. Good on him for having an opinion, the fact I think he is a thug who should have been banned from the game for significant periods for various acts of thuggery on the field and he is an absolute hypocrite doesn't remove his right to hold his opinion.

This is an example of how social media has become an echo chamber to reinforce a mob censorship.

 

[Slim 293]

Barnaby Joyce saying Nixon pursued communists less than RugbyAU has gone after Folau

This is the guy that made his name destroying people on the house unamerican activities committee alongside Joe McCarthy and using terms like Red China, and staring down soviet leaders like Kruschev

Great comparison and a sad indictment on the ability to share ideas in 2019.

If the beetrooter wants to get his fat red face back in the media he should have gone further and made an even more ludicrous comparison.......... let’s say 9/11, or the holocaust?

Actually, it’s Easter! Barnaby missed the perfect opportunity to compare Folau to Jesus.........

Give him a few more days and it’ll be the plight of our Anzacs.........

 

[Kenny Powers]

Why hasn't Instagram closed Israel Folau's account and deleted all posts?

Don't disagree that his comments are hurtful. I imagine Instagram only react to hateful comments.

This is very much a corporate compliance message. Is anyone willing to put pressure on Instagram to delete the posts be they individuals or corporate's. Will Rugby Australia stop using Instagram, have they requested Insatgram take down the post as they are offended?

 

[Slim 293]

Why hasn't Instagram closed Israel Folau's account and deleted all posts?

Don't disagree that his comments are hurtful. I imagine Instagram only react to hateful comments.

This is very much a corporate compliance message. Is anyone willing to put pressure on Instagram to delete the posts be they individuals or corporate's. Will Rugby Australia stop using Instagram, have they requested Insatgram take down the post as they are offended?

Instagram doesn’t answer to RA?

What they allow on their platforms is a separate issue?

 

[Adam84]

Instagram allows some pretty graphic R-rated material and other bloggers/trolls border-lining on extremism, they wouldn't touch Folau

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

D-day set down for May 4 with May 5 set also aside in case it takes two days.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby...49/israel-folau-conduct-hearing-set-for-may-4

I see the guy arguing RA's case is the same guy they used for the Force stoush & that IF has hired Hayne's lawyer.

 

[sidelineview]

Yes it is, I merely pointing out that you bringing in Islam, and ok Jews etc has nothing whatever to do with what Izzy did or didn't do wrong, and how far off the track everyone is getting, even Gnostic is saying that one of the defnces is against hate speech, I have heard absolutely noone from RA accusing him of hate speech, merely what his rights are regarding social media posts while he employed by RA.
If you want to go off track what happened to the Aussie soldier who made comments about gays in the army? He was booted out took it to court and was booted out there too. That has more in common than what Jews, Muslims etc thinks etc which has nothing to do with this case!

Go back and read my post. I replied to someone else's post that mentioned Jews and Muslims etc in the context of who would and wouldn't be offended.
Get your facts straight.

 

[Quick Hands]

One of the side effects of Izzy's crusade is the damage that it does to more mainstream Christian denominations.


The really sad thing is that the Bible contains enough material to allow almost any assertion to be made and backed up by an obscure verse.


I have been through an awful experience in which members of the same congregation attacked each other using biblical verses as their tools.

That's essentially his problem. He has no theological training and is misguided rather than deliberately offensive, mainly because he's using isolated Bible passages to over-simplify complex matters of belief and faith.

 

[Dan54]

Go back and read my post. I replied to someone else's post that mentioned Jews and Muslims etc in the context of who would and wouldn't be offended.
Get your facts straight.

Stand by what I said, wasn't trying to get at you in particular, but showing how outside the box most are getting, and so I appreciate your concern, but my facts are still straight. Anyway end of easter, so I back to work tomorrow, so shouldn't be bored enough to post on this until after 4th of May when we know what's happening, and who are right and wrong!

 

[Quick Hands]

D-day set down for May 4 with May 5 set also aside in case it takes two days.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby...49/israel-folau-conduct-hearing-set-for-may-4

I see the guy arguing RA's case is the same guy they used for the Force stoush & that IF has hired Hayne's lawyer.

Folau should have this guy defending him.

He's at least written one of the more balanced columns about this.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby...bies-star-is-a-legal-and-moral-minefield?rm=m

 

[Ignoto]

Folau should have this guy defending him.

He's at least written one of the more balanced columns about this.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby...bies-star-is-a-legal-and-moral-minefield?rm=m

Well, the author was a NSW Supreme Court judge so there’s not too many more qualified potential advocates.

Any way I agree with all of the article outside of
“Clearly the intent is to whole-heartedly "include" the gay community in the rugby movement. But is its intention to "exclude" traditional Christian and other religious beliefs?”

The RA has demonstrated clearly that you can practise Christian and other religious beliefs so long as it sends a positive and inclusive message. Folau has done many posts that meet this criteria (same with others) and it hasn’t drawn any issues by their employer or the general public.

 

[Gnostic]

Well, the author was a NSW Supreme Court judge so there’s not too many more qualified potential advocates.



Any way I agree with all of the article outside of

“Clearly the intent is to whole-heartedly "include" the gay community in the rugby movement. But is its intention to "exclude" traditional Christian and other religious beliefs?”



The RA has demonstrated clearly that you can practise Christian and other religious beliefs so long as it sends a positive and inclusive message. Folau has done many posts that meet this criteria (same with others) and it hasn’t drawn any issues by their employer or the general public.

And just how have they sent this message? Will RA determine what parts of the Faith's gospel can be quoted and what not? Will RA determine which sects can speak and which not, will one have to adhere to an approved narrative?

This is a complete minefield, and one that RA could have avoided completely if they had controlled the narrative themselves and narrowed the focus to one of use of Social Media in a manner previously agreed to be one not in the interests of all parties. Instead they knowingly and repeatedly bought into a debate on moral and ethical grounds where they are on extremely shaky ground. They then compounded their managerial failure by expressing the opinion and appearing with senior players including the Captain of the Tahs and Wallabies saying that essentially Folau will not play again. The incompetence is absolutely breath-taking. As a Rugby thread this is where the discussion should be, this total incompetence of those paid multiples of the median wage to manage the game for the good of ALL involved is beyond belief. Regardless of outcome IMO the entire executive should stand down,/be sacked this farce after the Beale saga exposed the shocking nature of the 'Code of Conduct" and RUPA and then the Force matter. These people are worse than useless, they are a blight on the game and honestly its a wonder they can actually "manage" to breathe without assistance.

 

[Ignoto]

And just how have they sent this message? Will RA determine what parts of the Faith's gospel can be quoted and what not? Will RA determine which sects can speak and which not, will one have to adhere to an approved narrative?

This is a complete minefield, and one that RA could have avoided completely if they had controlled the narrative themselves and narrowed the focus to one of use of Social Media in a manner previously agreed to be one not in the interests of all parties.

I/We have absolutely no idea what internal messaging RA have sent around to all employees and what they have directed towards Israel especially after they recently had a contract renewal.

From those who are closer to the contracting of players, they've specifically mentioned that the EBA between RA and RUPA stipulates that all player contracts have to be the same. Therefore, the inclusion of a social media clause cannot/was not specified in Israel's contract.

I would daresay, Israel knew what was and was not acceptable to say after the first incident. I would imagine RA have expressed this to him during the first incident and then subsequently during the renewal of his contract. Again, I don't know anything more than what's presented in the papers and here.

I do agree with you that in the past, RA have made a colossal mess of these things and I am still extremely bitter about the Beale handling (in all incidents). However, I'm not ready to blame them for this particular mess just yet until the CoC hearing is complete. It's entirely possible that most of the points being argued on this site have been covered by RA which is why they moved so swiftly and feel so strongly about their prospective chances.

 

[Quick Hands]

The RA has demonstrated clearly that you can practise Christian and other religious beliefs so long as it sends a positive and inclusive message.

But that's the sting in the tail. What theological training do the board and CEO of RA have? How are they qualified to make religious judgements on anyone? Who decides what is "positive" and "inclusive" and on what basis? Are RA going to establish what parts of each religion are acceptable to them and which parts aren't?

Even a retired Supreme Court judge describes the whole issue as a legal and moral minefield. Why on earth would RA want to try to make themselves the arbiters?

 

[wamberal]

Whatever happens I think we can safely assume that Izzy will never don Wallaby or Waratahs colours again.


Religion should be a unifying factor, not a divisive one. It only becomes divisive when the fundamentalists get to work and spew their intolerant views (and sometimes actions) all over the innocent.


If Izzy had wanted to reach out to those of who need healing, he would have been far more effective to show up at the Wayside Chapel, or the Exodus Foundation, and served the needy.

Henri Nouwen (a priest and theologian) wrote:


"For Jesus there are no countries to be conquered;
no idealogies to be imposed;
no people to be dominated.
There are only children, women, and men to be loved".


I think Nouwen is a fair bit closer to the mark than Izzy.

 

[Derpus]

Sure wish the scheduled the hearing sooner. two more weeks of this bullshit? no thanks.

 

[Adam84]

no point discussing this issue anymore really, people have a formed opinion of the subject by now, you're not going to convince them to change it..

Everyone thinks their opinion is the right one

 

[wamberal]

Thank goodness we do not all agree with each other. There would be nothing to talk about.